The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[veti]

Skyrim wasnt asked to put up with ANY persecution until they started openly rabble rousing about the White Gold Concordant. Thats the point. The Nords were allowed to self police without any oversight as long as they werent openly proclaiming their defiance to the sky. Guess what they ended up doing.

Openly denying your religion makes you an apostate. Openly denying it while still practising it in secret makes you, at the very least, a hypocrite, and quite possibly an apostate as well (depending what the tenets of the religion itself have to say about it). The terms of the concordat were never meant to be observed, they were meant to bring about the collapse of the empire.

And the emperor signed it anyway. And to compound that folly, he's now trying to enforce it. The empire should collapse. It would leave everyone better off.

[Batcathat]

Yeah, while open rebellion probably wasn't the right move from a strategic point of view, saying the Nords weren't oppressed just because the ban on their favorite god wasn't as harshly enforced as it could have been seems harsh.

But of course both sides have a point, I like that about the Skyrim Civil War since far too many plots in fantasy have very obvious good guys and bad guys. (Not that Skyrim is lacking in very obvious bad guys, but still).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

We should probably start looking into a new thread title.

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: We Don’t Need Your Civil War

[Yuki Akuma]

It's been eleven years and people are still arguing about the Civil War and the Thalmor.

Can we please have TES6 before I die

[Lurkmoar]

It's been eleven years and people are still arguing about the Civil War and the Thalmor.

Can we please have TES6 before I die

It'll probably be about 4-5 years after Starfield's release. Which was pushed back. So, maybe we'll get TES6 by 2030!

It's mind boggling to me that Bethesda still works like a small game developer(in output) when Microsoft shelled out billions for it. In fact, I'm trying to remember if they've released anything since the Microsoft acquisition, Anniversary Edition? I forget exactly if it came out before or after the purchase.

[Resileaf]

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Still talking about the Civil War
The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Still fighting the Civil War

[Fyraltari]

the Empire has given the Thalmor free run of Skyrim, and makes not the slightest effort to protect its citizens against persecution, kidnapping and summary murder by the Justiciars

Not true. Remember the quest to free the Gray-Mane guy held captive by the Thalmor? Turns out that if you're a Legate of the Legion, you can just talk to Tullius about it and he'll give youna written order for his release. One that the Thalmor grudgingly accept because they don't want to piss the legion off.

The Empire is dying, it needs to fall and let its provinces find their own feet.

That much is true, Talos himself said as much in Morrowind. The problem of the Empire is that, as mich as they like to tout their multiculturalism and elinghtenment, it's still a Cyrodiil-(and-Skyrim-)centric colonialisy entreprise, that imposed cohesion by force as much as it did by genuinely trying to bridge the cultural gaps between the provinces. Leading to responses like the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor.

Not to mention its apalling treatment of minotaurs, goblins and other non-citizen races.

And Skyrim is being asked to put up with far worse persecution than ever pertained in Hammerfell.

Nah man, Hammerfell was asked to cede territory. If you think the Thalmor are bad in Skyrim, imagine what they're like within their own borders.

Also, my vote for The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Still Fighting the Civil War.

[Taevyr]

While I like the civil war for thread title, we can be more creative than that!

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Keep this War Civil, please

[Imbalance]

As the great bard once asked:

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

[Rynjin]

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Old Enough to Go to War

Alternatively The Elder Scrolls XVIII: What Is It Good For?

[veti]

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: Old Enough to Go to War

+1 for referencing the number. Nicely done.

Not true. Remember the quest to free the Gray-Mane guy held captive by the Thalmor? Turns out that if you're a Legate of the Legion, you can just talk to Tullius about it and he'll give youna written order for his release. One that the Thalmor grudgingly accept because they don't want to piss the legion off.

So a high ranking legion officer is able to pull strings to get a personal friend out of Thalmor custody. After the war is won, mind.

Not seeing this as evidence of the legion extending fair protection to imperial citizens.

What I do know is that if the Thalmor attack me on the open road, the Legion - if present - will stand by and do nothing. Whereas if I attack the Thalmor in the same situation, the legion supports them.

In addition, one side of the civil war has torture chambers. One side is willing to execute people, without trial, for the flimsiest of reasons. One side will settle for nothing less than the death of its enemies. One side puts Maven "Punch Me" Blackbriar in charge of a major city, and supports a spineless cipher to be High Queen.

The other side is the Stormcloaks.

[Grim Portent]

Not to mention its apalling treatment of minotaurs, goblins and other non-citizen races.

Bloody Alessian Order, dehumanising the minotaurs.

As the great bard once asked:

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

This one gets my vote.

[Spore]

In addition, one side of the civil war has torture chambers. One side is willing to execute people, without trial, for the flimsiest of reasons. One side will settle for nothing less than the death of its enemies. One side puts Maven "Punch Me" Blackbriar in charge of a major city, and supports a spineless cipher to be High Queen.

The other side is the Stormcloaks.

You think the Nordic racists are a smidge better? Think again.

[veti]

You think the Nordic racists are a smidge better? Think again.

Heck yeah.

When you first arrive in Windhelm, there's a woman being verbally harassed by two civilians because of her race. That's bad, sure. But you know what's worse?

Having your freaking head cut off. That's worse. And that's the sight that greets you on your first entry to Solitude.

I don't like Ulfric or the Stormcloaks, and I think Windhelm is the most depressing place in the game (by a short head from Markarth). But the other side is far worse. It's not even close.

[WritersBlock]

A lot of people who play and talk about Skyrim seem to forget just how racist and horrible the Dunmer/Dark Elves are/were. FAR worse than a lot of the Nords. Play Morrowind again and listen to the garbage that spews out of a lot of the Dunmer mouth's (Well more like read, but you get the idea) Rolf or whoever that Nord in Windhelm is needs to stop though, I am sure a lot of us can agree on that.

[Batcathat]

This discussion kind of makes me wish there was some equivalent of the Wild Card ending from Fallout New Vegas, ie. neutralize everyone and take control yourself. I wonder if there's a mod for that?

[Vinyadan]

A lot of people who play and talk about Skyrim seem to forget just how racist and horrible the Dunmer/Dark Elves are/were. FAR worse than a lot of the Nords. Play Morrowind again and listen to the garbage that spews out of a lot of the Dunmer mouth's (Well more like read, but you get the idea) Rolf or whoever that Nord in Windhelm is needs to stop though, I am sure a lot of us can agree on that.

A great thing about Morrowind writing was that you were an outsider, and you were the target, not the origin, of the hate. And you, an outlander, also were a messianic figure come to save all Dunmer, fulfill Ashlander prophecy, defeat the Devil in personal combat, make right the mistakes of their gods, and thus show in very practical terms how utterly wrong the disdain towards the outlanders is.
You also can't join the most racist organisations (the Camonna Tong and the Sixth House) and you can't advance the main quest or rise to the top in the Houses without killing the two racist leaders (Venim and Orvas Dren).

In Skyrim, I don't see any of these elements. You won't rise to the top, you won't show that racism is wrong through your deeds, you won't take the place of Tullius or Ulfric. Instead, you bring them to victory.

[Fyraltari]

+1 for referencing the number. Nicely done.



So a high ranking legion officer is able to pull strings to get a personal friend out of Thalmor custody. After the war is won, mind.

Personal friend? Neither the player nor Tullius have ever met the man. And that's a possibility as soon as you make Legate which happens before the end of the war.

Not seeing this as evidence of the legion extending fair protection to imperial citizens.

Sure, but it's evidence the Legion can and will impose some limits on Thalmor authority. MEaning they don't have "a free hand".

What I do know is that if the Thalmor attack me on the open road, the Legion - if present - will stand by and do nothing. Whereas if I attack the Thalmor in the same situation, the legion supports them.

Can't say that I remember that happening, though I'll take your word for it, I probably just never ran into those specific situations.
In addition, one side of the civil war has torture chambers. One side is willing to execute people, without trial, for the flimsiest of reasons. One side will settle for nothing less than the death of its enemies. One side puts Maven "Punch Me" Blackbriar in charge of a major city, and supports a spineless cipher to be High Queen.

The other side is the Stormcloaks.[/QUOTE]

Everyone i TES has torture chambers, including the Stormcloaks. Go ask the people of Cidhna mine how great Ulfric and his people are, too. The Legion has Maven Black-Briar, the Stormcloaks have Thognvor Silver-blood, it's a wash.

[Taevyr]

As the great bard once asked:

The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

This one has my vote

[veti]

Personal friend? Neither the player nor Tullius have ever met the man.

The point is, he's getting released because you begged it as a special favour. (If you want to spend that kind of capital on a total stranger, that's your concern.) But he's only getting out as a favour, not because of law or justice or even mercy.

Sure, but it's evidence the Legion can and will impose some limits on Thalmor authority. MEaning they don't have "a free hand".

OK... the Legion can get the occasional individual out of Thalmor custody. If the Thalmor haven't just killed him already. I'm having a hard time seeing that as "imposing limits".

Everyone i TES has torture chambers, including the Stormcloaks. Go ask the people of Cidhna mine how great Ulfric and his people are, too. The Legion has Maven Black-Briar, the Stormcloaks have Thognvor Silver-blood, it's a wash.

Cidhna Mine, lest we forget, is at the start of the game an Imperial facility in an Imperial city. Thongvor Silver-Blood is a piece of work, sure, but let's remember that for the past 25 years, the previous, Imperial-aligned, jarl of Markarth has also done nothing, or at least nothing effective, to restrain Thonar or to check rampant corruption in his own city guard.

No, Markarth is a cesspit under either faction. That's a wash by itself. Maven remains to be balanced.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure there's no torture chamber in Windhelm, or in Riften. And no executioner, whiling away his free time at the inn. The Stormcloaks are the ones who repeatedly try to show clemency to their enemies: to Rikke, for instance, and to Elisif in the end (and by extension, to all the deposed jarls living in the Blue Palace). There's no such equivalence from the Empire - they make it very clear there's no alternative for Ulfric that doesn't involve dying, and no safe haven for his supporters.

As I keep saying, Ulfric and his people are not "great". A lot of them would easily qualify as scum. All I'm saying is, they're still better than the Imperials.

[Resileaf]

Edit: And I'm pretty sure there's no torture chamber in Windhelm, or in Riften. And no executioner, whiling away his free time at the inn. The Stormcloaks are the ones who repeatedly try to show clemency to their enemies: to Rikke, for instance, and to Elisif in the end (and by extension, to all the deposed jarls living in the Blue Palace). There's no such equivalence from the Empire - they make it very clear there's no alternative for Ulfric that doesn't involve dying, and no safe haven for his supporters.

So I guess the Grey-Manes being specifically protected from retaliation after the battle of Whiterun in an Imperial victory while the Stormcloaks start looting, heavily taxing and outright threatening the Battleborns with complete destitution doesn't count?

[Keltest]

The point is, he's getting released because you begged it as a special favour. (If you want to spend that kind of capital on a total stranger, that's your concern.) But he's only getting out as a favour, not because of law or justice or even mercy.



OK... the Legion can get the occasional individual out of Thalmor custody. If the Thalmor haven't just killed him already. I'm having a hard time seeing that as "imposing limits".



Cidhna Mine, lest we forget, is at the start of the game an Imperial facility in an Imperial city. Thongvor Silver-Blood is a piece of work, sure, but let's remember that for the past 25 years, the previous, Imperial-aligned, jarl of Markarth has also done nothing, or at least nothing effective, to restrain Thonar or to check rampant corruption in his own city guard.

No, Markarth is a cesspit under either faction. That's a wash by itself. Maven remains to be balanced.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure there's no torture chamber in Windhelm, or in Riften. And no executioner, whiling away his free time at the inn. The Stormcloaks are the ones who repeatedly try to show clemency to their enemies: to Rikke, for instance, and to Elisif in the end (and by extension, to all the deposed jarls living in the Blue Palace). There's no such equivalence from the Empire - they make it very clear there's no alternative for Ulfric that doesn't involve dying, and no safe haven for his supporters.

As I keep saying, Ulfric and his people are not "great". A lot of them would easily qualify as scum. All I'm saying is, they're still better than the Imperials.

Windhelm is just more subtle about it. The argonians arent allowed to enter the city at all (keep in mind its basically a tundra out there even in the warm seasons) and the Dunmer are forced to live in a ghetto, when they get any protection at all.

And if Markarth is a wash, then so is Riften, because the Stormcloak jarl sure as heck isnt doing anything to restrain Maven, considering her an honest citizen and good friend helping her with the Thieves' Guild problem.

Ulfric also, you know, murdered the king and is attempting to overthrow the legitimate government, so of course he isnt going to see any clemency. He's a rebel, a firebrand and a murderer. Ulfric spares Elisif because he wants to use her as a puppet for the appearance of legitimacy, not out of any sense of mercy.

[Rynjin]

Heck yeah.

When you first arrive in Windhelm, there's a woman being verbally harassed by two civilians because of her race. That's bad, sure.

Don't forget that that's the BEST treatment of minorities in Stormcloak-controlled Skyrim. Are you forgetting the fact that it's written in actual, real law that Khajiit and Argonians aren't even allowed to enter cities?

But you know what's worse? Having your freaking head cut off. That's worse. And that's the sight that greets you on your first entry to Solitude.

I can't think of a country, fictional or otherwise, that wouldn't do the exact same thing to someone that aided and abetted the assassination of a political figure.

[Batcathat]

Ulfric also, you know, murdered the king and is attempting to overthrow the legitimate government, so of course he isnt going to see any clemency. He's a rebel, a firebrand and a murderer. Ulfric spares Elisif because he wants to use her as a puppet for the appearance of legitimacy, not out of any sense of mercy.

I feel like the idea that he murdered the king is mostly Empire propaganda. Ulfric challenged the king to a duel, the king accepted and lost. While I find the idea of duels as part of politics rather silly, that doesn't make it murder. Ulfric's opponents seem to mean that using the Thu'um was somehow cheating, but I don't think any of them explain why that would be the case, since even they don't seem to claim there was any actual rule against it.

Don't get me wrong, Ulfric has plenty of bad qualities, but calling someone murderer after they won a legitimate duel is rather questionable.

[Rynjin]

I feel like the idea that he murdered the king is mostly Empire propaganda. Ulfric challenged the king to a duel, the king accepted and lost. While I find the idea of duels as part of politics rather silly, that doesn't make it murder. Ulfric's opponents seem to mean that using the Thu'um was somehow cheating, but I don't think any of them explain why that would be the case, since even they don't seem to claim there was any actual rule against it.

Don't get me wrong, Ulfric has plenty of bad qualities, but calling someone murderer after they won a legitimate duel is rather questionable.

Re: Shouting: I think it counts as a sucker punch at best. For someone who claims to be about honor, challenging a man to a sword fight and then blowing him apart with magic is hypocritical.

And there's also the fact that there are conflicting reports on whether Torygg actually accepted the duel or not. Ulfric certainly challenged him, and certainly killed him, but it's unclear whether he actually said he'd fight or if Ulfric took his turning down the duel as a sign of cowardice and just killed him anyway.

[Keltest]

Re: Shouting: I think it counts as a sucker punch at best. For someone who claims to be about honor, challenging a man to a sword fight and then blowing him apart with magic is hypocritical.

And there's also the fact that there are conflicting reports on whether Torygg actually accepted the duel or not. Ulfric certainly challenged him, and certainly killed him, but it's unclear whether he actually said he'd fight or if Ulfric took his turning down the duel as a sign of cowardice and just killed him anyway.

The fact that Ulfric fled the city immediately afterwards, and that he was apparently being pursued, would strongly suggest that whether Torygg accepted or not, Ulfric did not follow the proper traditions when he killed Torygg.

Remember that he wasnt a criminal at that point, so if he hadnt done anything egregious, he wouldnt have to flee.

[Batcathat]

Re: Shouting: I think it counts as a sucker punch at best. For someone who claims to be about honor, challenging a man to a sword fight and then blowing him apart with magic is hypocritical.

If he specifically said "let's fight to death with swords"? Sure, he'd be a liar and a hypocrite. But if it was just supposed to be a fight to death in general, there's no reason not to do it.

Personally, I'd find anyone in a fight to the death not using every resource at their disposal an idiot who deserved to lose.

The fact that Ulfric fled the city immediately afterwards, and that he was apparently being pursued, would strongly suggest that whether Torygg accepted or not, Ulfric did not follow the proper traditions when he killed Torygg.

Remember that he wasnt a criminal at that point, so if he hadnt done anything egregious, he wouldnt have to flee.

Yeah, maybe. But it could just as strongly suggest that he fled because the king's supporters didn't accept the outcome and wanted to kill or imprison him. Saying "he ran, so he must me guilty of something" seems rather questionable.

[Grim Portent]

Or that he had no faith in the King's court to honour the old laws that are supposed to govern them.

That his duel was legal is something that seems generally accepted by the Jarls who're traditionally minded, including Balgruuf. Indeed the Empire wanting to arrest him for it is one of the points in favour of the Stormcloaks. Skyrim has it's own laws, and a contest between two Jarls is their own affair, much like a conflict between the Great Houses of Morrowind. That Ulfric was using the duel to promote secessionist values doesn't stop it being an internal matter.

That it was old fashioned, stupid and unfair is also true however. One of Torygg's advisors (the vampire wizard) holds the opinion that if Ulfric had asked him to declare independance from the Empire, the High King would have done so. Instead Ulfric challenged him to a one sided duel which he couldn't refuse (refusing seems to mean you lose legitimacy as High King and a Moot is called anyway) then killed him by knocking him off his feet with the Thu'um and stabbing him to death. Not that Torygg stood a chance anyway, a young inexperienced man against a literal war hero is not exactly a fair fight, the Thu'um just serves to rub in Ulfric's connection to the Greybeards and Nord tradition.


A big point of contention between the Loyalists and Stormcloaks is if old traditions and laws are still important, a big chunk of the loyalists are of the opinion that Empire law should come first, dismissing the old traditions as barbaric and primitive. Skyrim has changed a lot over the past few centuries, but more so in some regions than others resulting in a culture clash between the more traditional Nords (who are still very different from the Nords of Oblivion or Morrowind) and the more Imperial influenced Nords.

I would personally consider the appropriate thing to be dividing Skyrim in two, according to the desires of the Jarls, if they can't all agree on a High King, then they shouldn't be a unified state anymore. Of course the subjects of the Jarls should get a chance to challenge them in whatever manner is legal for their given status beforehand if they disagree with what the Jarl is supporting.

[Keltest]

Yeah, maybe. But it could just as strongly suggest that he fled because the king's supporters didn't accept the outcome and wanted to kill or imprison him. Saying "he ran, so he must me guilty of something" seems rather questionable.

I mean I guess, but Nordic tradition also states that the Thu'um should not be used for war or anything like that (excepting the Dragonborn, who is blessed by the gods to do whatever they want with it). They had a whole conflict about that and everything, and Ulfric even trained with the Greybeards under that philosophy specifically under that premise.

[Grim Portent]

By the time of the duel he'd already broken that tenet twice, against the Dominion and the Forsworn. That he'd break it again in the duel and continue to break in it in the Civil War is consistent. A bit hypocritical, but he'd already broken the oath of pacifism when he left the Greybeards to join the Imperial Legion during the Great War, so he was hardly a good Greybeard at that point anyway.