Beguilers and Duskblades

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Ok so when do you want to play a beguiler, when you can play a duskblade. I was looking at how simular they are, and that Duskblades seem to be way better. So why would you play beguiler, what is there hook, in the end duskblades can cast more spell, while more heavilly armored. They can quicken spells, and get some spell power, along with nifty SA. They only cool things about beguilers are the ocasional free metamagic feat, and the handbow proficientcy. Just trying to understand two classes i like, and want to understand better. TY in advance.

[Xefas]

Difference of spell selection.

Beguilers cast enchantment/illusion stuff primarily, while Duskblades generally cast spells that enhance their melee abilities or deal damage.

So, if you like manipulation, and you're able to use illusions in creative ways, Beguiler is a good choice.

[Reinboom]

Beguiler: 'Full caster progression'. Trapfinding. Skill capabilities that - since they are prime intelligence - can surpass the rogue. Use Magic Device.
The beguiler's selection of spells increases much much faster than that of the duskblade.

Duskblade: The warrior caster. Does everything you stated except that it's spellcasting nowhere comes close to the beguiler's.

[Green Bean]

Different roles, too. A Duskblade is essentially a magic-based Fighter, while a Beguiler is a magic-based Rogue.

[The_Snark]

They fulfill completely different roles... Duskblades focus pretty much exclusively on dealing damage, with a few other spells useful in combat also present on the list. They're mostly melee characters. Beguilers focus on messing with people's minds and other fun tricks such as illusions and glamers. They are definitely not melee characters, although a daring beguiler could use feinting to help spells out.

They really aren't similar at all, aside from casting spells. Clerics and wizards are more similar, and probably share more spells between their lists, too.

[TheOOB]

Those classes are about as different as two classes can get, sure, they are both hybrids, but thats where the similarities end. A duskblade fills the tank or striker role of a party, a beguiler fills the skill-monkey roll, and to a much lesser extent arcane control(their reliance on enchantments and illusions makes them unable to be a good replacement for a wizard or sorcerer).

The classes work together well sure, but in execution they are worlds apart.

[Nonah_Me]

Slightly off topic, but what feats do you think would be good for a 10th level Human Beg?

I have a character with the following feats, just wondering if I should shuck some of them. I'll highlight the ones I'm least attached to. Also, I'd like to try and stick with Beg. if at all possible, so no 1 level dip into fighter.

Combat Expertese
Improved Counterspell
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Mobile Spellcasting
Improved Feint
Tumbling Feint

Stats are
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22 (+1 at 4th, +1 at 8th, +2 Headband of Int), Wis 11, Cha 15

[CASTLEMIKE]

Slightly off topic, but what feats do you think would be good for a 10th level Human Beg?

I have a character with the following feats, just wondering if I should shuck some of them. I'll highlight the ones I'm least attached to. Also, I'd like to try and stick with Beg. if at all possible, so no 1 level dip into fighter.

Combat Expertese
Improved Counterspell
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Mobile Spellcasting
Improved Feint
Tumbling Feint

Stats are
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22 (+1 at 4th, +1 at 8th, +2 Headband of Int), Wis 11, Cha 15

You would get more out of a single level dip into Factotum - 1 with that Intelliegence and the way Inspiration Points work and recharge. Things like a +6 to Att, Saves or Damage 2/Encounter (More if you take more Font of INspiration Feats) as a Free Action from Cunning Insight plus you also get Cunning Knowledge for skill checks along with picking up Martial weapons proficiency.

I prefer Skill Focus Concentration instead of Combat Casting for a constant +3 vice situational skill check modifier, Not Core and definitely a House Rule but many DMs will let it fulfill the Combat Casting PRC requirements for a PRC but it will depend on your DM.

I'd recommend Adaptive Learning as a Human PC because Factotum makes all skills class skills and Adaptive learning means they will only ever cost your PC 1 SP a rank so it is nice for PRCing or picking up any skill that interests your PC, although if skill checks are glossed over in your campaign this would probably be a bad ideal.

A single dip into Marshal - 1 for Motivate Aura Intelligence could also work for improving your spell DCs +2 before other magic items enhance your Charisma.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Duskblades deal damage, and do it quite well, but that's pretty much it. Beguilers are basically rogues that get a nice selection of illusion/enchantment spells instead of Sneak Attack and high-level abilities. Two totally different things.

Also, Beguilers have a much larger number of Spells Known (they get their whole list, while the Duskblade gets a tiny 1+1/level), and a wider variety of things they can do with the spells. Duskblades basically get a choice of "how do you want to deal damage", with a few minor buff and movement spells thrown in. Beguilers get better defensive and battlefield control spells, mind controls and debuffs. Their one weakness being, of course, that practically everything on their list is Will Negates.

[loopy]

Are Beguilers any good at dealing damage though? Any feats or items you'd suggest for increasing their damage output.

[Fax Celestis]

Are Beguilers any good at dealing damage though? Any feats or items you'd suggest for increasing their damage output.

Beguilers are not damage dealers. My wife is playing one and she's typically the "run up and smash it" type. It's a challenge for her, but she's making it work. The key to a Beguiler's success is inventive use of their spells. For instance, she cast invisibility sphere on herself last session and had all the other party members attack from within the sphere. Because of the way invisibility sphere works, her party members remained invisible as long as she didn't attack. Versus mindless undead, this means that they're pretty much blind.

...of course, next level she's planning on taking a level of Barbarian, Advanced Learning the rage spell, and going to melee-town.

[Person_Man]

The Duskblade really doesn't play like a caster. It uses spells like a Barbarian uses Rage. It's essentially the answer to "I want to physically hit stuff - but with magic!" A common build theme for Gishes that didn't have an elegant way of doing so until the Duskblade. The Duskblade has a huge damage output - but not much else.

The Beguiler is the exact opposite. It's Skill Monkey with a ton of useful toolbox spells. It's the answer to "I want to play a Skill Monkey, but people keep telling me that a Wizard can do everything a Rogue can do, but better - what should I do?" The Beguiler can pretty much do everything BUT deal damage, and has a hard time against mindless enemies, like most undead.

[Tyger]

Its all been said on the OP's question, though it should be pointed out that Beguilers can still be very effective against undead, especially mindless ones. Undead are not immune to the power of all illusions, so any of the Image spells work just fine. And because they are really stupid, (i.e. ultimately stupid actually) a horde of them can be taken out of the fight with a simple Silent Image... one wall of stone illusion all around them = no more aggression. :)

But here's one for Fax...

Did you homebrew a new Invisibility Sphere? Attackers who are beneficiaries of the spell still lose their invsibility upon attacking. And don't get it back either. Of course, you could make a homebrewed Greater Invisibiltiy Sphere that would accomplish this. Would be pretty frigging sweet!

[Frosty]

Beguilers can deal non-lethal damage decently. With Whelm, Whelming Blast, Mass whelm, and Overwhelm, you can deal damage if the enemy fails a will save. Overwhelm is save-or-die.

Only bad part is, Will Negates instead of Will partial.

[Wolfwood2]

Slightly off topic, but what feats do you think would be good for a 10th level Human Beg?

I have a character with the following feats, just wondering if I should shuck some of them. I'll highlight the ones I'm least attached to. Also, I'd like to try and stick with Beg. if at all possible, so no 1 level dip into fighter.

Combat Expertese
Improved Counterspell
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Mobile Spellcasting
Improved Feint
Tumbling Feint

Stats are
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22 (+1 at 4th, +1 at 8th, +2 Headband of Int), Wis 11, Cha 15

Why all this focus on feinting? Feinting is okay since you can be the Suprise casting DC boost from it, but there are other ways to do that. Be Invisible for one. Feinting also puts you in the middle of melee combat, and as a caster you should stay in the back if possible.

He's where I'm going with my human Beguiler (currently 5th level). I am going to dip one level into Mindbender at 6th for the Telepathy, then go back to straight Beguiler. It doesn't hurt my spell progression at all.

Human - Spell Focus: Enchantment
1st - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Unsettling enchantment
6th - Mindsight (Lords of Madness)
9th - Haven't decided yet.

Take 'Distract Assailant' (Spell Compendium) with your advanced learning, and you can spam 1st level spells at your opponent as a swift action. With Unsettling Enchantment they take a -2 to attack and AC for one round, even if they make the save.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

ok so the difference is like the difference between a fighter and a rogue... it's a difference but not that big of one. AND before i get spamed saying there's a huge difference, to my thinking they both have very unique qualities, and are both special in there own way. it's not you it's me...

[Kurald Galain]

It's probably all been said already, but note that while the Duskblade can cast more spells per day, he knows only two spells plus one per level - whereas the Beguiler knows every single spell on his spell list. That's a lot more versatility.

Also, the Beguiler has better skills, and has several things to do outside combat (like being party face, or trapfinder, or stealthing). The Duskblade does one thing - fighting. Mind you, he does it very well, and with style. But it is all he does.

[Nonah_Me]

Take 'Distract Assailant' (Spell Compendium) with your advanced learning, and you can spam 1st level spells at your opponent as a swift action. With Unsettling Enchantment they take a -2 to attack and AC for one round, even if they make the save.

I actually did this, but for simple "zomg awesome" reasons. I can do without the feinting stuff now.

Ach, now what to pick!? Thanks.

[Frosty]

Spell Focus (Enchantment)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spell Focus (Enchantment)

Twice. White text.