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2021-06-18, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
This is one of mine. In addition to my character sheet, I have this as well, every time combat starts.
Fighter 2 / Paladin 3
Spoiler: Combat SheetAction Surge (1/rest). Gain an additional Action on your turn!!!
Divine Smite. When you hit with a Melee attack, use a spell slot to deal extra radiant damage, plus more damage to Undead and Fiends.
Channel Divinity (1/rest)** You can choose which one to use.
ACTIONS
Divine Sense (3/day). Self, 60 ft. Know the location of Celestials, Fiends and Undead.
Lay on Hands (15/day). (S) Touch. Heal up to the maximum amount. Also can cure Poison and Disease.
**Abjure Enemy. (VSM). 60 ft. Target makes WIS save or Frightened. Can't move. Fiends and Undead get Disadvantage. 1 minute.
BONUS ACTIONS
Two-Weapon Fighting. Attack using your other weapon, but only if both weapons are Light.
Second Wind (1/rest). Heal 1d10+2 HPs.
**Vow of Enmity. (V) 10 ft. Gain advantage on attack rolls for a minute. lol.
REACTIONS (One, until the end of your next turn)
Oppurtunity Attack. Attack a creature that runs away from you.
Fighting Style; Protection. Imposes disadvantage on a creature's attack rolls.
...That's a thing I just made for myself.
When I DM (which is all the time, now), I sometimes make 'combat sheets' for players who make complicated characters that they don't know how to use (because they got the build off the 'net).
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2021-06-18, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Some players are better than others, but...
There are a couple of systemic things with 5e that do not help.
1) Character advancement is too fast and players generally do not get a lot of time at any level develop strategies for one skill set before adding more abilities.
2) The default character sheets are garbage, not just bad, garbage. Most of the space on the first page is taken up by things that are absolutely useless in a pressure situation: background info, equipment lists, etc. The tiny box with about 4 lines and 3 columns for attacks should be at least 1/3 of the page, and would be better if it was 1/2. This would provide room for the most common 95% of attacks, spells, turning, etc for characters up to tier 3. The second thing that needs to be there is totally missing: a table listing Bonus Actions and Reactions with triggers. With just these 2 things in front of them I think most players wouldn't mess up so much and would probably make decisions quicker as well.
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2021-06-19, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2018
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
If the great Matt Mercer couldn't solve this, can anyone?
I'm not a CR fan, really only started because covid, but this very problem among certain cast members has caused me actively dislike the show on many occasions. They finally wrapped and I eventually caught up, and I got a great laugh when, after somebody cast bless or something, and half of them go, "what does that do again?" - somebody actually said, "the same thing it has done for the last 140 episodes." I'm glad it's over.
Losing your cognitive grasp of your character's capabilities probably happens to every player at some point. It may be partly that some people lack the capacity to process so many options under pressure, and it can certainly be due to a lack of preparation. A lot of it, in my opinion, does have to do with the interface, whether using official sheets or the layout of DNDBeyond, etc., and few people really even question whether there exists a better way. I'm not trying to paint those options as bad, just that they're clearly not for everyone. The most effective player at my table uses no sheet or app at all, but a full on notebook. He has not only written out every spell at his sorcerer's disposal, but also listed out appropriate uses for them. I'm not sure how you would teach others to follow a like example, and it's frustrating to me to have to try to bolster the other players sometimes without unduly restricting him. But that would be my strongest suggestion: encourage them to try something, anything else to organize their character before them, until they find a way that best suits their understanding and makes it easier to find the relevant information when they need to.“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-06-19, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2018
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2021-06-19, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
I looked around on the DM's Guild, and didn't find any character sheets like this.
I think for "Cast a Spell" I might add a summary of "Buff allies, Heal allies, Debuff enemies, Damage enemies, Summon, Mobility, Manipulate Environment" to get casters thinking outside their box.
On the DM's Guild, I did run across a character sheet made with OpenDyslexic font. My wife was happy to hear that the font existed. I'd never heard of it before now.Things published on DM's Guild
Campaign Logs:
Baldur's Gate 2 (ongoing)
Castle Dracula (Castlevania)
Against the Idol of the Sun (high level hexcrawl)
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2021-06-19, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- X/Z 12,550,821
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Spoiler: Just me ranting about having a similar problem(Rant, my players sometimes have a similar problem)
As a person that tends to have the exact inverse problem (Unable NOT to try and find the best solution every problem, regardless of RP and IC Int score, as well as the tendency to hoard abilities, items, and features to a fault), situations like this deal 1d12 psychic damage to me at the end of each turn. I understand forgetting something you had in the moment, it happens to everyone , especially if you stuff your bag of tricks overfull like I do. I understand choice paralysis. What I don't understand is how one can disengage like this and then be surprised by the outcome every time. Something something the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting something to change. It just....it makes me mad.
Like. Why are you here???? Do you even care??? Did you even read a single line of the PHB?? What is making it so hard to connect the dots?? WHY AREN'T YOU EVEN TRYING TO THINK?????
Sigh. Ok, I'm done. I don't mean to be mean, I just had to get it out. /Rant.
On the more constructive side, I do have some suggestions that have worked for me somewhat. My group is slowly improving, they all at least have default actions they're used to taking.
At the beginning of someone's turn, I prompt them with "X just happened. What will you do?", where X is what the character just before them did.
If they waffle with an expected "uh.....what can I do", you can prompt them further with "What are your class features? You could attack. You could cast a spell. You could move. Or something else, if you like."
If they still seem lost, it's important to give them a moment to try and recover on their own. If they are still unable, reinform them of the current situation, ie "You're attacking an orc camp at night. It is dark. You are on top of the wall and have encountered guards. One is near an alarm, one is blocking your path. What will you do?"
If a player makes an egregiously bad decision, you have two choices. The first is best when the bad choice stems from misunderstanding due to lack of information (and often a lack of even the most basic questions). For example, recalling the previous example, if nobody tries to stop the guard near the alarm from setting it off, you could say "Note that there IS a guard directly beside the alarm. You are all attacking the guard that is not."
If however, the bad choice stems from a simple lack of critical thinking, you should let it happen, to establish that poor choices result in consequences. Recalling the previous example again, a player has decided to cast Thunderwave to toss aside the blocking guard. A valid response would be "You cast Thunderwave. The guard is knocked away by the concussive force. As the terrific explosion of sonic energy you created echos through the camp, you hear shouts of alarm, and horns. It seems you have awoken the orc camp and made excruciatingly clear what is happening, and where."
Another solution to poorly considered choices, short of killing the player in question, is to hand them a lasting injury. Sever a limb, perhaps. Cause a wound infection. Give them frostbite. When you do, of course, it must only be in circumstances where it is excruciatingly clear that they wanted to go through with their decision, that they could've backed out at any point, and that this is simply the direct result of their actions. There should be a path to recovery, of course, but there should be no way around carrying the weight of the injury for a time.
If you keep your players constantly informed about the current state of affairs, that helps to keep them engaged, and with any luck, eventually, they'll start remembering how to do things on their own. Essentially, don't give openings to disengage.
If that doesn't help (fair warning, it may take some time, be patient), then consider implementing a combat timer to force engagement, or at least to periodically remind a lagging player that they're burning time and combat must proceed.
If you've done your utmost in the other areas and the problem persists, then you have full license to simply ask players what their problems are, and how you can help. You can't be expected to play their characters for them forever.
Make certain, of course, that they understand they have choices outside of what you recommend - at the end of the day, everything they do is their choice, not yours. To assist this, I make liberal use of "So you want to X, is that right? That's what you're going to do?" where X is what they decided on doing.
This is all from a DM perspective of course. Some of these tricks may work from a player perspective as well, but some may not. On the other hand, a player perspective opens the opportunity to simply play a character who takes leadership (as long as you consistently make sure that it's ok). Think of a general that sets up the battle field, asking some to flank, asking wizards to cast certain spells, etc. Of course, when they succeed, a good commander must recognize the prowess of his soldiers. Be sure to raise them up when you give commands, not bring them down.
That's about all. Just keep everyone informed. Make sure they know what's happening, and what they're capable of.Sometimes, I have strong opinions on seemingly inconsequential matters.
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2021-06-19, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
If they're doing this more than once a combat, they should have a sheet in front of them that tells them what they can do:
Attack
Cast a Spell
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Search
Use an Object
Ready
Then, if you have a complicated class or character, you would then insert your class actions into your actions list. Then as I said, you put in your Bonus Actions and Reactions, too. This list can get quite long at higher levels...And because that list of Actions is so long, is exactly why you need it as a reference in the first place.
Unfortunately, it's very, very unlikely that your players will take it upon themselves to do this. You, the DM, have to do this.
If they still seem lost, it's important to give them a moment to try and recover on their own...
'There is a hostile 35 ft. away, what do you do?' is all that's necessary.
If you keep your players constantly informed about the current state of affairs...
If that doesn't help (fair warning, it may take some time, be patient), then consider implementing a combat timer to force engagement
I would love to force a combat timer on my experienced players. But I know that they wouldn't like it.
Putting a combat timer on inexperienced players!? ...Just...No.
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2021-06-21, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-06-21, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
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2021-06-21, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
I made a first pass at an Action-Oriented Reference sheet.
This is not a character sheet replacement, but a supplement to sit on top of the character sheet. Gold, how skills are calculated, spell slots, detailed racial features, etc., aren't on here.
It's designed for people to hand-write in all their other stuff (casters with Shield for reactions, Monks put in Deflect Arrows, Martial arts, etc.). I specifically included an Attack Rider section to help people remember Smites, Stunning Fists, etc.
Use-Activate Items is for potions, wands, items that cast a spell X/day, magic arrows, etc. I'm not sure how many of these the party has picked up and forgotten, but there have been quite a few.
Did I miss anything important?Last edited by J-H; 2021-06-21 at 11:42 AM.
Things published on DM's Guild
Campaign Logs:
Baldur's Gate 2 (ongoing)
Castle Dracula (Castlevania)
Against the Idol of the Sun (high level hexcrawl)
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2021-06-22, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
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2021-06-22, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2016
- Location
- Netherlands
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Very nice!
One thing I see is the description of the 'Disengage' action. It seems to imply that you can disengage from an enemy, but if you then run past another enemy they get an OA (something I've seen happen in several streamed games on YT). I would instead simply write 'Prevent opportunity attacks' (perhaps with 'for this turn' or something)
Another is that the wording of 'Move' doesn't indicate that you can split up into multiple moves; it even seems to imply that 'move' is an atomic action.
Both of these are (I think) common rule misunderstandings, so making them specific would seem wise.
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2021-06-22, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2020
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
I wonder if a flow chart would be helpful, that way you could point out different options in different scenarios. A Rogue is a good example, since they have so many options with Cunning Action, you could do something like: Can you reach the opponent after moving?->No->BA Dash->Attack, Can you reach the opponent after moving?->Yes->BA Aim->Attack
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2021-06-22, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Things published on DM's Guild
Campaign Logs:
Baldur's Gate 2 (ongoing)
Castle Dracula (Castlevania)
Against the Idol of the Sun (high level hexcrawl)
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2021-06-29, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
- Location
- Bozeman MT
- Gender
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
Player Cheat sheet that outlines what you can do on your turn (action, bonus action, move, interaction, and reaction). Mine also has move costs, light sources, resting, action and interaction examples, healing potion amounts, cover, and other little stuff. All fits nicely on one page and I make sure one is handy while playing. My players still try to take 5' steps, every single combat.
Abilities by rest and abilities by action. My custom character sheet has both. Abilities by rest helps track usage and makes recovery easy. Abilities by action simply lists out all bonus actions and reactions, and nonstandard actions. This makes them all very easy to reference round to round. My sheet also have a lot of room for features.
I also ask my players if they are done with their turn and remind them they didn't spend their bonus action. I don't usually tell them "you could have done x" with the bonus action. I leave that up to them.
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2021-07-01, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping
I feel like there has to be middle ground in between insulting someone and letting your resentment simmer. Something like...
"It bothers me how often you slow down the game with how long it takes you to decide what to do on your turn. Could you please try to be better prepared, and to have a few simple default actions to use if no other opportunity obviously presents itself? I feel like you've been taking away from everyone's fun a little by disrupting the smooth flow of action."
Something like that? Maybe?