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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    This is one of mine. In addition to my character sheet, I have this as well, every time combat starts.

    Fighter 2 / Paladin 3

    Spoiler: Combat Sheet
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    Action Surge (1/rest). Gain an additional Action on your turn!!!

    Divine Smite. When you hit with a Melee attack, use a spell slot to deal extra radiant damage, plus more damage to Undead and Fiends.

    Channel Divinity (1/rest)** You can choose which one to use.

    ACTIONS
    Divine Sense (3/day). Self, 60 ft. Know the location of Celestials, Fiends and Undead.
    Lay on Hands (15/day). (S) Touch. Heal up to the maximum amount. Also can cure Poison and Disease.
    **Abjure Enemy. (VSM). 60 ft. Target makes WIS save or Frightened. Can't move. Fiends and Undead get Disadvantage. 1 minute.

    BONUS ACTIONS
    Two-Weapon Fighting. Attack using your other weapon, but only if both weapons are Light.
    Second Wind (1/rest). Heal 1d10+2 HPs.
    **Vow of Enmity. (V) 10 ft. Gain advantage on attack rolls for a minute. lol.

    REACTIONS (One, until the end of your next turn)
    Oppurtunity Attack. Attack a creature that runs away from you.
    Fighting Style; Protection. Imposes disadvantage on a creature's attack rolls.


    ...That's a thing I just made for myself.

    When I DM (which is all the time, now), I sometimes make 'combat sheets' for players who make complicated characters that they don't know how to use (because they got the build off the 'net).
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-06-18 at 10:34 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Some players are better than others, but...
    There are a couple of systemic things with 5e that do not help.
    1) Character advancement is too fast and players generally do not get a lot of time at any level develop strategies for one skill set before adding more abilities.
    2) The default character sheets are garbage, not just bad, garbage. Most of the space on the first page is taken up by things that are absolutely useless in a pressure situation: background info, equipment lists, etc. The tiny box with about 4 lines and 3 columns for attacks should be at least 1/3 of the page, and would be better if it was 1/2. This would provide room for the most common 95% of attacks, spells, turning, etc for characters up to tier 3. The second thing that needs to be there is totally missing: a table listing Bonus Actions and Reactions with triggers. With just these 2 things in front of them I think most players wouldn't mess up so much and would probably make decisions quicker as well.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    If the great Matt Mercer couldn't solve this, can anyone?

    I'm not a CR fan, really only started because covid, but this very problem among certain cast members has caused me actively dislike the show on many occasions. They finally wrapped and I eventually caught up, and I got a great laugh when, after somebody cast bless or something, and half of them go, "what does that do again?" - somebody actually said, "the same thing it has done for the last 140 episodes." I'm glad it's over.

    Losing your cognitive grasp of your character's capabilities probably happens to every player at some point. It may be partly that some people lack the capacity to process so many options under pressure, and it can certainly be due to a lack of preparation. A lot of it, in my opinion, does have to do with the interface, whether using official sheets or the layout of DNDBeyond, etc., and few people really even question whether there exists a better way. I'm not trying to paint those options as bad, just that they're clearly not for everyone. The most effective player at my table uses no sheet or app at all, but a full on notebook. He has not only written out every spell at his sorcerer's disposal, but also listed out appropriate uses for them. I'm not sure how you would teach others to follow a like example, and it's frustrating to me to have to try to bolster the other players sometimes without unduly restricting him. But that would be my strongest suggestion: encourage them to try something, anything else to organize their character before them, until they find a way that best suits their understanding and makes it easier to find the relevant information when they need to.
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”
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  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Im away from any real material but it's basically two circles with one inside the other or beside each other. The inner one has spell slots and the outside one is my spells prepared that are color coded by casting time and both can spin. I can work from one center point better than a list so it's like a mind map.
    I can basically picture this, but I'd still love it if you could post a picture of PDF of the actual thing. Because, that's awesome!

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    J-H's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    This is one of mine. In addition to my character sheet, I have this as well, every time combat starts.

    ...That's a thing I just made for myself.

    When I DM (which is all the time, now), I sometimes make 'combat sheets' for players who make complicated characters that they don't know how to use (because they got the build off the 'net).
    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    The default character sheets are garbage, not just bad, garbage. Most of the space on the first page is taken up by things that are absolutely useless in a pressure situation: background info, equipment lists, etc. The tiny box with about 4 lines and 3 columns for attacks should be at least 1/3 of the page, and would be better if it was 1/2. This would provide room for the most common 95% of attacks, spells, turning, etc for characters up to tier 3. The second thing that needs to be there is totally missing: a table listing Bonus Actions and Reactions with triggers. With just these 2 things in front of them I think most players wouldn't mess up so much and would probably make decisions quicker as well.
    I looked around on the DM's Guild, and didn't find any character sheets like this.
    I think for "Cast a Spell" I might add a summary of "Buff allies, Heal allies, Debuff enemies, Damage enemies, Summon, Mobility, Manipulate Environment" to get casters thinking outside their box.

    On the DM's Guild, I did run across a character sheet made with OpenDyslexic font. My wife was happy to hear that the font existed. I'd never heard of it before now.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Phhase's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Spoiler: Just me ranting about having a similar problem
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    (Rant, my players sometimes have a similar problem)

    As a person that tends to have the exact inverse problem (Unable NOT to try and find the best solution every problem, regardless of RP and IC Int score, as well as the tendency to hoard abilities, items, and features to a fault), situations like this deal 1d12 psychic damage to me at the end of each turn. I understand forgetting something you had in the moment, it happens to everyone , especially if you stuff your bag of tricks overfull like I do. I understand choice paralysis. What I don't understand is how one can disengage like this and then be surprised by the outcome every time. Something something the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting something to change. It just....it makes me mad.

    Like. Why are you here???? Do you even care??? Did you even read a single line of the PHB?? What is making it so hard to connect the dots?? WHY AREN'T YOU EVEN TRYING TO THINK?????


    Sigh. Ok, I'm done. I don't mean to be mean, I just had to get it out. /Rant.


    On the more constructive side, I do have some suggestions that have worked for me somewhat. My group is slowly improving, they all at least have default actions they're used to taking.

    At the beginning of someone's turn, I prompt them with "X just happened. What will you do?", where X is what the character just before them did.

    If they waffle with an expected "uh.....what can I do", you can prompt them further with "What are your class features? You could attack. You could cast a spell. You could move. Or something else, if you like."

    If they still seem lost, it's important to give them a moment to try and recover on their own. If they are still unable, reinform them of the current situation, ie "You're attacking an orc camp at night. It is dark. You are on top of the wall and have encountered guards. One is near an alarm, one is blocking your path. What will you do?"

    If a player makes an egregiously bad decision, you have two choices. The first is best when the bad choice stems from misunderstanding due to lack of information (and often a lack of even the most basic questions). For example, recalling the previous example, if nobody tries to stop the guard near the alarm from setting it off, you could say "Note that there IS a guard directly beside the alarm. You are all attacking the guard that is not."

    If however, the bad choice stems from a simple lack of critical thinking, you should let it happen, to establish that poor choices result in consequences. Recalling the previous example again, a player has decided to cast Thunderwave to toss aside the blocking guard. A valid response would be "You cast Thunderwave. The guard is knocked away by the concussive force. As the terrific explosion of sonic energy you created echos through the camp, you hear shouts of alarm, and horns. It seems you have awoken the orc camp and made excruciatingly clear what is happening, and where."

    Another solution to poorly considered choices, short of killing the player in question, is to hand them a lasting injury. Sever a limb, perhaps. Cause a wound infection. Give them frostbite. When you do, of course, it must only be in circumstances where it is excruciatingly clear that they wanted to go through with their decision, that they could've backed out at any point, and that this is simply the direct result of their actions. There should be a path to recovery, of course, but there should be no way around carrying the weight of the injury for a time.

    If you keep your players constantly informed about the current state of affairs, that helps to keep them engaged, and with any luck, eventually, they'll start remembering how to do things on their own. Essentially, don't give openings to disengage.

    If that doesn't help (fair warning, it may take some time, be patient), then consider implementing a combat timer to force engagement, or at least to periodically remind a lagging player that they're burning time and combat must proceed.

    If you've done your utmost in the other areas and the problem persists, then you have full license to simply ask players what their problems are, and how you can help. You can't be expected to play their characters for them forever.

    Make certain, of course, that they understand they have choices outside of what you recommend - at the end of the day, everything they do is their choice, not yours. To assist this, I make liberal use of "So you want to X, is that right? That's what you're going to do?" where X is what they decided on doing.

    This is all from a DM perspective of course. Some of these tricks may work from a player perspective as well, but some may not. On the other hand, a player perspective opens the opportunity to simply play a character who takes leadership (as long as you consistently make sure that it's ok). Think of a general that sets up the battle field, asking some to flank, asking wizards to cast certain spells, etc. Of course, when they succeed, a good commander must recognize the prowess of his soldiers. Be sure to raise them up when you give commands, not bring them down.

    That's about all. Just keep everyone informed. Make sure they know what's happening, and what they're capable of.
    Sometimes, I have strong opinions on seemingly inconsequential matters.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Phhase View Post
    If they waffle with an expected "uh.....what can I do", you can prompt them further with "What are your class features? You could attack. You could cast a spell. You could move. Or something else, if you like."
    If they're doing this more than once a combat, they should have a sheet in front of them that tells them what they can do:

    Attack
    Cast a Spell

    Dash
    Disengage
    Dodge

    Help
    Hide
    Search

    Use an Object

    Ready

    Then, if you have a complicated class or character, you would then insert your class actions into your actions list. Then as I said, you put in your Bonus Actions and Reactions, too. This list can get quite long at higher levels...And because that list of Actions is so long, is exactly why you need it as a reference in the first place.

    Unfortunately, it's very, very unlikely that your players will take it upon themselves to do this. You, the DM, have to do this.

    If they still seem lost, it's important to give them a moment to try and recover on their own...
    If they're not recovering, it's because your bombarding them with complicated information:
    'There is a hostile 35 ft. away, what do you do?' is all that's necessary.

    If you keep your players constantly informed about the current state of affairs...
    If a player is not engaged, then you need to keep them constantly informed about the current state of their character.

    If that doesn't help (fair warning, it may take some time, be patient), then consider implementing a combat timer to force engagement
    IMO, that's the worst possible option. All's that does is cause stress, and make a player distressed about how long they take, causing them to ignore their character, and instead, defaulting to choices that they know; Which will lead to dumb things like a Wizard taking an Attack action, instead of casting Fire Bolt. Because they now know that combat isn't about making the correct choices, it's about making fast choices. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But if your players are disengaging, then forcing them to make decisions that they don't entirely understand ain't it, chief.

    I would love to force a combat timer on my experienced players. But I know that they wouldn't like it.
    Putting a combat timer on inexperienced players!? ...Just...No.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    If they're doing this more than once a combat, they should have a sheet in front of them that tells them what they can do:

    Attack
    Cast a Spell

    Dash
    Disengage
    Dodge

    Help
    Hide
    Search

    Use an Object

    Ready
    Or you can put it on the DM screen, on the side facing the players, so that they can all see it. Next to it have:
    Action, Move, Interact with object (1 free), Bonus Action, Reaction as a reminder of the five elements of action economy.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Or you can put it on the DM screen, on the side facing the players, so that they can all see it. Next to it have:
    Action, Move, Interact with object (1 free), Bonus Action, Reaction as a reminder of the five elements of action economy.
    I think this sort of thing is best on each player's sheet, or at least in their space. They're not looking at (and squinting to read) the DM screen while thinking about their turns.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    J-H's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    I made a first pass at an Action-Oriented Reference sheet.
    This is not a character sheet replacement, but a supplement to sit on top of the character sheet. Gold, how skills are calculated, spell slots, detailed racial features, etc., aren't on here.

    Spoiler: big
    Show




    It's designed for people to hand-write in all their other stuff (casters with Shield for reactions, Monks put in Deflect Arrows, Martial arts, etc.). I specifically included an Attack Rider section to help people remember Smites, Stunning Fists, etc.

    Use-Activate Items is for potions, wands, items that cast a spell X/day, magic arrows, etc. I'm not sure how many of these the party has picked up and forgotten, but there have been quite a few.

    Did I miss anything important?
    Last edited by J-H; 2021-06-21 at 11:42 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Did I miss anything important?
    I can't spot anything off the top of my head.

    The only thing I can spot is Man Dice - more of my characters need to have Man Dice. I don't know what they are or how you get them. But I want them.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    I made a first pass at an Action-Oriented Reference sheet.
    This is not a character sheet replacement, but a supplement to sit on top of the character sheet. Gold, how skills are calculated, spell slots, detailed racial features, etc., aren't on here.

    It's designed for people to hand-write in all their other stuff (casters with Shield for reactions, Monks put in Deflect Arrows, Martial arts, etc.). I specifically included an Attack Rider section to help people remember Smites, Stunning Fists, etc.

    Use-Activate Items is for potions, wands, items that cast a spell X/day, magic arrows, etc. I'm not sure how many of these the party has picked up and forgotten, but there have been quite a few.

    Did I miss anything important?
    Very nice!

    One thing I see is the description of the 'Disengage' action. It seems to imply that you can disengage from an enemy, but if you then run past another enemy they get an OA (something I've seen happen in several streamed games on YT). I would instead simply write 'Prevent opportunity attacks' (perhaps with 'for this turn' or something)
    Another is that the wording of 'Move' doesn't indicate that you can split up into multiple moves; it even seems to imply that 'move' is an atomic action.

    Both of these are (I think) common rule misunderstandings, so making them specific would seem wise.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    I wonder if a flow chart would be helpful, that way you could point out different options in different scenarios. A Rogue is a good example, since they have so many options with Cunning Action, you could do something like: Can you reach the opponent after moving?->No->BA Dash->Attack, Can you reach the opponent after moving?->Yes->BA Aim->Attack

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynaert View Post
    Very nice!

    One thing I see is the description of the 'Disengage' action. It seems to imply that you can disengage from an enemy, but if you then run past another enemy they get an OA (something I've seen happen in several streamed games on YT). I would instead simply write 'Prevent opportunity attacks' (perhaps with 'for this turn' or something)
    Another is that the wording of 'Move' doesn't indicate that you can split up into multiple moves; it even seems to imply that 'move' is an atomic action.

    Both of these are (I think) common rule misunderstandings, so making them specific would seem wise.
    Thanks, I have fixed these on my version. Now how do I make it prettified so it looks better at the table?

    Not sure yet.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Player Cheat sheet that outlines what you can do on your turn (action, bonus action, move, interaction, and reaction). Mine also has move costs, light sources, resting, action and interaction examples, healing potion amounts, cover, and other little stuff. All fits nicely on one page and I make sure one is handy while playing. My players still try to take 5' steps, every single combat.

    Abilities by rest and abilities by action. My custom character sheet has both. Abilities by rest helps track usage and makes recovery easy. Abilities by action simply lists out all bonus actions and reactions, and nonstandard actions. This makes them all very easy to reference round to round. My sheet also have a lot of room for features.

    I also ask my players if they are done with their turn and remind them they didn't spend their bonus action. I don't usually tell them "you could have done x" with the bonus action. I leave that up to them.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Devil

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    Default Re: How to handle this problem, and character swapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogun View Post
    My life partner is doing this right now.
    I will be making up a druid cheat sheet, but it irks me-they have been playing since 2nd edition, and know better.
    I wouldn't even care if they were willing to be ineffective, but they are stalling the game searching for what they can do that will be effective.
    If you don't know what to do,cast a cantrip or shoot a crossbow and let's get on with it.
    If the game isn't interesting enough prepare for, maybe don't play?
    Not that I would SAY that.
    I feel like there has to be middle ground in between insulting someone and letting your resentment simmer. Something like...

    "It bothers me how often you slow down the game with how long it takes you to decide what to do on your turn. Could you please try to be better prepared, and to have a few simple default actions to use if no other opportunity obviously presents itself? I feel like you've been taking away from everyone's fun a little by disrupting the smooth flow of action."

    Something like that? Maybe?
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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