The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion

[Batcathat]

They are software, they don't have intentionality.

Isn't that kind of a useless perspective in this kind of discussion? It's like saying the Thalmor aren't racist since they're following their programming. It's true, but kind of meaningless.

[Fyraltari]

She's never going to admit that because it would disprove the Thalmor's innate superiority.

Assuming you're not playing as Altmer, the Thalmor has no issue with saying the other races are better at violence than they are. Men being brutish savages is a big part of their rhetoric. They claim Elves to be wiser, more civilized, closer to the Aedra, things like that. Elenwen could spin that in her sleep: "We invite the elite of Skyrim to a nice dinner party and one of those ingrates uses our good graces to sneak in a murderer and defame us, this behaviour is precisely the reason why Tamriel needs a the benevolent, but firm guidance of an enlightened hand like ours."

Isn't that kind of a useless perspective in this kind of discussion? It's like saying the Thalmor aren't racist since they're following their programming. It's true, but kind of meaningless.

*Sotha Sil weeping in the distance*

[Delicious Taffy]

They are software, they don't have intentionality.

There's no difference between saying this and saying "Shut up, none of this is real, stop talking about it!".


On-topic though, I do wish we'd been able to finish the Civil War side story without the cliche, hamfisted "pick the red team or the blue team" BS. No matter which side you choose, there's no tangible difference to your raw gameplay experience. One of two towns will have a little more collision-free rubble you can just walk through, some guys will be racist at you in a slightly different way, and you won't see the other ending. That's it. You still have all the shops and quests and resources available in those towns. It's exactly as cosmetic as the different faction armor you'll get from the quests, and I kinda dislike that.

[halfeye]

Isn't that kind of a useless perspective in this kind of discussion? It's like saying the Thalmor aren't racist since they're following their programming. It's true, but kind of meaningless.

It depends how deep you are nesting the quotes. The Thalmor are written as racists, that's one deep, you head of into what would be speculation in real life and you're five or six deep, and that's different IMO.

[Rynjin]

They are software, they don't have intentionality.

The people that wrote them do have intentionality, so this point and the later one are moot. It's not meaningless to speculate about the internal lives of fictional characters by any means. It's entertaining if nothing else.

[Lurkmoar]

There's no difference between saying this and saying "Shut up, none of this is real, stop talking about it!".


On-topic though, I do wish we'd been able to finish the Civil War side story without the cliche, hamfisted "pick the red team or the blue team" BS. No matter which side you choose, there's no tangible difference to your raw gameplay experience. One of two towns will have a little more collision-free rubble you can just walk through, some guys will be racist at you in a slightly different way, and you won't see the other ending. That's it. You still have all the shops and quests and resources available in those towns. It's exactly as cosmetic as the different faction armor you'll get from the quests, and I kinda dislike that.

Civil War was supposed to have been more dynamic, but it was cut. Probably a combo of the 11/11/11 deadline and programming issues. Nuance is hard, yo.

[Vinyadan]

Civil War was supposed to have been more dynamic, but it was cut. Probably a combo of the 11/11/11 deadline and programming issues. Nuance is hard, yo.

For me, the biggest thing to show it is that there is no High King after the war. You recover the Crown, but someone puts it away in a locker and never mentions it again. When I played, I actually struggled to remember whether the combat missions were from a mod or part of the game, because they really aren't very inspired.

[Resileaf]

That's possible, but not certain. It may be that one or both of them are more imaginative than you're giving them credit for.

Personally, I can see Ulfric reaching out to Tullius with a proposal that looks something like "if you keep your troops out of our way, we'll kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim and then make no further attempt to secede from the Empire. When the Thalmor complain, tell them they're welcome to keep sending Justiciars as per the terms of the Concordat, but you can't control us and can't guarantee their safety in Skyrim. Of course if they try to invade they will be in breach of the Concordat, and Talos worship will be restored throughout the Empire."

The war remains officially a stalemate, with no one in overall control of Skyrim, but the two sides stop fighting. The Empire gets to keep its province, with its taxes and its troops, and Ulfric effectively shares power with an official Imperial governor in Skyrim, who might be Tullius or whoever else the Empire wants to appoint.

Ulfric has consistently shown himself to be one of the dumbest, most unreasonable characters in the game. He does not admit mistakes, he does not accept compromises. He's also power-hungry and will accept nothing less than complete control of Skyrim.

[Fyraltari]

will accept nothing less than complete control of Skyrim.

He literally does in seasons unending, though?

[Rater202]

He literally does in seasons unending, though?

1: That's temporary, the civil war starts again as soon as you complete the main quest.

2: Both Ulfric and Tullius use the whole thing for power plays and land grabs. I'm slightly sympathetic to Ulfric since here since his first demand is to get rid of the bitch that tortured him and gaslit him into thinking he was the reason the empire lost the war against the Thalmor but yeah, neither of them come across very well there.

[veti]

Ulfric has consistently shown himself to be one of the dumbest, most unreasonable characters in the game. He does not admit mistakes, he does not accept compromises. He's also power-hungry and will accept nothing less than complete control of Skyrim.

You could say very much the same, mutatis mutandis, of Tullius. Neither side shows much sense.

But, on the basis that people don't generally get to be leaders by being genuinely stupid, I prefer to assume that this is posturing for political reasons. Neither of them wants to be the first to hint at compromise, because it would cost them support, and that's the one currency neither of them can afford.

An externally applied shock could change that. Revelations about Ulfric's personal history and motivation might cause people to reassess their loyalty - either way. Knowing that, Ulfric might be motivated to propose an alternative that preserves his own status. And he'd also be able to put "Guaranteed future of Talos worship in Skyrim" on his resume.

[halfeye]

The people that wrote them do have intentionality, so this point and the later one are moot. It's not meaningless to speculate about the internal lives of fictional characters by any means. It's entertaining if nothing else.

It's fine up until one person says "a" and someone else says "not a", then there is no way to resolve that. Which is where I came in.

[Keltest]

You could say very much the same, mutatis mutandis, of Tullius. Neither side shows much sense.

But, on the basis that people don't generally get to be leaders by being genuinely stupid, I prefer to assume that this is posturing for political reasons.

That's remarkably optimistic of you. Tullius at least seems to recognize the whole conflict is stupid, and openly doesn't want to be there.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

That's remarkably optimistic of you. Tullius at least seems to recognize the whole conflict is stupid, and openly doesn't want to be there.

Yeah, for Tullius I got the impression he’s caught between a rock and a hard place, politically speaking. As he’s not the Emperor or a member of the Elder Council, he doesn’t have the authority to just say, “Okay, this is a waste of time and lives, let’s just let Ulfric have the eastern half of Skyrim and go home.” He has the Thalmor sabotaging his efforts to win the war quickly and decisively (witness Elenwen’s presence at Helgen). And if he steps down (assuming that’s even something he’s allowed to do) he gets replaced by someone else who will be in the exact same position, except possibly with less experience and/or awareness of what the Thalmor are trying to pull. Meanwhile, his men are getting killed pointlessly as the conflict grinds on.

And then Alduin the Worldeater shows up, adding random Dragon attacks to everything else!

[veti]

That's remarkably optimistic of you. Tullius at least seems to recognize the whole conflict is stupid, and openly doesn't want to be there.

That's just a way of saying he doesn't understand what the conflict is about. Rikke does, but he's just not interested when she talks about it.

Yeah, for Tullius I got the impression he’s caught between a rock and a hard place, politically speaking. As he’s not the Emperor or a member of the Elder Council, he doesn’t have the authority to just say, “Okay, this is a waste of time and lives, let’s just let Ulfric have the eastern half of Skyrim and go home.”

No, but if he could present the Emperor with a proposal that preserved Skyrim within the Empire and gave them plausible deniability over the unfortunate things that keep happening to the Thalmor - he might go for it. Or at least come back with a similarly productive counter proposal.

Tullius can't just give up, but he can negotiate.

[Rater202]

And if the Emperor happened to be assassinated by the Dark Brotherhood, then while the Elder Council is scrambling to replace him Tullius more or less becomes in charge of the Empire in Skyrim and whatever proposal he comes up with will probably be approved as long as it sounds good.

[Keltest]

That's just a way of saying he doesn't understand what the conflict is about. Rikke does, but he's just not interested when she talks about it.

He understands exactly what it's about. It's a stupid Nord pride thing, for the jarls on both sides. That's why Rikke is still with the Legion even though she was close friends with Ulfric and Galmar. Because at the end of the day she knows it's a stupid pride thing instead of actual injustice or oppression.

[Aeson]

Admitting that an unarmed guest(You didn't have weapons on you when you came in) could do that would shatter all their credibility. Killing you isn't worth it to undermine their position to the entire world.

Friendly reminder that at this point in the game, your vocal cords are lethal weapons and everyone knows it.

I realize it's a bit late to reply to this, but it's perhaps also worth pointing out that TES is a setting where "unarmed" doesn't really mean that much even without thu'um - it's not like there's any strong evidence that spellcasting requires focuses or material components, and the fact that Oblivion and Skyrim characters start with knowledge of at least one offensive and one healing spell regardless of background (not that Skyrim allows you to decide anything about your character's background beyond their race) suggests that it's pretty common for people to at least dabble in magic regardless of any cultural stigmas around it. Skyrim's version of Bound Sword is a novice-level spell so, at least going by game mechanics, pretty much anyone can cast it, and someone who knows it is probably about as unarmed when naked as a person who has a sheathed sword at their side or an axe on their belt - and then you get to the 'real' wizards, who'd probably sooner toss fireballs and lightning bolts or summon Daedra or enchant the guards into murderous rages where they're unable to tell friend from foe than summon up a sword with which to strike the guards.

Anti-magic magic - especially of a type suitable for social occasions - also seems to be largely absent from the setting by 4E 201; Sound, Silence, Drain/Damage Intelligence, and Drain/Damage [Skill] appear to have been lost in the centuries since Morrowind and Oblivion (not that most of these are particularly likely to be appropriate things to ask people to wear to a social event) while Drain/Damage Magicka only demonstrably exists as an instantaneous enchantment, a side-effect of shock damage, and an effect of some poisons, and on top of that detrimental enchantments seem to be virtually unknown so even if the effects needed to do it are out there it's unclear that second-/third-century Fourth Era enchanters could make a no-spellcasting handkerchief or whatever to hand to your high-status guests as they walk in the door.

[Rynjin]

I realize it's a bit late to reply to this, but it's perhaps also worth pointing out that TES is a setting where "unarmed" doesn't really mean that much even without thu'um - it's not like there's any strong evidence that spellcasting requires focuses or material components, and the fact that Oblivion and Skyrim characters start with knowledge of at least one offensive and one healing spell regardless of background (not that Skyrim allows you to decide anything about your character's background beyond their race) suggests that it's pretty common for people to at least dabble in magic regardless of any cultural stigmas around it.

This isn't just implied in mechanics, but by characters. Several NPCs in Oblivion mention dabbling in magic just for fun, or to have something convenient (like a Light spell) at hand when they need it.

Skyrim (as a game) is the outlier, due to general stigma Nords have against magic, and a similar attitude would be present in any game set in Hammerfell.

[Batcathat]

He understands exactly what it's about. It's a stupid Nord pride thing, for the jarls on both sides. That's why Rikke is still with the Legion even though she was close friends with Ulfric and Galmar. Because at the end of the day she knows it's a stupid pride thing instead of actual injustice or oppression.

I'm not a religious person, but I'm pretty sure most people who are would consider "You're not allowed to worship your god anymore" a pretty severe form of oppression. Now, I agree that staying with the empire and preparing for the next round against the Thalmor would probably be the smart thing to do, but it's not like the rebellion is without cause (but yeah, pride obviously plays a part as well),

[Resileaf]

I'm not a religious person, but I'm pretty sure most people who are would consider "You're not allowed to worship your god anymore" a pretty severe form of oppression. Now, I agree that staying with the empire and preparing for the next round against the Thalmor would probably be the smart thing to do, but it's not like the rebellion is without cause (but yeah, pride obviously plays a part as well),

The Empire is forced to enforce that law because Ulfric is throwing a fit about it. Before the rebellion started and gave an excuse for the Thalmor to basically have a permanent presence in Skyrim, the Empire was content to just wag their fingers at people who worshipped Talos and pretend they didn't hear anything (unless it was really blatant). Tullius definitely doesn't care.

[Grim Portent]

The Empire is forced to enforce that law because Ulfric is throwing a fit about it. Before the rebellion started and gave an excuse for the Thalmor to basically have a permanent presence in Skyrim, the Empire was content to just wag their fingers at people who worshipped Talos and pretend they didn't hear anything (unless it was really blatant). Tullius definitely doesn't care.

The rebellion didn't happen until after the Thalmor had already been allowed into the Empire.

After the White Gold Concordat the Reachmen rebelled and siezed Markarth. Ulfric arrived with a volunteer army, made a deal with the Jarl of Markarth to make Talos worship permitted in the Reach in exchange for retaking Markarth for him. When the Empire sent the Legion to Markarth Ulfric refused them entry unless they also permitted Talos worship in the Reach, which they did agree to.

Then Thalmor found out that the Cult of Talos was openly practicing in Markarth, and the empire broke it's deal with Ulfric at the Aldmeri insistence, arrested Ulfric and allowed the Thalmor to send justicars in to watch things going forward. Ulfric gets out of jail, finds out his dad has died in the meanwhile, becomes Jarl of Windhelm and goes on to kill High King Torygg in a questionably legitimate duel as a protest against the Empire enforcing the ban on Talos worship and allowing the Thalmor to detain people. Then starts an open rebellion against the empire when they try to arrest him rather than just treating it as a regional succession matter.

The series of events is that the Thalmor presence caused* the Civil War, not the Civil War causing the Thalmor presence.

*Contributed to anyway.

[Keltest]

The rebellion didn't happen until after the Thalmor had already been allowed into the Empire.

After the White Gold Concordat the Reachmen rebelled and siezed Markarth. Ulfric arrived with a volunteer army, made a deal with the Jarl of Markarth to make Talos worship permitted in the Reach in exchange for retaking Markarth for him. When the Empire sent the Legion to Markarth Ulfric refused them entry unless they also permitted Talos worship in the Reach, which they did agree to.

Then Thalmor found out that the Cult of Talos was openly practicing in Markarth, and the empire broke it's deal with Ulfric at the Aldmeri insistence, arrested Ulfric and allowed the Thalmor to send justicars in to watch things going forward. Ulfric gets out of jail, finds out his dad has died in the meanwhile, becomes Jarl of Windhelm and goes on to kill High King Torygg in a questionably legitimate duel as a protest against the Empire enforcing the ban on Talos worship and allowing the Thalmor to detain people. Then starts an open rebellion against the empire when they try to arrest him rather than just treating it as a regional succession matter.

The series of events is that the Thalmor presence caused* the Civil War, not the Civil War causing the Thalmor presence.

*Contributed to anyway.

Depends on whether you count Ulfric's volunteer army as part of the Stormcloaks, or his insistence of Talos worship in the Reach as part of the rebellion. Different groups in the game go different ways, but very few people actually overtly deny that the crackdown came as a response to Ulfric making an issue about it. Most of the Stormcloaks either consider it a necessary provocation to defend their rights (which is the official line) or just dont talk about it.

[Grim Portent]

The crackdown on private worship happened after it, but the general idea seems to be that all formal worship of Talos was already banned. No temples, no warrior orders, no official priests, no state support for the previously established church.

For example, any Talos equivalent of the Vigilants of Stendarr would have been outlawed, as would the Knights of the Nine.

It wasn't exactly a situation where people who considered Talos their main god (which appears to be much more a Nord thing than an Imperial one, Imperials seem more Akatosh oriented*) could actually keep worshipping as they had before. I'm not one for faith or superstition myself, but I wouldn't consider someone praying in a cupboard or similar to be equivalent to a sermon in a church.


*Which can probably be traced back to the old Nordic pantheon being gradually taken over by the Imperial pantheon. The Nord's are very different from the ones from the time of Oblivion, but their faith is still centered around a god of men rather than the dragon god, they've just largely changed names and associations to the Imperial ones.

[Resileaf]

The intent of the Empire is nonetheless clear. "Give us time to catch our breath for a few years and then we'll beat back the Aldmeri Dominion for real."

Everything about the White-Gold Concordant involves the Empire accepting the terms of the treaty and only following them on paper and not in practice. Abandonning Hammerfell seems like a huge betrayal, but the Empire also proceeded to 'disband' every legion in Hammerfell at the time, allowing these completely unnaffiliated soldiers to continue helping the Redguards against the Thalmor. It's the same thing for the Talos worship ban. They let private worship happen and pretend they don't see it happen.

[veti]

The intent of the Empire is nonetheless clear. "Give us time to catch our breath for a few years and then we'll beat back the Aldmeri Dominion for real."

Everything about the White-Gold Concordant involves the Empire accepting the terms of the treaty and only following them on paper and not in practice. Abandonning Hammerfell seems like a huge betrayal, but the Empire also proceeded to 'disband' every legion in Hammerfell at the time, allowing these completely unnaffiliated soldiers to continue helping the Redguards against the Thalmor. It's the same thing for the Talos worship ban. They let private worship happen and pretend they don't see it happen.

That may be their intent, but where is the evidence that they have the first idea of how to go about it?

Hadvar claims "the Empire is keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim". I've travelled about Skyrim quite a bit, and I have to say that's not what it looks like to me. Looks more like "the Empire has given the Thalmor free run of Skyrim, and makes not the slightest effort to protect its citizens against persecution, kidnapping and summary murder by the Justiciars based on no evidence beyond - and I quote directly - 'I don't like you, I think you're a heretic.'"

First time I played Skyrim, my sympathies were with the Empire. After all, they'd done right by me in the previous games. But the more I play, the more convinced I become that Ulfric - while, undeniably, ambitious and repulsive - is also right. The Empire is dying, it needs to fall and let its provinces find their own feet.

It's the imperials who are kidding themselves. If you win the war for them, one of the last things Rikke says is "now maybe the Thalmor will back off" (not a direct quote, but that's the sentiment). Yeah... no, Rikke, no they won't. The only difference is that now there's nowhere to hide from them.

[Keltest]

That may be their intent, but where is the evidence that they have the first idea of how to go about it?

Hadvar claims "the Empire is keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim". I've travelled about Skyrim quite a bit, and I have to say that's not what it looks like to me. Looks more like "the Empire has given the Thalmor free run of Skyrim, and makes not the slightest effort to protect its citizens against persecution, kidnapping and summary murder by the Justiciars based on no evidence beyond - and I quote directly - 'I don't like you, I think you're a heretic.'"

First time I played Skyrim, my sympathies were with the Empire. After all, they'd done right by me in the previous games. But the more I play, the more convinced I become that Ulfric - while, undeniably, ambitious and repulsive - is also right. The Empire is dying, it needs to fall and let its provinces find their own feet.

It's the imperials who are kidding themselves. If you win the war for them, one of the last things Rikke says is "now maybe the Thalmor will back off" (not a direct quote, but that's the sentiment). Yeah... no, Rikke, no they won't. The only difference is that now there's nowhere to hide from them.

The plan worked great in Hammerfell, where the locals were actually facilitating it instead of actively resisting it.

[veti]

The plan worked great in Hammerfell, where the locals were actually facilitating it instead of actively resisting it.

If it was a plan, which is not something I've ever seen evidence for, it didn't really "work great" because the legacy in Hammerfell is of anger at the empire's abandonment, not gratitude for its "help".

And Skyrim is being asked to put up with far worse persecution than ever pertained in Hammerfell. If the empire wants to apply the Hammerfell "solution" again in Skyrim, what's stopping it? I'm pretty sure Ulfric would be all for it.

[Keltest]

If it was a plan, which is not something I've ever seen evidence for, it didn't really "work great" because the legacy in Hammerfell is of anger at the empire's abandonment, not gratitude for its "help".

And Skyrim is being asked to put up with far worse persecution than ever pertained in Hammerfell. If the empire wants to apply the Hammerfell "solution" again in Skyrim, what's stopping it? I'm pretty sure Ulfric would be all for it.

Skyrim wasnt asked to put up with ANY persecution until they started openly rabble rousing about the White Gold Concordant. Thats the point. The Nords were allowed to self police without any oversight as long as they werent openly proclaiming their defiance to the sky. Guess what they ended up doing.

[Lord Raziere]

Skyrim wasnt asked to put up with ANY persecution until they started openly rabble rousing about the White Gold Concordant. Thats the point. The Nords were allowed to self police without any oversight as long as they werent openly proclaiming their defiance to the sky. Guess what they ended up doing.

TBH, I'd still totally blame the Thalmor. anyone with a knowledge of history would know what would happen and that Skyrim would openly declare defiance sooner or later no matter what was done. the Thalmor knew what it was doing when it started suppressing an important religious figure and knew they wouldn't have to do any more manipulation as long as they got that term in, it would cause a rift in humanity no matter what.