Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[GloatingSwine]

This is one of those places where I think Hollywood needs the Ashtray Room.

The Ashtray Room is a special place where a special man sits. He does nothing. He just smokes all day and puts out his cigarettes in one of those old fashioned really heavy glass ashtrays. When someone else enters the room he throws the ashtray at their face as hard as he can. That's his job.

If anyone in Hollywood wants to make a movie where the words "time travel" or "prequel" appear anywhere in the pitch or script they must visit the Ashtray Room for permission.

They need to be so invested in this idea that they are willing to take an ashtray to the face for it.

[Dragonus45]

But there is no plot hole, the things the stones were needed for, like stopping Dormammu, are done by the time Thanos uses them for the snap and then destroys them. Thus no doom and no plot hole.

[GloatingSwine]

But there is no plot hole, the things the stones were needed for, like stopping Dormammu, are done by the time Thanos uses them for the snap and then destroys them. Thus no doom and no plot hole.

I mean that rather assumes that 100% of cosmic threats which the infinity stones will be required for will be fully exhausted within five years of the Battle of New York, and that was rather not the implication the Ancient One gave.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
I mean that rather assumes that 100% of cosmic threats which the infinity stones will be required for will be fully exhausted within five years of the Battle of New York, and that was rather not the implication the Ancient One gave.

Indeed. And the stones aren’t just sitting around in case of some threat; both Wong and the Ancient One made it clear that the existence of the stones was necessary for the continued survival of the universe itself:

Wong: “These infinity stones each control an essential aspect of existence.”

Ancient One: “If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality I’m dooming my own….The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time…Without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun.”

There’s no reason to believe Dormammu is the only one of those “forces of darkness,” so without the Time Stone more forces of darkness should be coming—and if Wong is correct, and each stone controls an aspect of existence, then without them existence itself should crumble.

Note there is no fine print about “reduced to atoms but still works okay”—Thanos himself says the stones are destroyed, and if they still functioned in reduced-to-atoms form, there would have been no point to destroying them in the first place. He destroyed them to keep them out of everyone’s hands, principally his own, so the stones when shredded to atoms by definition don’t function.

[Dragonus45]

I mean that rather assumes that 100% of cosmic threats which the infinity stones will be required for will be fully exhausted within five years of the Battle of New York, and that was rather not the implication the Ancient One gave.

The Ancient one was having that conversation pre Dormammu fight and that was the last time we see a stone used for anything useful. For all we know they had done their job by then, and if they haven't then the knowledge that now the Avengers would need to find ways to deal with these cosmic level threats without the power of the stones is more a future plot point then a plot hole.

[Psyren]

For me this is the single biggest plot hole in the MCU, and one of several major reasons why I dislike Endgame so much.

There's always a hefty dose of ridiculous in comic-book movies, but at the very least it should be internally consistent.

I'd counter that by saying a big point of the Infinity Saga was to make the setting stand on its own two feet without needing the stones. We have generational heroes instead.

Like the Sorcerer Supreme may no longer have the Time Stone to stop a dimensional interloper like Dormammu. But instead he has numerous allies, including heavy hitters like Captain Marvel and possibly the Scarlet Witch, that can presumably stop him instead. Thus the Ancient One's statement was true at the time she made it, but she can't see past her own death to determine that a time will come when the stones are no longer needed.

Spoiler: On the Hammer

Show

My assumption was that there were two different enchantments at play. One which prevented other people from using an incredibly powerful weapon of Asgard, or even moving it. And the second, placed when Thor was exiled, which would allow a sufficiently 'worthy' person to claim the hammer and the removed power of Thor. Without that exile, there's no escape clause to allow Marvel to use the hammer.

I like this explanation. You need to use the Power of Thor to move the Hammer, and without Loki around, Odin never put the escape clause on the Hammer that lets other people gain PowerOfThor.sql .

this was already sort of covered earlier on. The Time Heist in Endgame involved taking infinity stones from different moments on the timeline / alternate realities. and they seemed to work just fine in the end. I agree the whole "Don't work in different realities" thing is a a possible thing, but it hasn't been introduced in the MCU yet, so it might not exist for them?

Those weren't alternate realities though, because (a) all the others were still being pruned back then, and (b) the stones were returned to the exact place and time they were taken, thus preventing any alternate from arising.

[Ramza00]

This is one of those places where I think Hollywood needs the Ashtray Room.

The Ashtray Room is a special place where a special man sits. He does nothing. He just smokes all day and puts out his cigarettes in one of those old fashioned really heavy glass ashtrays. When someone else enters the room he throws the ashtray at their face as hard as he can. That's his job.

If anyone in Hollywood wants to make a movie where the words "time travel" or "prequel" appear anywhere in the pitch or script they must visit the Ashtray Room for permission.

They need to be so invested in this idea that they are willing to take an ashtray to the face for it.

Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.

Benjamin: Yes, sir.

Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?

Benjamin: Yes, I am.

Mr. McGuire: CRUELLA!

————

^{*Dodges the ashtray with a total defense action.*}

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
…and that was the last time we see a stone used for anything useful. For all we know they had done their job by then….

We have no reason to believe this, and direct statements to the contrary from Wong and the Ancient One.

[Talakeal]

Again, I really like What If?

But the fact that so many people have the some complaint about it should indicate that there is something behind it. Not necessarily that it is a valid complaint, but at least there is something behind it. For example, complaints about Rey or Carol being Mary Sues are, imo, not valid complaints, but the gender bias behind the complaints is certainly very real.

Personally, I think the incomplete story is only really bad in episodes 5 and 6, although 3 also feels like it is setting up a more interesting story than it just told.


I found the latest episode absolutely great fun from start to finish. Definitely a contender for the best episode, beating out 2 for human and fan service, although 4 might be better due to the pathos and 1 had an awesome protagonist.


I wouldn't say Carol is worthy to lift the hammer. I get the feeling from her that she is more motivated by her own discipline and ego than by true compassion and kindness. Not that I don't like her character mind you, I just don't think she is the same level of moral paragon as Steve Rogers, Wonder Woman, or Miguel O'hara.

Spoiler: Spoilers about the episode 7 stinger

Show

I have known that the season 1 finale was going to be called "What if Vision became Ultron" and would involve a multiversal avengers team up since before the show premiered. I didn't even think it was a leak, I though Disney actually made a press release about it to hype the show.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't say Carol is worthy to lift the hammer. I get the feeling from her that she is more motivated by her own discipline and ego than by true compassion and kindness. Not that I don't like her character mind you, I just don't think she is the same level of moral paragon as Steve Rogers, Wonder Woman, or Miguel O'hara.

Her worth is actually irrelevant/impossible to determine - in this reality, Thor was never cast out, therefore Odin never put the "worth-o-meter spell" on the hammer in the first place, therefore only Thor has or ever will have the power of Thor. In this reality, even Steve Rogers, Vision, or Jane Foster would be completely unable to lift it.

[Dragonus45]

We have no reason to believe this, and direct statements to the contrary from Wong and the Ancient One.

We have no reason not to believe it and neither of them are omniscient narrators. If what Thanos did to the stones even qualified as stopping them from whatever nebulous purpose they served just by existing.

[DigoDragon]

Those weren't alternate realities though, because (a) all the others were still being pruned back then, and (b) the stones were returned to the exact place and time they were taken, thus preventing any alternate from arising.

Though there's the minor issue of having two Thanos' in the timeline, one that Tony snap'd and the one beheaded by Thor. I guess... now that we know the TVA is a thing, they would prune the timeline that lost their Thanos and let this one stay with the two?

[Talakeal]

Her worth is actually irrelevant/impossible to determine - in this reality, Thor was never cast out, therefore Odin never put the "worth-o-meter spell" on the hammer in the first place, therefore only Thor has or ever will have the power of Thor. In this reality, even Steve Rogers, Vision, or Jane Foster would be completely unable to lift it.

Perhaps. We don't know (and I don't think the writers put that much thought into it).

I am just discussing the concept of whether MCU Carol Danvers would be worthy.

[Psyren]

Perhaps. We don't know (and I don't think the writers put that much thought into it).

I am just discussing the concept of whether MCU Carol Danvers would be worthy.

I personally think she can be, but this What If does not answer that question one way or another.

[Dragonus45]

Perhaps. We don't know (and I don't think the writers put that much thought into it).

I am just discussing the concept of whether MCU Carol Danvers would be worthy.

She potentially could be but as she was at the end of her movie I think she has some work on herself to do.

[Draconi Redfir]

This has been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I have no idea what the source for it is. Any idea?

it's a comic thing iirc. i first heard it in the "DEATH BATTLE" episode of Thanos Vs Darkseid. Apparently every alternate universe has their own stones, which can even be different colours. explaining why say the time stone is green in the mcu, but could be yellow in a comic.

Suppose it largely depends on one simple thing. is a branching timeline different from an alternate universe? Is a reality where Peggy Carter became Captain Carter somehow different then the reality where everything is the same but everyone is the opposite sex?

[Dragonus45]

it's a comic thing iirc. i first heard it in the "DEATH BATTLE" episode of Thanos Vs Darkseid. Apparently every alternate universe has their own stones, which can even be different colours. explaining why say the time stone is green in the mcu, but could be yellow in a comic.

Some of them even have different numbers of gems, the Ultimate universe had 8. Something to do with dimensions that didn't entirely properly expand during the big bang or something like that, it's been ages.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
We have no reason not to believe it….

What specific, canon reason is there not to accept what Wong tells us?

Whether or not he is “omniscient” is irrelevant, since that’s not an expectation for any character. But he is the one who introduces the Infinity Stones to the audience at the beginning of Infinity War, and he’s the one providing the information the audience needs to understand the importance of the stones.

There is zero reason to imagine he is incorrect in what he says.

[Dragonus45]

What specific, canon reason is there not to accept what Wong tells us?

Whether or not he is “omniscient” is irrelevant, since that’s not an expectation for any character. But he is the one who introduces the Infinity Stones to the audience at the beginning of Infinity War, and he’s the one providing the information the audience needs to understand the importance of the stones.

There is zero reason to imagine he is incorrect in what he says.

Considering the universe still exists after Thanos "destroyed" the gems what reason do we have to accept what Wong tells us?

[Ramza00]

Metaphysics are mental constructs of humans minds (also aliens)

The reality of the MCU is simply is, and it will remain what it is even while it changes.

[Talakeal]

This has been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I have no idea what the source for it is. Any idea?

IIRC it comes from the "Justice League vs. Avengers" crossover where it is stated it won't work in the DC universe.

[Psyren]

Guys - everything Wong and the Ancient One said could be 100% correct and still fit with the universe continuing after the stones were destroyed.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
Considering the universe still exists after Thanos "destroyed" the gems what reason do we have to accept what Wong tells us?

This being the plot hole created by a major inconsistency. One movie tells us that something is bedrock-important, the next movie ignores it completely. That’s not Wong’s fault, that’s the MCU not being consistent.

[Dragonus45]

This being the plot hole created by a major inconsistency. One movie tells us that something is bedrock-important, the next movie ignores it completely. That’s not Wong’s fault, that’s the MCU not being consistent.

Not every personally nitpick you have is a plot hole.

[Talakeal]

I am sure we could no prize it, but imo the Ancient One's dialogue in End Game was written before they had nailed down exactly how time travel / the multiverse was going to work in the MCU and is not consistent with what we are later shown.

[Ramza00]

I am sure we could no prize it, but imo the Ancient One's dialogue in End Game was written before they had nailed down exactly how time travel / the multiverse was going to work in the MCU and is not consistent with what we are later shown.

Yep per interviews the Loki writers were given the freedom to do whatever mechanics they wanted to do, even if it contradicts Endgame and other movies.

[Psyren]

I don't even see an inconsistency or contradiction.

"Without the infinity stones, we can't defend this reality" - well, the infinity stones are directly responsible for the creation of multiple defenders of this reality, so they fulfilled that purpose. But at the time of the Battle of NY, we didn't have our full complement of defenders yet.

"The infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time" - The thing about a flow is, it continues until acted on by an outside force. The stones being gone now doesn't mean the flow stops.

[Precure]

This has been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I have no idea what the source for it is. Any idea?

Justice League vs Avengers comic book series. Darkseid tried to use them to find Anti Life Equation, but they didn't work for him. Explanation was that they didn't work because they're not from the DC universe.

[Dragonus45]

Justice League vs Avengers comic book series. Darkseid tried to use them to find Anti Life Equation, but they didn't work for him. Explanation was that they didn't work because they're not from the DC universe.

It also came up during the Secret Wars stuff that rebooted the whole setting when various dimensions of the multiverse all had to fight each other.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't even see an inconsistency or contradiction.

"Without the infinity stones, we can't defend this reality" - well, the infinity stones are directly responsible for the creation of multiple defenders of this reality, so they fulfilled that purpose. But at the time of the Battle of NY, we didn't have our full complement of defenders yet.

And they're all immortal and can each use 100% of the full capabilities of whatever stone they were empowered by, even when they still required having it to actively use?

Oh wait, no...

There's no papering over the cracks of this one, you just have to follow the maxim above that all cosmic information is only true for the scene it is presented in and is false at all other times.