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2007-11-14, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
I'm pretty sure that these would stack, but just thought I'd make sure.
If a character who is not proficient with an exotic weapon, and uses an improvised version (e.g. a length of rope as a whip), they'd get a -8 to hit, right? -4 for improvised weapons, plus -4 for lack of proficiency.
Am I right?For the last time, it stands for Shadow of Darkness!
Thankin' Nevitan fer me babytar!
Kasaad Shadowweb-Chitine Paladin of Freedom (now a clickable link!).
Genderbender week comin' up! SoDess by Bisected8 *applause*
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2007-11-14, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- IPR Violation
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
No, the penalty for using an improvised weapon is actually a penalty for non-proficiency.
Originally Posted by SRD
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2007-11-14, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Location
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Could you take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it? And would it apply to:
a) One specific improvised weapon (this table here)
b) One specific object (tables)
c) One specific class of object (furniture)
d) One specific size of object (Large)
e) All improvised weapons (like the Drunken Master ability)Catapultam habeo. Nisi omniam pecuniam mihi dabis, saxum immanem ad caput tuum mittam.
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2007-11-14, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2007-11-14, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Tehehe.. that still reminds me of one of the best magical items in my games..
Once upon a time in a land long lost, a dragon was terrorising the city, it was the last hope, the last change, a wizard, and a warrior, banded together to use might and magic to overcome the dragon, but there was an accident, the wizard was enchanting the warriors already powerful sword and there was an explosion, killing them both and destroying the weapon.
But not was all lost, the magical effect had taken place in a new home, in the debris.. and skittling across the floor from the explosion, barley surviving was...
The +4 Dragonbane Chair leg! (Improvised club!)
Sadly no one noticed and the dragon ate everyone...
its still a good story
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2007-11-14, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Is an "improvised club" really even possible? I mean, a club is already basically an improvised cudgel, except that a blunt stick that you whack people with is simple enough that even the improvised version is eligible for proficiency and such.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2007-11-14, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
- Location
- Duvall, WA
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Depends on whether you count a baseball bat as a club, or a wooden mace. (Is there a difference between a club and a wooden mace in RAW? My brains turning to mush as it is.)
I think it is considered to be a club, and there is some semblance of balance to it, making it a non-improvised weapon. The same way a quarterstaff isn't just a big stick, it does require work to achieve a balanced weapon out of it.
(Which is why I dislike the fact that quarterstaves, clubs, and slings cost nothing. That's piffle written by someone who's never used such weapons and found out how much crafting is actually involved in making a functional weapon out of wood or cloth.)Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2007-11-14, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
(Which is why I dislike the fact that quarterstaves, clubs, and slings cost nothing. That's piffle written by someone who's never used such weapons and found out how much crafting is actually involved in making a functional weapon out of wood or cloth.)Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2007-11-15, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Austin, TX
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
I tend not to fuss about weapon proficiencies too much, and I prefer the weapon group proficiencies optional rules in UA/SRD much more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/bu...roupFeats.htm). It really doesn't make sense that someone skilled in fighting with a sword or what-have-you can't adapt similar principles to a stick (and win, a la Musashi with his oar). I would house rule that if the improvised piece of wood was sturdy/well balanced enough as is that it could be used as a club or staff without penalty.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2007-11-15, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Crimson Citadel
- Gender
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2007-11-15, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Oakdale, PA
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Why isn't a club, mace (light and heavy), and morningstar the same thing as far as proficiencies go? I'm pretty sure if you handed me a mace I'd do just as well as I would with a wooden version of it. And for some reason, if my spear is just a wee bit longer I can't effectively attack with it... huh?
Then if I take the feat Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), and use it two handed, I can't use a bastard sword or greatsword two handed without taking huge penalties... what?
If I go to a river a pick up a smooth stone, it doesn't throw as accurate as a lead bullet... whatever...
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2007-11-15, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Austin, TX
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Refer to my post above for a link to the Weapon Group Proficiency rules, which are official and address the very issues you just described.
My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2007-11-15, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Orlando, FL
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
This doesn't really seem to be relevant to me... improvised or not, if you practice with it you could become proficient in using it as a weapon.
I mean, it's not like a scythe was meant to be used as a weapon either... or any of the other dozens of farm implements that have made it onto the weapon list over the years.Kungaloosh!
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2007-11-15, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
- Location
- Duvall, WA
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Yeah. In RL when they turned farm implements into proper weapons, they changed a lot to make them workable. Scythes became fauchards, pruning hooks became guisarmes, the threshing flail looks significantly different from the weapon flail, etc. While you can still see where they came from, there was a lot of adjusting done to them to make them non-improvised weapons.
Add in the fact that a lot of the 'exotic' weapons on the D&D lists just never happened in RL for various reasons, and that means trying to use logic and RL 'reasonableness' to decide whether a weapon is improvised or not is kinda a nonstarter. The game just doesn't model reality enough with it's weapon lists to use that as a basis.Fhaolan by me! Raga avatar by Mephibosheth!
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2007-11-15, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- My own little world
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
A mace is actually significantly different from a club. The first and most obvious difference is that a club is made of (generally meaning probably unless it is masterwork) unworked wood and a mace is made out of worked metal. This affects the balance of the weapon and the most effective way to use it.
The mace has distinct points on it that would do more damage if they make contact with an enemy where as the club is basically just as effective no matter which face or, possibly even end, you hit them with. This changes the balance of the weapon and while you could probably do alright with a club if you have used a mace the reverse might not be true. Then again general weapons training would help in either case.
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2007-11-15, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- The Land of Cleves
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
the threshing flail looks significantly different from the weapon flail, etc.
On the mace/club question, the biggest difference will be the weight distribution. A club has the weight distributed more or less uniformly along the length, while a mace, and even more so a morningstar, will have it concentrated at the end.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2007-11-15, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2007-11-15, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Orlando, FL
- Gender
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2007-11-15, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- IPR Violation
- Gender
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
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2007-11-15, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...
Conveniently I'm not running a campaign, so it's doubly irrelevant
RAW aside, I personally don't think Exotic Weapon Proficiency would be suitable for an improvised weapon; it should be a different feat. Preferably one without the minimum BAB requirement, I imagine it'd be the people with BAB 0 that would be most likely to rely on improvised weapons.
If the campaign used the aforementioned weapon groups variant, this feat would also serve to add the weapon to a thematically similar weapon group for the character; so as to allow the character to gain weapon-specific benefits without penalizing them if they later decide to move onto similar non-improvised weaponry.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas