Marvel's 'What If...?' Trailer

[Dire_Flumph]

I get that, but why...

I give up.

I think you just have to accept that there's more than one difference despite the premise (Bruce returning to Betty and working pizza delivery for example). If there was just one change it was years earlier and already spread out.

[Psyren]

If there was just one change it was years earlier and already spread out.

Totally agreed, I was just wondering (out loud) what that might be. Usually the Watcher tells us, but this one didn't even have any closing remarks from him.

[Ramza00]

Does it matter what the triggering event was? Everything is connected

Spoiler: Time and What If

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A and A' are the same.

i) Hope was recruited into Shield
ii) Hope died.
iii) Everything else that followed since Hank Pym took that personally and did vengeance.

It does not matter if A=i or A'=i the sequence of chain of events was started and other chains of events did not stop the sequence of chains of events.

The nature of Ontology, the nature of being and existence, the nature of existence connecting to the essence of each individual choice is all connected.

Part of Hauntology^{(the H is silent in french, thus it is a pun on Ontology depending on how you proununce the vowels much like The Good Place with Eu-topia, No Place Ou-topia, or the 500 year old word U-topia)} is that the past is always with us in the present and there is no escaping the past. Thus the past haunts the present, but also the existential dread of "lost futures" that could have been. Like what would happen with World War 1 if that Archduke did not get assassinated (Franz Ferdinand Carl Ludwig Joseph Maria of Austria.)

Well here is the thing World War 1 happened due to a chain of events after the assassination so if those triggering alliances did not happen automatically and people decided to go back on their word, or an investigation for the murderer happened instead of an escilation, then no World War 1. Then again another Great War may have happened a few years later anyway.

Did Loki have to conquer Midgard to avenge his brother after they found Loki's brother keeper?

What-If is "hauntology" made Pulpy (just like the James Bond franchise, or the Jetsons.)

Of course with the first few episodes before episode 3 we are told the pattern 1 event changed, we see that 1 event, but we learn that ripples can lead to greater ripples we lose track of the stone hitting the water.

[Psyren]

The stone hitting the water is what I'm curious about. For me, seeing the ripples (or tidal waves!) that result is all the more fun when Uatu brings up the seemingly innocuous vagary of fate that got it all rolling.

I understand why they obfuscated it here since it was a mystery story, but he could have supplied some details at the very end. Hopefully this kind of obfuscation doesn't become a habit.

[Ramza00]

The stone hitting the water is what I'm curious about. For me, seeing the ripples (or tidal waves!) that result is all the more fun when Uatu brings up the seemingly innocuous vagary of fate that got it all rolling.

I understand why they obfuscated it here since it was a mystery story, but he could have supplied some details at the very end. Hopefully this kind of obfuscation doesn't become a habit.

I think it is going to be a mixture of both to keep things interesting. But that may be projection on my part, what I think makes a good series is that it surprises us and keeps things fresh. Thus randomness with tropes, mixing genres, etc.

But hey I am often wrong, and that is kind of the fun with What If?

[theNater]

Spoiler: Villain Motivation

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What exactly was the change here?

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Pretty sure it was Hank telling Hope how Janet died while Hope was still a child. So she grew up idolizing her mom, joined SHIELD in her honor, and was more willing to sacrifice herself than your average SHIELD agent.

Presumably Hank didn't approve, and fighting her over joining could have built enough animosity between them that she wouldn't be willing to accept his help or protection.

And of course Hank has decades of espionage work in his background and a intimate knowledge of SHIELD's capabilities and techniques, something he would have been extra careful to keep up on while Hope was working for them.

I think you just have to accept that there's more than one difference despite the premise (Bruce returning to Betty and working pizza delivery for example). If there was just one change it was years earlier and already spread out.

Pretty sure the pizza uniform was a disguise, not an actual job.

[DigoDragon]

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Since this started in the restaurant with the giant donut, Tony and Rhodey would have already had their party fight so the US military should already have the War Machine armor.

I kind of wonder what will happen with Vanko though. His target for vengeance got murdered by someone else, does he just make a career at Hammer Industries?

Spoiler: Iron Man 2+

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Ah, the donut was after their argument. Dang, I've officially reached that saturation point that I can't remember back past a certain point in the MCU. XD

Ok so War Machine is still a go.

Not only Vanko, but Killian in the third movie. I suppose the Extremis project still goes on, but a small chunk of using it to attack Tony isn't there.

If it helps, I enjoyed all three.

Same. The first was my favorite purely because Peggy's glee at kicking butt is a riot. Liked three's interesting twist, and while two was perhaps the weakest, it was still a fun premise to watch.

I know, I'm overthinking this, but I can't stop

Isn't overthinking things part of the charm in these What If series? How changing one thing can ripple through so much....

[Psyren]

Isn't overthinking things part of the charm in these What If series? How changing one thing can ripple through so much....

It certainly is

I think it is going to be a mixture of both to keep things interesting. But that may be projection on my part, what I think makes a good series is that it surprises us and keeps things fresh. Thus randomness with tropes, mixing genres, etc.

But hey I am often wrong, and that is kind of the fun with What If?

Oh I'm sure it will happen again - for dense epsiodes like this one they're likely to just run out of time for having a proper dénouement - but as long as more of the episodes show the "stone" than not, I'll be happy. For me, the greater fun is in Uatu highlighting that tiny change, because no other character in Marvel is better positioned to see exactly what that is (and explain why) than him.

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Pretty sure it was Hank telling Hope how Janet died while Hope was still a child. So she grew up idolizing her mom, joined SHIELD in her honor, and was more willing to sacrifice herself than your average SHIELD agent.

Presumably Hank didn't approve, and fighting her over joining could have built enough animosity between them that she wouldn't be willing to accept his help or protection.

And of course Hank has decades of espionage work in his background and a intimate knowledge of SHIELD's capabilities and techniques, something he would have been extra careful to keep up on while Hope was working for them.

That's what I find curious, he was extra careful with that but apparently not with protecting her. It's the kind of gap Uatu could have taken care of in a sentence, had they had time.

Same. The first was my favorite purely because Peggy's glee at kicking butt is a riot. Liked three's interesting twist, and while two was perhaps the weakest, it was still a fun premise to watch.

The second was the weakest for me too. "Tcharlord Hood the Marty Stu" is a decent comedy premise but not really a world I'm interested in coming back to, even with the wham at the end.

[Dragonus45]

The second was the weakest for me too. "Tcharlord Hood the Marty Stu" is a decent comedy premise but not really a world I'm interested in coming back to, even with the wham at the end.

I couldn't even get into it as a comedy premise, it played itself too straight and felt like it really wanted me to engage with it seriously.

[theNater]

That's what I find curious, he was extra careful with that but apparently not with protecting her.

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Because a key part of being extra careful is limiting oneself to passive observation, instead of active interference. You'll note that less than a week passed between when he started interfering and when he got found out.

[Psyren]

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Because a key part of being extra careful is limiting oneself to passive observation, instead of active interference. You'll note that less than a week passed between when he started interfering and when he got found out.

He had no problem actively interfering when

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she wanted a suit to follow in Janet's footsteps - first forbidding her outright, and then when he realized she couldn't be dissuaded, made her a suit that was even more powerful than Scott's. For something similar to not happen here - in a universe where he had the resources to make a freaking Yellowjacket several years early while simultaneously getting his hands on SHIELD's most classified intel - it's jarring.

Again, I buy everything that happened in the episode itself, but I found the underlying premise a little silly. This is another one I wouldn't mind not coming back to, though it was certainly more fun/interesting than Tcharlord.

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I take back the last part - I would watch the hell out of Carol + Ancient One + Cap taking on King Loki and the entire Asgardian army!

[DigoDragon]

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I take back the last part - I would watch the hell out of Carol + Ancient One + Cap taking on King Loki and the entire Asgardian army!

Spoiler: EP3 premise

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The bonus beauty of this fight is the possibility of Cap wielding the hammer in that fight!

[Starbuck_II]

The second was the weakest for me too. "Tcharlord Hood the Marty Stu" is a decent comedy premise but not really a world I'm interested in coming back to, even with the wham at the end.

Oh, worse was the guard he recruited. He praised him way too much it felt cringey.

[Clertar]

Spoiler: E3 Villain motivation

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Couldn't the fact that Hank was potentially capable of protecting his daughter and yet she died while on a field mission be the element that took him from grieving to lustful for vengeange?

And yet, from what we know about the MCU, Hank would never have given his daughter a suit without the events of Ant-man, and much less so if she was employed for SHIELD. There's no way that would happen.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: E3 Villain motivation

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Couldn't the fact that Hank was potentially capable of protecting his daughter and yet she died while on a field mission be the element that took him from grieving to lustful for vengeange?

And yet, from what we know about the MCU, Hank would never have given his daughter a suit without the events of Ant-man, and much less so if she was employed for SHIELD. There's no way that would happen.

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Hope was never a SHIELD agent in the MCU

, so I don't know that this same reticence would have been a given. But you're right, it could be.

[Telwar]

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Hope was never a SHIELD agent in the MCU

, so I don't know that this same reticence would have been a given. But you're right, it could be.

TBH it seems like that's the obvious reason.

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Rage and shame for having the capacity to help her and not having done so quite possibly leafing to her death? Very easy for that to be turned outward.

[Thrudd]

TBH it seems like that's the obvious reason.

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Rage and shame for having the capacity to help her and not having done so quite possibly leafing to her death? Very easy for that to be turned outward.

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It's not in the MCU (yet), but Hank has well established mental health problems in the comics, brought on by his constant experimenting on himself. In fact, creating the yellow jacket persona occured following a personality break. He's done some bad stuff, even going against the Avengers. Since this is an alternate universe anyway, not the MCU proper, perhaps this version of Pym is closer to the comics. Hope's death created a breakdown, and his mental illness and aggressive tendencies took control.

[Clertar]

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Hope was never a SHIELD agent in the MCU

, so I don't know that this same reticence would have been a given. But you're right, it could be.

It is in the MCU that Hank left SHIELD in very bitter terms and doesn't trust them. In the canonical MCU timeline he was alreaday very reluctant to let his daughter suit up with Ant-man technology,

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so in the timeline where Hope is also working for SHIELD, I really don't see MCU Hank Pym giving her a Wasp suit.

[JadedDM]

Promo for episode 4. Looks like it's going to be a little...strange.

Spoiler: Video

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[Kareeah_Indaga]

Promo for episode 4. Looks like it's going to be a little...strange.

Sooo, shall we segue into the NWH speculations now, or wait until the episode actually airs?

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Don't read if you enjoyed Ep. 3.

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Looks like this one focused on "what if all the voice acting dropped in quality severely?" Like, my feelings about the rest of the MCU aside, at least everything I had seen so far has good acting.

[Mordar]

Why would they need to imagine wildly different scenarios that only you seem to have a hangup about?

Because that's the entire point of the What If format. If they don't, why bother?

I'm with GloatingSwine on this one. Episode 2 was what I pictured when the series was announced, and it was a terrific mix of meta gags and character exploration while telling a new story. Episode 1 had an interesting premise and then discarded the potential to just hit the same beats as First Avenger. I would have been more interested to see what happened after the stinger, where Captain Carter replaced Loki. Take that (and the changes that spring from it, like no invasion of New York) and tell a new story with Captain Carter. Don't have her repeat everything Steve did - not because there's anything particularly wrong with that, but because there's far more potential for interesting stories.

These episodes need to know their limitations and use their time wisely. Episode 2 spent the minimum amount of time on what we already know and quickly branched out into new territory while blending the spirit of the two stories they combined. Episode 1 spent most of its time recapping plot points we've seen before and only went into new territory in the final 5 minutes.

While I have a clear preference of magnitude of change (either in the event or the outcome), I think both were fine for the books. With a much lower quantity of "issues" available in the Disney+ animated format, I think Captain Carter was a miss and T'charlord was perhaps more appropriate to a later episode in the series...but I also accept it as just a very special episode for Chadwick Boseman.

But in any event, that victory will be short-lived, given that [REDACTED} can probably solo the entire Asgardian army,

Sadly, they are the Red Shirts of the MCU. Like 7 dark elves tore through the entire palace guard, even without the mystical steroid stone.

For this third episode, this was the first I actually liked. The previous two were... oof, that was rough. But this one was decent. Still not great, but enough to make me look forward to the next one.

Before I go clicking on spoilers is episode 3 any good? Cus 1 was just ok but two was total trash and I'm wondering if three managed to be any better.

Based on this assessment, I don't know if our tastes line up enough for any review I'd give to be helpful anyway.

While I don't quite agree with Murk, I think they were both opportunity cost-based misses. I much prefer more wildly divergent paths. Episode 1 changes not-so-much. Episode 2 changes things in Squirrel Girl fashion (which I find less appealing), but it does make the Collector look more potent for a minute or two...even if it kind of chumps another near-cosmic-power.

Episode 3 matched my tastes better, so I judge it "good"...but I cannot speak to any dramatic change in quality. Perhaps even a bit of a backslide in some elements.

Reverse psychology aside, overall this was my favorite episode so far. That has less to do with relative concerns of quality and more the fact that I'm just more interested in the characters here than I was in Peggy Carter/Red Skull or Starlord/Thanos/The Collector.

If I do have a (minor) criticism it would relate to the villain:

Spoiler: Villain Motivation

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I definitely buy the premise of someone smart armed with the Yellowjacket being able to assassinate all the Avengers, but the plot justification for that feels thin.

As above, I much preferred 3 to 1 or 2, mostly because it was the largest variation from the norm...or at least would lead to the largest immediate-term deviation from the norm...but also because it was not about role-swapping characters.

Spoiler: Villain

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My immediate response was that he used the Yellowjacket suit that Darren Cross made and it drove him mad...second thought was he spent too much time in the quantum realm trying to rescue Janet/time travel to rescue Hope...and the third thought was Pym has always been there to go mad. I know you would prefer to see the precipitating event, but I spent most of Ant-Man waiting for Pym to show his insanity, so I was conditioned to respond to this episode with "That makes sense."

Does it matter what the triggering event was?
Of course with the first few episodes before episode 3 we are told the pattern 1 event changed, we see that 1 event, but we learn that ripples can lead to greater ripples we lose track of the stone hitting the water.

I seem to recall a lot of the issues laid out the triggering event immediately...but for this to have any mystery, we couldn't be shown the event without knowing what was going to come into play.

Would it have been good/enjoyable/satisfying to get the trigger in a flashback, perhaps right before the reveal?

- M

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Don't read if you enjoyed Ep. 3.

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Looks like this one focused on "what if all the voice acting dropped in quality severely?" Like, my feelings about the rest of the MCU aside, at least everything I had seen so far has good acting.

Really? I thought this one was pretty good considering it had most of the movie actors (Ruffalo, Jackson, Hiddleston, Douglas). Even the understudies like Lake Bell for Black Widow did a decent job I thought.

Spoiler: @Mordar

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Eh, I much prefer the Pym we got in the movies to the one here, but you do you.

As far as deviations, there were plenty of beats here that lined up with the films (the donut, the hammer, the Destroyer, Carol's pager) so I'm happy with that

[Mordar]

Spoiler: @Mordar

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Eh, I much prefer the Pym we got in the movies to the one here, but you do you.

As far as deviations, there were plenty of beats here that lined up with the films (the donut, the hammer, the Destroyer, Carol's pager) so I'm happy with that

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I thought the What If version appealed as fan service, and my made up title would be "What If...Henry Pym actually managed to destroy the Avengers", so for this format, I liked Crazy Hank.
For the movies, though, I enjoyed Michael Douglas as the old and acidic Hank Pym. Without him I don't think I would have liked the film nearly as much as I did. I waited for crazy, and thought Ant Man and Wasp might still give it to me...but I was never disappointed it didn't come.

- M

[Peelee]

Really? I thought this one was pretty good considering it had most of the movie actors (Ruffalo, Jackson, Hiddleston, Douglas).

That was part of the problem. Live-action actors don't often make good voice actors, and this was a prime example, IMO. Accuracy in sounding like the live-action character* is secondary to sounding like an actor and not someone just phoning it in.

* heavy asterisk here since there are some people who are just insane at sounding like other real-life people. In the documentary I Know That Voice, Maurice LeMarche talks about the first voice he really did, where his grade-school teacher did an average-for-a-grade-school-teacher Columbo impression, and as he walked out of class, LeMarche stopped, looked at the teacher, and if you close your eyes you would swear 100% that Peter Falk suddenly walked on screen, said to the teacher exactly how to inflect to really get the Columbo voice. The Futurama audio commentaries really opened my eyes to what a top-notch voice actor can do - they can deliver a line, and the director can request an incredibly minor tonal or emotional change that sounds honestly pretty insane to even ask, let alone expect someone to deliver, and they'll just deliver it exactly how the director wanted, and it makes you marvel in wonder and awe at the impeccable control over their voices that these people have, and that episode 3 sorely lacked, in my (untrained, unprofessional) opinion

The previous episodes sounded perfectly fine. This one sounded like they just took the first take of every line. It was pretty jarring for me.

ETA: I'm actually more or less enjoying the stories, too, which is pretty neat.

[GloatingSwine]

That was part of the problem. Live-action actors don't often make good voice actors, and this was a prime example, IMO. Accuracy in sounding like the live-action character* is secondary to sounding like an actor and not someone just phoning it in.

Enough of them will be experienced in doing ADR that they should, they probably just didn't budget enough time to get them to do proper takes.

Anyway, Episode 4 exists.

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And that's all, really. It just exists, it's a reasonable twilight zone style self contained thing, but it gains absolutely nothing by being told with Dr. Strange. It doesn't hook into his preexisting character (because changing the crash this way relies on him not being a totally self-absorbed ass, which is kinda the point of him before his character journey), so it doesn't feel like a path he would reasonably have taken.

It feels like a pre-existing idea that had this character dropped into it rather than a story that could only be told with Dr. Strange.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Enough of them will be experienced in doing ADR that they should, they probably just didn't budget enough time to get them to do proper takes.

Anyway, Episode 4 exists.

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And that's all, really. It just exists, it's a reasonable twilight zone style self contained thing, but it gains absolutely nothing by being told with Dr. Strange. It doesn't hook into his preexisting character (because changing the crash this way relies on him not being a totally self-absorbed ass, which is kinda the point of him before his character journey), so it doesn't feel like a path he would reasonably have taken.

It feels like a pre-existing idea that had this character dropped into it rather than a story that could only be told with Dr. Strange.

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I think it’s there to educate the audience on ‘Absolute Points.’ Presumably those will come up again later.

[GloatingSwine]

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I think it’s there to educate the audience on ‘Absolute Points.’ Presumably those will come up again later.

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I wouldn't bet on it. I have every suspicion that time travel will change things or not as required by the plot. I would not be surprised if the concept is never discussed again.

Don't think of these What If? stories in terms of continuity, there are no fixed rules, only what is required by the story at hand.

[Spacewolf]

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It felt like the whole absolute point thing was abit pointless, why not just call it a paradox which they actually do afew times.

The whole eating thing was somewhat cool for all the designs of the beasties but I'd have rather had a longer non montage scene of him making a deal with one monster, basically a reverse of his greatest moment to show his fall. The ending rather than the strange on strange battle could have been him vs the monster as it comes to collect before fails and is imprisoned.

[GloatingSwine]

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It felt like the whole absolute point thing was abit pointless, why not just call it a paradox which they actually do afew times.

The whole eating thing was somewhat cool for all the designs of the beasties but I'd have rather had a longer non montage scene of him making a deal with one monster, basically a reverse of his greatest moment to show his fall. The ending rather than the strange on strange battle could have been him vs the monster as it comes to collect before fails and is imprisoned.

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The ending had to have the "failure disguised as success" thing to succeed in its twilight zone/outer limits story ambition though. He has to turn himself into something Christine would reject in the course of saving her.

That was, ultimately, more powerful than the whole "change this fixed point in time and the whole universe collapses" bit, because the consequences of it were organically connected to the story not "well that's just how time works this episode". Gotta have a sting in the tail, that was a better one than the other one.