Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[Psyren]

I'm willing to bet a hefty sum that some of these threads get picked up in Season 2, some in other media (multiverse movies/games/shows etc), and some even further down the line.

We might see nods to them in Loki 2, No Way Home, all kinds of other places.

Expecting Season 1 of the idea lab to tie up every major dangling thread in a neat bow isn't just unrealistic, it's wasteful.

[Talakeal]

For the record, I really like What If. I just think it needs to pick a lane and decide if it wants to be self contained stories or continuing sagas.

Forcing the writers to pick one right now is just going to result in a continuation that feels half-baked or rushed. They spend a lot more work on each episode, and you and others are no more satisfied than you are now. Why do all that when they can just leave a hook for later?

If you feel that the writers are incapable of writing a satisfying conclusion, then maybe the show shouldn’t exist?

I'm willing to bet a hefty sum that some of these threads get picked up in Season 2, some in other media (multiverse movies/games/shows etc), and some even further down the line.

We might see nods to them in Loki 2, No Way Home, all kinds of other places.

Expecting Season 1 of the idea lab to tie up every major dangling thread in a neat bow isn't just unrealistic, it's wasteful.

Why the need for strawmen?

Nobody is saying it needs to tie up every major thread in a neat bow.

I am saying that the show lacks a traditional story structure which makes it feel incomplete and that maybe going to hour long episodes or season long arcs would make for a more satisfying experience.

What If comics were only thirty pages long, you managed to tell complete stories in a single issue. Its a shame the show can’t figure out how to do the same.

[Draconi Redfir]

the stores Are complete though. We saw Killmonger's rise to power. We saw the search for the zombie cure, we saw the primary avengers killed by Hank.

Everything that comes after those, zombie thanos, shuri and Pepper, Marvel and Captain America, those are DIFFERENT stories. Those are the end-credit scenes you see in every marvel movie. We might never see those stories for ourselves, but that's okay!

Where's your complaining for the ending of Dr. Strange? "Too many Sorcerers!" We haven't seen THAT pay off yet. is Dr. Strange an incomplete story? No. It's a complete story that just has a hook at the end. That hook can go it's entire lifetime without being used, and that's okay! Sometimes Hooks don't need to be used, sometimes they're good as just tails we can play with in our imagination. Whether or not you choose to do so is up to you.

[Psyren]

I am saying that the show lacks a traditional story structure which makes it feel incomplete and that maybe going to hour long episodes or season long arcs would make for a more satisfying experience.

I wouldn't care if they did this but I'm quite happy with what we have now. I still strongly suspect however that if you got your wish (either of them) the quality of the episodes would suffer. Certainly moreso than if the writers had time to breathe between setting up a brand new world state and more thoroughly exploring it.

[Palanan]

New episode. Thoroughly, utterly ridiculous.

Spoiler: Who's Worthy?

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I’m not sure how Party Thor is worthy enough to lift Mjolnir, but straight-up hero Carol Danvers somehow isn’t?

I spent much of the episode waiting for her to grab the hammer out of his pathetic hands and spank him with it. But alas, no.

Spoiler: Cameo

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I enjoyed the addition of the Sakaar party music midway through, since it fits perfectly. My favorite item from the Ragnarok soundtrack.

But even that couldn't compensate for the excessive silliness throughout.

Spoiler: Completion

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Also, on the topic of incomplete vs. complete stories: this was a complete story with a hook at the end, rather than an interesting story cut off midway through.

But who is the figure with the infinity stones at the end? Is that Ultron, or a celestial, or someone we don’t know?

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: Episode 7

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DANG that was a fun one! What the heck has Odin been feeding Loki to stunt his growth his whole life!? Dude should be HUGE!

If anything gets picked up for a future episode, that ending with ultron-vision i think would be it. the sudden portal they enter through screams "Interdimensional travel" to me. And the fact that the Watcher wasn't expecting it? Hmmm....

Spoiler: Who's Worthy?

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I’m not sure how Party Thor is worthy enough to lift Mjolnir, but straight-up hero Carol Danvers somehow isn’t?

I spent much of the episode waiting for her to grab the hammer out of his pathetic hands and spank him with it. But alas, no.

Spoiler

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Honestly i was kind of expecting the same. I might be remembering wrong, but wasn't the "only the worthy" blessing thing only given to the hammer because of some action of Loki? Goading Thor to attack the ice giants or something? would have thought this particular hammer wouldn't have had it. To be fair it is made from a dying star or something isn't it? maybe it's just really heavy, and Marvel was more held down by the action of being pinned down then the unmovable aspect of it? Who knows?

Spoiler

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But who is the figure with the infinity stones at the end? Is that Ultron, or a celestial, or someone we don’t know?

Spoiler

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Looks like Vision in a Comic-book-accurate "Ultron" ironman suit. So Vision inside of an ironman suit that looks like comic-book Ultron.

Given Vision himself was supposed to be a body for ultron though, I'd suspect it's more like

Ultron, inside of Vision, inside of an iron-man suit, that looks like Ultron.

if it IS an Ultron from an alternate reality like i suspect though, wouldn't the infinity stones not work? I thought the stones only ever worked in their own universe. Suppose the time heist in endgame swiftly proved that wrong to be fair.

[Dragonus45]

I'm willing to bet a hefty sum that some of these threads get picked up in Season 2, some in other media (multiverse movies/games/shows etc), and some even further down the line.

We might see nods to them in Loki 2, No Way Home, all kinds of other places.

Expecting Season 1 of the idea lab to tie up every major dangling thread in a neat bow isn't just unrealistic, it's wasteful.

Most of these go way beyond just having loose ends, they are literally incomplete. A What If that at least tells a complete story is not to much to ask and a failure to do that is a serious problem.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler

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if it IS an Ultron from an alternate reality like i suspect though, wouldn't the infinity stones not work? I thought the stones only ever worked in their own universe. Suppose the time heist in endgame swiftly proved that wrong to be fair.

Spoiler

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IIRC isn’t that a comics thing and not confirmed for the MCU? We know they don’t work in the TVA but it’s outside of time and the multiverse or whatever, which is not necessarily the same thing.

[Draconi Redfir]

Most of these go way beyond just having loose ends, they are literally incomplete. A What If that at least tells a complete story is not to much to ask and a failure to do that is a serious problem.

Episode 1 tells the story of how peggy carter becomes a super soldier and what she does with it. story complete.

Episode 2 tells the story of Black Starlord being fameous in space and re-uniting with his family. story complete.

Episode 3 tells the story of story of a mystery of who is killing the avengers. We find out it's Hank Pym, story complete.

Episode 4 tells the story of Dr. Strange trying to **** with time and killing the universe. Story complete.

Episode 5 tells the story of a rag-tag group of survivors searching for a cure to the zombie plague. they find it. story complete.

Episode 6 tells the story of Black Panther but with more robots. Killmonger has the power of Wakanda on his side, story complete.

Episode 7

Spoiler: Redacted for spoilers

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tells the story of Thor being a party animal and having a huge party on earth. It goes overboard and his mother gets involved. story complete.

they are all complete stories. what you're getting upset about is the equivalent of the end-credits scene in the films. Again, where is your frustration over "Too many sorcerers"?

[Dragonus45]

Episode 1 tells the story of how peggy carter becomes a super soldier and what she does with it. story complete.

Totally lacking in a setup for its story but it has a definitive ending at the least.

Episode 2 tells the story of Black Starlord being fameous in space and re-uniting with his family. story complete.

Barely but yes.

Episode 3 tells the story of story of a mystery of who is killing the avengers. We find out it's Hank Pym, story complete.

Not even close.

Episode 4 tells the story of Dr. Strange trying to **** with time and killing the universe. Story complete.

Yea this was the good one.

Episode 5 tells the story of a rag-tag group of survivors searching for a cure to the zombie plague. they find it. story complete.

Wrong.

Episode 6 tells the story of Black Panther but with more robots. Killmonger has the power of Wakanda on his side, story complete.

Wrong.

Episode 7

Spoiler: Redacted for spoilers

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tells the story of Thor being a party animal and having a huge party on earth. It goes overboard and his mother gets involved. story complete.

Haven't seen it yet but I'm just going to assume it lacks a story structure till then.

Episode
they are all complete stories. what you're getting upset about is the equivalent of the end-credits scene in the films. Again, where is your frustration over "Too many sorcerers"?

My frustration is about the ideas being half baked and half told. We all knew What If was going to be something of a marketing exercise to workshop alternate universe ideas for the MCU but I expected the episodes on average to be more then teaser trailers.

[Precure]

Spoiler

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* So, Thor growing without his brother Loki is...basically the same Thor? Honestly I see no difference, other than the beard.
* There is many "comedy movie" elements in this one including references to "hangover," teen house parties, Darcy's actress is in her "2 broke girls" persona, etc. Even the "universe is doomed ending" is comedic by how random it is.
* My biggest complaint is how Shield and Captain Marvel escalated the situation by attacking him instead of using the diplomacy with Thor.

4 > 3 > 5 > 7 > 6 > 2 > 1

About the loose ends, despite of how many of them ends like this, only one I truly see incomplete is the Killmonger one. Others I can forgive as imaginary sequel hooks. For example, Loki's invasion was not the main point of episode 3, it was a murder mystery story and get the job done, episode 5 was a zombie survival story and get the job done, episode 7 was a teen comedy and get the job done, etc. Episode 6 is basically Richard III but without the ending.

[Draconi Redfir]

Not even close.

So the story WASN'T about finding out who was killing all the Avengers? it WASN'T a mystery that the characters had to solve? Hank pym WASN'T the one who was behind all of it? and he WASN'T taken down by Loki at the end and brought to justice?

I must have hallucinated the whole thing!

Wrong.

so they DON'T follow a signal that claims to have a cure? they DON'T arrive there after serval trials and tribulations, and find said cure? they DON'T meet up with a cured Scott Lang and a vision explicitly telling them "hey i found a cure"?

What episode was i watching then?

Wrong.

So we DON'T follow the story of Killmonger rescuing Tony Stark? they DON'T build an army of robots together? they DON'T fight eachother? Killmonger DOESN'T lead this army to Wakanda, only to turn against them and fight on Wakanda's side to gain their loyalty and resources in his dream of causing a race war?

Again, wow. i must be watching a COMPLETELY different series!

My frustration is about the ideas being half baked and half told. We all knew What If was going to be something of a marketing exercise to workshop alternate universe ideas for the MCU but I expected the episodes on average to be more then teaser trailers.

but again, they're not half told! we're being told the entire story! you're just winging about the stuff that's not part of the story we're being told Episode 6's story isn't ABOUT Pepper and Shuri! it's about Killmonger making an army of robots! which he does! Episode 6 isn't about Zombie thanos! it's about Brunce, Peter, and co looking for a way to cure the Zombie virus, which they do! Episode 3 isn't about Captain Marvel and Steve Rogers fighting off Loki's army, it's about figuring out who killed the Avengers! Surprise surprise! they figure that out!

You're getting hung up on stingers and teasers for stuff that isn't part of the story being told! They're supposed to give us a feeling of "oh no!" or "oh good!" and nothing more! it's supposed to be something to let your imagination go wild so you're not just thinking the universe comes to an end after that point. it's intended to show you "this universe is still going forwards, but now things are different and here's how they are different, there are other stories to be told in this universe, but they are not the stories we're telling you now."


The Story is finding out who the murderer is, what the cure is, how Killmonger starts his race war. The Teaser trailer is overlord loki, zombie thanos, and shuri and pepper. Those are not part of the story being told, those are setups for another story that we might not get to see! and that's fine! we can't be expected to be told every story in every universe ever! sometimes you need to use your imagination!

[Eldan]

Well, that was pretty good.

[Ramza00]

I think this episode is the weakest concerning the art style. You needed different faces more stylized and less uncanny valley if we are doing a road trip.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00
I think this episode is the weakest concerning the art style. You needed different faces more stylized and less uncanny valley if we are doing a road trip.

Spoiler: Art

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I’ve been extremely unimpressed with the art from the beginning, and agree that this episode is the worst so far.

I was having trouble telling Jane from Darcy until they spoke, and those two characters should read as completely different. Jane had that same oddly solid facial look that Pepper shared with Captain Carter, and for someone as petite as Jane Foster it just doesn’t work.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Art

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I’ve been extremely unimpressed with the art from the beginning, and agree that this episode is the worst so far.

I was having trouble telling Jane from Darcy until they spoke, and those two characters should read as completely different. Jane had that same oddly solid facial look that Pepper shared with Captain Carter, and for someone as petite as Jane Foster it just doesn’t work.

Spoiler: Art, Agreed

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I had problems with the art since the beginning, but I was trying to withhold judgement and thus have ephemeral vibes in the moments, even if lots of those vibes were annoyed.

But I was more than annoyed in this episode 😑, it was hurting my enjoyment of this episode, an episode I should have enjoyed more but the art was “killing me”, distracting me from the story, the dialogue, and most importantly the “fun.”

*sigh*

[Eldan]

They are pretty good at animating movement and effects, I thought. The combats are pretty good looking. But they have major sameface.

[Dragonus45]

So the story WASN'T about finding out who was killing all the Avengers? it WASN'T a mystery that the characters had to solve? Hank pym WASN'T the one who was behind all of it? and he WASN'T taken down by Loki at the end and brought to justice?

I must have hallucinated the whole thing!

It pretended to be about that but then rushed past most of it to be about Loki taking over the world as a teaser for the better plot they will do if it sold well enough.

so they DON'T follow a signal that claims to have a cure? they DON'T arrive there after serval trials and tribulations, and find said cure? they DON'T meet up with a cured Scott Lang and a vision explicitly telling them "hey i found a cure"?

It had a beginning and middle, then just stops and shows a picture of Zombie Thanos.

So we DON'T follow the story of Killmonger rescuing Tony Stark? they DON'T build an army of robots together? they DON'T fight eachother? Killmonger DOESN'T lead this army to Wakanda, only to turn against them and fight on Wakanda's side to gain their loyalty and resources in his dream of causing a race war?

You seem to be confusing characters taking actions with a plot having a structure. Yes characters talk and do things, but the actual plot structure is garbage.

[Ramza00]

They are pretty good at animating movement and effects, I thought. The combats are pretty good looking. But they have major sameface.

I am wondering with a different show if it would be easier to just hand draw the faces even if most of the animation is CG.

[Psyren]

"Captain Marvel vs. Thor" and "What if Loki was raised as a Frost Giant" were definitely questions I wanted answered, so yay!

But that last shot:

Spoiler: Dark Twist

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We knew one was coming, but I thought for sure it would be Galactus getting attracted to all the raucous partying and alien density.

Instead we got UltraVision, which... why would Tony have made Ultron with no Loki and therefore no Battle of NY? And how did that Ultron get the stones? Cool visual but I feel they could have had a more relevant villain there for the final shot.

[Draconi Redfir]

why would Tony have made Ultron with no Loki and therefore no Battle of NY? And how did that Ultron get the stones? Cool visual but I feel they could have had a more relevant villain there for the final shot.[/spoiler]

Spoiler: Theory

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Considering UltraVision walked in through a portal, and the Watcher didn't seem aware that this would happen, I'm suspecting this character just traveled from another reality. possibly some small level of time travel to go to a time before he was built. This might be the thing that causes the possible crossover situation with heroes we've seen over the past few episodes? or sets up such a crossover in the future.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Theory

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Considering UltraVision walked in through a portal, and the Watcher didn't seem aware that this would happen, I'm suspecting this character just traveled from another reality. possibly some small level of time travel to go to a time before he was built. This might be the thing that causes the possible crossover situation with heroes we've seen over the past few episodes? or sets up such a crossover in the future.

IIRC the Infinity Stones only work in their home reality, so he would have had to be part of this one. And he has the Space Stone, which you can use to make portals.

[Draconi Redfir]

IIRC the Infinity Stones only work in their home reality, so he would have had to be part of this one. And he has the Space Stone, which you can use to make portals.

this was already sort of covered earlier on. The Time Heist in Endgame involved taking infinity stones from different moments on the timeline / alternate realities. and they seemed to work just fine in the end. I agree the whole "Don't work in different realities" thing is a a possible thing, but it hasn't been introduced in the MCU yet, so it might not exist for them?

[ecarden]

Spoiler: On the Hammer

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My assumption was that there were two different enchantments at play. One which prevented other people from using an incredibly powerful weapon of Asgard, or even moving it. And the second, placed when Thor was exiled, which would allow a sufficiently 'worthy' person to claim the hammer and the removed power of Thor. Without that exile, there's no escape clause to allow Marvel to use the hammer.

Spoiler: On the Episode

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Okay, that was fun. Super crazy, but fun. And the ridiculous tone meant that all the out-of-character bits didn't really stand out

[DigoDragon]

Spoiler: Who's Worthy?

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I’m not sure how Party Thor is worthy enough to lift Mjolnir, but straight-up hero Carol Danvers somehow isn’t?

I spent much of the episode waiting for her to grab the hammer out of his pathetic hands and spank him with it. But alas, no.

Spoiler: None are worthy?

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I agree that Thor's worthiness is in question after all the stunts he's pulling on Earth. However, I don't think Captain Marvel is worthy herself. I think she's too hot-headed and quick to get into fights to be able to wield the hammer.

In any case, I think having an utterly bonkers episode was good break from the more gloomy serious ones. I got a good laugh out of many scenes here.

Spoiler

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* My biggest complaint is how Shield and Captain Marvel escalated the situation by attacking him instead of using the diplomacy with Thor.

Spoiler: That escalated quickly.

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I think that's because Fury was out of commission. I bet if he weren't nursing a concussion in the hospital, it wouldn't have gone to arming the nukes.

this was already sort of covered earlier on. The Time Heist in Endgame involved taking infinity stones from different moments on the timeline / alternate realities. and they seemed to work just fine in the end. I agree the whole "Don't work in different realities" thing is a a possible thing, but it hasn't been introduced in the MCU yet, so it might not exist for them?

Spoiler

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I was thinking that maybe this UltaVision is from the near future. The stones would work in that case. Give it a bit of a Terminator treatment too.

[GloatingSwine]

"Captain Marvel vs. Thor" and "What if Loki was raised as a Frost Giant" were definitely questions I wanted answered, so yay!

But that last shot:

Spoiler: Dark Twist

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We knew one was coming, but I thought for sure it would be Galactus getting attracted to all the raucous partying and alien density.

Instead we got UltraVision, which... why would Tony have made Ultron with no Loki and therefore no Battle of NY? And how did that Ultron get the stones? Cool visual but I feel they could have had a more relevant villain there for the final shot.

Spoiler

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One must simply follow the logic of What If?... so far. Tony didn't make this version of Ultron/Vision. Hank Pym did.

[Clertar]

IIRC the Infinity Stones only work in their home reality, so he would have had to be part of this one. And he has the Space Stone, which you can use to make portals.

This has been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I have no idea what the source for it is. Any idea?

[GloatingSwine]

This has been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I have no idea what the source for it is. Any idea?

I think it's possibly because they didn't work in the TVA, but it's not well established whether that's a specific nature of the TVA, it suppresses "magic" but the stones weren't magic, they were artifacts of the creation of the cosmos (like the Winslow).

On the other hand I think it's rather better to only treat information presented by the MCU regarding timelines and alternate realities as only true for the scene it is given in, since Endgame already managed to establish that a timeline with one stone removed would be inevitably doomed by cosmic forces but also the reason they wanted to borrow some from the past was because they had been blown up so by the end of the movie they don't have any of them them and so should be turbo-doomed.

[Majin]

On the other hand I think it's rather better to only treat information presented by the MCU regarding timelines and alternate realities as only true for the scene it is given in, since Endgame already managed to establish that a timeline with one stone removed would be inevitably doomed by cosmic forces but also the reason they wanted to borrow some from the past was because they had been blown up so by the end of the movie they don't have any of them them and so should be turbo-doomed.

Thanos says the stones were "reduced to atoms". So their essence or power or whatever might still exist, but in a form where nobody can use them. But taking a stone from the timeline removes it completely, so you could say the logic still holds up.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
...Endgame already managed to establish that a timeline with one stone removed would be inevitably doomed by cosmic forces but also the reason they wanted to borrow some from the past was because they had been blown up so by the end of the movie they don't have any of them them and so should be turbo-doomed.

For me this is the single biggest plot hole in the MCU, and one of several major reasons why I dislike Endgame so much.

There's always a hefty dose of ridiculous in comic-book movies, but at the very least it should be internally consistent.