Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[Draconi Redfir]

the timeline isn't doomed because the stones were supposed to be destroyed at that time. if they were destroyed sooner or later, then things would be screwed.


there, easy fix.

[GloatingSwine]

the timeline isn't doomed because the stones were supposed to be destroyed at that time. if they were destroyed sooner or later, then things would be screwed.


there, easy fix.

That's not a logical progression from anything The Ancient One says. The Ancient One's dialogue suggests that the stones themselves are required permanently.

Which, y'know, Dormammu only agreed to go away because the time stone could be used to trap him in a loop. It's gone now. Do you think anyone or anything in the MCU could stop him if he tries to absorb reality into the Dark Dimension again?

[DigoDragon]

Which, y'know, Dormammu only agreed to go away because the time stone could be used to trap him in a loop. It's gone now. Do you think anyone or anything in the MCU could stop him if he tries to absorb reality into the Dark Dimension again?

With infinite realities out there, why bother coming back to this one? And would Dormammu know that the time stone was destroyed? I don't disagree that if the big D came back, we'd be screwed, but it depends on whether Dormammu wants to come back or not.

[ecarden]

More generally, I thought there were two sets of issues with the infinity stones:

1) The people who have them, generally need them for something and we generally want them to accomplish that something. Whether it's defeating Dormammu, or uniting the Guardians, or whatever...
2) The universe itself needs the forces which the stones contain. If you remove the timestone from a universe altogether for too long, things get messes up.

Thanos destroying the stones doesn't cause problem number (2) because the energy they contain is just distributed across the universe and will recoalesce. So you haven't destroyed the force, just dispersed it.

[GloatingSwine]

With infinite realities out there, why bother coming back to this one? And would Dormammu know that the time stone was destroyed? I don't disagree that if the big D came back, we'd be screwed, but it depends on whether Dormammu wants to come back or not.

Infinite realities mean infinite Dormammus as well, of course...

But the general concept remains, this argument is that the Infinity Stones, everlasting relics of the cosmic creation, present from the dawn of the universe and essential to it, just happen to stop being important right after the last time we saw one being used and through all of time nobody will ever need one again for anything.

[Thrudd]

Infinite realities mean infinite Dormammus as well, of course...

But the general concept remains, this argument is that the Infinity Stones, everlasting relics of the cosmic creation, present from the dawn of the universe and essential to it, just happen to stop being important right after the last time we saw one being used and through all of time nobody will ever need one again for anything.

My guess is they will be missed, and somebody will probably have a line of dialogue in some movie acknowledging the problems potentially caused by their absence. Like when something like Galactus shows up, or an annihilation wave from the negative zone.
People are going to need to find other, even more powerful forces. The Ultimate Nullifier. Cosmic abstract deities will need to get involved, etc.

[Dragonus45]

Here's a thought. The reason why the stones had to exist before Infinity War and their loss would doom the world is because the TVA would nuke those timelines because they weren't on the sacred timeline any more.

[M1982]

Do you think anyone or anything in the MCU could stop him if he tries to absorb reality into the Dark Dimension again?

Well, first of all Dormammu has to find annother way to come into reality once again. The last attempt took him long enough.

Secondly, if there's no other hero to stop him, he'd probably be stopped by one of the other big bads out there. There's so many universe threatining entities at large, even if one wins hin her corner of the universe and starts spreading outward from there, she's bound to run into the next one eventually.

[M1982]

This being the plot hole created by a major inconsistency. One movie tells us that something is bedrock-important, the next movie ignores it completely. That’s not Wong’s fault, that’s the MCU not being consistent.

Actually that's not really a plot hole. The destroyed stones are still within this reality. Just as dust or dispersed energy or whatever from they took after the destruction of their condensed stone form. Their reality has not lost them. But the time stone taken out of his native reality is truly lost to this reality until it's returned

[GloatingSwine]

Actually that's not really a plot hole. The destroyed stones are still within this reality. Just as dust or dispersed energy or whatever from they took after the destruction of their condensed stone form. Their reality has not lost them. But the time stone taken out of his native reality is truly lost to this reality until it's returned

When the Ancient One talked about removing the stones it was clearly in the context of their active use as a defense mechanism (because that's how we know the time stone is going to be used), that their presence is required to be permanent and continuous, and that without them destruction of the universe was inevitable.

They were destroyed so they couldn't be used to undo what Thanos did.

Even within the same movie, the two concepts cannot be reconciled.

The only path to sanity is to treat the Avengers movies as big dumb fanservice and watch the solo movies for actual stories.


(Plus, of course, Endgame ends with Thanos from 5 years ago having been defeated before he could do the snap in the first place or seemingly even plan to do so, creating a grandfather paradox which should cause everything from slightly before Guardians of the Galaxy onwards to never have happened, Sacred Timeline my pasty white arse...)

[Talakeal]

When the Ancient One talked about removing the stones it was clearly in the context of their active use as a defense mechanism (because that's how we know the time stone is going to be used), that their presence is required to be permanent and continuous, and that without them destruction of the universe was inevitable.

They were destroyed so they couldn't be used to undo what Thanos did.

Even within the same movie, the two concepts cannot be reconciled.

The only path to sanity is to treat the Avengers movies as big dumb fanservice and watch the solo movies for actual stories.


(Plus, of course, Endgame ends with Thanos from 5 years ago having been defeated before he could do the snap in the first place or seemingly even plan to do so, creating a grandfather paradox which should cause everything from slightly before Guardians of the Galaxy onwards to never have happened, Sacred Timeline my pasty white arse...)

To be fair, the timeline past Thanos came from is the one that is screwed, not the main timeline which he ended up in.

Because time travel in these movies doesn't change the past, it involves splitting off alternate timelines.

[Androgeus]

The only path to sanity is to treat the Avengers movies as big dumb fanservice and watch the solo movies for actual stories.

Or ya'know the forces of Darkness that the stones were the first (but not only) line of defence against have not assailed the universe yet. Nothing in the Ancient One's explanation says the universe would be wrecked instantaneous.

Heck the stones removal might even be what allows the villain of the next "Disney wants another 2 billion dollars" movie to even do their villainy.

[Clertar]

To be fair, the timeline past Thanos came from is the one that is screwed, not the main timeline which he ended up in.

Because time travel in these movies doesn't change the past, it involves splitting off alternate timelines.

That timeline was probably just pruned by the TVA (in the pre-Sylvie way of things, that is).

[Thrudd]

Or ya'know the forces of Darkness that the stones were the first (but not only) line of defence against have not assailed the universe yet. Nothing in the Ancient One's explanation says the universe would be wrecked instantaneous.

Heck the stones removal might even be what allows the villain of the next "Disney wants another 2 billion dollars" movie to even do their villainy.

Exactly. Galactus getting real hungry all of a sudden? Celestials gone mad? Another dimension full of genocidal monsters breaking into ours? Why is this happening? You destroyed your stones, dummies. Now our only hope is to go to the boundaries of reality itself where dwell cosmic multiversal entities beyond comprehension to find a way to repair everything. Or maybe the ultimate end is every universe crashing into every other universe until nothing is left, and only the most powerful sorcery that Strange, Wanda and maybe Doom can wield will allow them to stitch together an isolated dimension made up of pieces of the multiverse they could salvage.

Also, maybe the Ancient One isn't omniscient. She's looked through time, yes, but probably not all times in all universes. Maybe she, Wong et al. don't really know all of what's possible in the multiverse or exactly what the stones were doing or how they did it. I think it might be for Dr Strange, the Eternals, Wanda, and who knows who else to unlock some secrets nobody else knows about yet.

[Psyren]

And they're all immortal and can each use 100% of the full capabilities of whatever stone they were empowered by, even when they still required having it to actively use?

Oh wait, no...

1) Why do they have to be immortal? You think this generation of cosmic heroes will be the only one? I have a lovely bridge to sell you if so.

2) You don't need "full capabilities of the stone" to protect this reality. Dormammu got stopped cold by just one use case of the Time stone, the loop power. Thanos in turn was (eventually) stopped by another one entirely, the future sight power.

There's no papering over the cracks of this one

Whatever "cracks" you're obsessing over really don't matter to the vast majority of moviegoers.

[Anteros]

When the Ancient One talked about removing the stones it was clearly in the context of their active use as a defense mechanism (because that's how we know the time stone is going to be used), that their presence is required to be permanent and continuous, and that without them destruction of the universe was inevitable.

They were destroyed so they couldn't be used to undo what Thanos did.

Even within the same movie, the two concepts cannot be reconciled.

The only path to sanity is to treat the Avengers movies as big dumb fanservice and watch the solo movies for actual stories.


(Plus, of course, Endgame ends with Thanos from 5 years ago having been defeated before he could do the snap in the first place or seemingly even plan to do so, creating a grandfather paradox which should cause everything from slightly before Guardians of the Galaxy onwards to never have happened, Sacred Timeline my pasty white arse...)

The ancient one also somehow knew about Strange being the greatest sorcerer ever despite not knowing that in her own movie and explicitly not being able to see past her own death. Like all things with the MCU, it's best to not think about it too much.

[Psyren]

It's really not hard to think of ways these statements could work. For example, the prophecy about Strange being "the best of us" doesn't have to come from the Ancient One's own life; it could be a prediction handed down from a past Sorcerer Supreme (maybe even the first one, Agamotto.) She could also simply know that the one she was meant to train in her lifetime would eventually become the greatest, without seeing past her own end.

As always, I find it infinitely more interesting to make assumptions that do fit with the text, than ones that don't (and complaining about it being wrong.)

[Rodin]

1)Whatever "cracks" you're obsessing over really don't matter to the vast majority of moviegoers.

Very much this. Plots that fail the smell test due to a single point of failure rarely bother me if what comes out the other side is an enjoyable movie. At the end of the day, the Ancient One's explanation not making sense doesn't impact my enjoyment of people in tights punching the crap out of each other.

The Infinity Stones need to be returned because [REASON]. The machines put humanity in The Matrix because [REASON]. Thanos wants to snap half the universe away because [REASON].

It doesn't matter what [REASON] is to me. It really, really doesn't. Thanos could want to snap the universe away because somebody promised him a kitten if he did. The important thing is that the rest of the plot works around that premise, and above all is fun to watch.

[DigoDragon]

Infinite realities mean infinite Dormammus as well, of course...

But the general concept remains, this argument is that the Infinity Stones, everlasting relics of the cosmic creation, present from the dawn of the universe and essential to it, just happen to stop being important right after the last time we saw one being used and through all of time nobody will ever need one again for anything.

I dunno about that first part. I understood Dormammu as a unique entity that exists outside realities and time. There's just the one.

As for the argument... our information comes from mortal, fallible people who could be wrong about the need for the stones. But they could be right, or half right. Hard to know how accurate their info is until the next series of movies come out.

[GloatingSwine]

I dunno about that first part. I understood Dormammu as a unique entity that exists outside realities and time. There's just the one.

As for the argument... our information comes from mortal, fallible people who could be wrong about the need for the stones. But they could be right, or half right. Hard to know how accurate their info is until the next series of movies come out.

Yes, that's why I say treat all information as only true for the purposes of the scene it is presented in. Because the next thing is just going to do it differently anyway.

[Ramza00]

Metaphysics conversations such as above, is one of the reasons why I feel you should not have macguffins that are the stabilizing force for your cosmic axial mundi.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually that's not really a plot hole. The destroyed stones are still within this reality. Just as dust or dispersed energy or whatever from they took after the destruction of their condensed stone form. Their reality has not lost them. But the time stone taken out of his native reality is truly lost to this reality until it's returned

Well, then all the universes from the drawer full of stones in Loki are pretty screwed indeed. And Loki did end up with one of the stones from, apparently, the prime MCU universe, so it would seem to include that one.

I dunno about that first part. I understood Dormammu as a unique entity that exists outside realities and time. There's just the one.

Well, that might be refuted by What If, if we take it as alt-world canon. Though granted, that's pretty dubious. What If comics were always non canonical, IIRC, and the very title seems to imply the same here. But if my memory is correct, the Dr Strange episode seems to assume another world that still contains the same elements and story, with the same Dormammu defeat, though it is not the point of the tale. That would seem to imply more than a singular Dormammu.

[Psyren]

Well, then all the universes from the drawer full of stones in Loki are pretty screwed indeed.

What universes? All those branches got pruned, remember?

[Draconi Redfir]

if we're going to be talking about inconsistencies, let me throw one in there that's bugged me since it came up.

Magic doesn't work in the TVA.

Infinity stones don't work in the TVA.

So why is the illusion that makes Loki look like an Asgardian still up? Shouldn't he look like an ice giant the moment he enters the TVA?

I mean I'm sure the practical reason is they didn't want to bother with all the makeup and the like, but still. I feel like the whole "Loki is an ice giant" thing was dropped and forgotten about after the first Thor movie. Best we got was a single brief glimpse of a Loki variant that actually looked like an ice giant.

[ecarden]

if So why is the illusion that makes Loki look like an Asgardian still up? Shouldn't he look like an ice giant the moment he enters the TVA?

It depends on what was actually done. My assumption is that it wasn't a simple illusion (for one thing, no one appears to be maintaining it and its never detected in the quite high magic setting of Asgard). My assumption was that, in the language of D&D, this was more transmutation than illusion. The only things which break it are direct use of ice magic on his body. So, they changed his body, but not his internal nature which still reacted to the ice magic, but simply being in an 'antimagic zone' doesn't undo it.

[Clertar]

Odin enchanted him with his universe-breaking magic. He also enchanted Mjolnir and turned Thor into a mortal, and that's a type of magic that nobody that we know of can dispel.

[Psyren]

So why is the illusion that makes Loki look like an Asgardian still up? Shouldn't he look like an ice giant the moment he enters the TVA?

The simplest answer is that it isn't an illusion. Odin (instantaneously) transmuted him as a baby. If he hadn't, Loki would be freezing humans and asgardians all over the place by touching them.

The times we've seen him appear blue since then (outside of What If, where this transmutation didn't happen) were due to coming into contact with Frost Giants or Frost Giant artifacts like the Cask. Neither of those things were in the TVA.

[Cikomyr2]

IIRC the Infinity Stones only work in their home reality, so he would have had to be part of this one. And he has the Space Stone, which you can use to make portals.

The infinity stones being able to work outside of their original timelines is the entire plot of Avengers Endgame

They don't work in the TVA, which is outside realities.

[Devonix]

The infinity stones being able to work outside of their original timelines is the entire plot of Avengers Endgame

They don't work in the TVA, which is outside realities.

Spoiler

Show

So much for the stones only working in their home universe

[Tyndmyr]

What universes? All those branches got pruned, remember?

Ah, that's fair. So, sort of screwed regardless, but in a faster way. If we take it as a true splitting into two universes, at least.

What exactly causes universes to split ends up being kind of undefined, still. The TVA doesn't seem to actually control that. There must be...uncountable universes on the "golden timeline" if we can have universes where croc-loki was acceptable until he chomped the wrong cat. The divergence points that are unacceptable to the TVA seem arbitrarily set by them to avoid the specific outcome...but it seems as if, to the universe, no cat would be more important than any other.