The best of TWF

[Rad]

Hi; I'm in a really non-optimized group (all meleers, for one) and one of the players asked me for help in making his TWF Ranger effective. He pretty much wants a two weapon fighter more than being married to the ranger theme and I was trying to let him do his thing without (a) recur to 1/day or similar abilities (Dervish, Travel Devotion,...) or (b) introduce complications to the game mechanics (maneuvers) which he still has to get familiar with.

Actually, this bans pretty much everything I can think of so I'm looking for new ideas... any fellow playgrounders has some? The character now has 2 levels in Ranger (not retrainable), human and his feats may be reassigned if needed. Str is 18, Dex is 15 and Int is 13 (not changeable).

Thank you all!

[Shishnarfne]

The real trick for a TWF to have much combat ability (even non-optimized) is a) have a source of bonus damage and b) have a way of getting off full attacks. A one level dip in Lion Totem barbarian (Complete Champion) grants pounce and is probably a relatively popular way of getting full attacks. Of course, several psionic powers (hustle, Psionic Lion's Charge) can be used similarly, but that might fall into the "unwanted new mechanics" category for your player. (The advantage of the Dervish dance is that you can move and still make a full attack).

For bonus damage, Favored enemy isn't a terrible source (if you know what you'll face), but Sneak Attack is the official approved means of getting the most dice. If you can get flanking in battle, each attack will have sneak attack dice, so while it takes a fair bit of cooperation and tactical movement to get full attacks with flanking, this probably will get some of the best damage. A level in rogue (or three) probably won't impact the overall build too much, and will add a bit more punch to this character idea.

If that's too much effort for your player, he can consider adding +1d6 bonuses to his weapons as soon as he can afford them. TWF lives (and fails) based on two principles: getting full attacks as often as possible, and adding as much damage to each attack as possible. With power attack off the menu (typically), this leaves sneak attack, favored enemy, weapon specialization (which is better for TWF than other styles, though not beautiful), and weapon enchantments for damage.

[OneWinged4ngel]

but Sneak Attack is the official approved means of getting the most dice.

Sneak Attack "official" best? What makes that "official"? The fact that it's your opinion? Man. That statement makes my favorite TWF build cry

Before anyone asks, said build is actually a bard / ToB build that gives about +12d6 energy damage to everyone's attacks as a swift action bardic music with Dragonfire Inspiration / Song of the White Raven, as well as 9th level maneuvers, and the bardic TWF goodies. Can sing, charge, and dish out hundreds of damage with two blades ringin'. Comes complete with Raging Mongoose barrage of attacks. And by the way, that +12d6 energy damage generally beats sneak attack, especially since it effects EVERYONE in the party. Sure, it takes an action to start singin' (either swift with SotWR or standard), but it takes setup to enable SA, and SA has more enemies immune or resistant to it than all that energy damage (especially if you made it Sonic).

72d6 > 24d6. *Shrug*

[HOO]

Another way is to dip into Scout with the Riposte Variant class feature. It replaces the skirmish and allows the scout to deal extra damage against those who attack him (not hit, only attack, the result of the attack rolls seems irrelevant).
I recommended it to the Ranger player in my group (I'm the DM). And I also allowed him to use Swift Hunter (that feats from Compl. Scoundrel, that allows ranger and scout levels to stack for skirmish damage calculation). So far I haven't regret it. And he didn't either.

And don't forget that Lion's Charge Spell is a 2nd level Ranger Spell.

I also suggest to check out ToB's Tiger Claw maneuvers that enhance your TWF capabilities.

[RTGoodman]

The Tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer gives a minor AC bonus while TWF, lessens TWF penalties, and allows for TWF Spring Attacks. It's pretty decent (in my opinion). Of course, if I were making a TWF, I'd go something like Swashbuckler 3/Fighter X/Dervish X/Tempest 5 (not sure right off hand if Dervish is 5 or 10 levels).

[Grynning]

If you're going Dervish it's best to take levels in Scout, Skirmish synergizes way too well with Dervish Dance and 1000 cuts at Dervish 10.
Regarding your friends request for help - I would suggest taking a few levels of Scout, which is similar enough to the ranger as to not ruin his theme (unlike OWA's bard TWF build that he brings up every thread). Then take the Dual strike feat from CAdv, which lets you hit once with each weapon as a standard action, then take Two-Weapon Rend from PHBII (which takes no action, just gives you an extra attack if you hit once with each weapon), and go with Spring attack. This gives you decent damage against one target each round with Skirmish dice on two hits and +1 1/2 strength on a free hit. Then if he wants to, he can go into tempest (which isn't a bad 5-lvl class but is pretty feat intensive to qualify for - you would have to dip the 2 levels in Fighter).

Edit: Swift Hunter is a needed feat for the scout/ranger build. Also, under no circumstances should you waste feats on two-weapon defense or it's improvements. If he wants more AC, get a buckler and take improved buckler defense from Cwar.

[OneWinged4ngel]

unlike OWA's bard TWF build that he brings up every thread

Uhhm, I think I've only brought it up in threads saying the bard sucks at everything. Regardless, I wasn't suggesting it as an answer to the OP (as it obviously doesn't fit with the Ranger), but rather as a counter to the silly idea that Sneak Attack is the "official best method."

I'd give more advice on the ranger, but quite frankly Ranger is the class I have by far the LEAST experience with. And I don't believe in giving advice when I don't know what I'm talking about.

[AslanCross]

72d6 > 24d6. *Shrug*

...May I see this build? Being a lover of TWF despite its suckiness, I am interested.

[OneWinged4ngel]

...May I see this build? Being a lover of TWF despite its suckiness, I am interested.

Bard4/Warblade or Crusader 16. The necessary feats are Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven, the usual inspire boosters (Song of the Heart, Words of Creation), and TWF feats. There's also goodies like Snowflake Wardance and the like to be had.

Also, the thing with TWF isn't so much that it's "just bad" as that it is feat intensive and doesn't get good until you can secure a source of substantial bonus damage (that goes with each attack, thus benefitting from extra attacks), thus making the doubling feature of TWFing worth all those penalties and investments. This means that TWF is generally fairly lame until mid or high level when it can really take off, and you pretty much have to build around it. Whereas, for 2HW, you just need to pick up a greatsword and maybe Power Attack and you're AOK.

[Grynning]

To further expand on the Ranger/Scout Spring attack thing, this is something like what you should shoot for. Levels can be taken in pretty much any order with this build, but it's best to get to Ranger 6 as quickly as possible for Imp. TWF, which is the pre-req for almost everything else and if you don't get it as a Ranger it's harder to qualify for (17 Dex and BAB +6). I don't have Complete Scoundrel on me at the moment so I can't remember when you can take Swift Hunter. Also, you could stick level one of Lion Totem Barbarian in here if you wanted to, for the pounce ability, more HP, etc.

1st (Rng) - Feats: Track (B), Dodge, Improved Initiative
2nd (Rng) - Two-weapon Fighting (B)
3rd (Rng) - Mobility, Endurance(B)
4th (Rng), 5th (Rng)
6th (Rng) - Imp. TWF (B), Dual Strike (This may not work with spring attack, as it technically says "standard action" and not "attack action", but if your DM is nice it will make this build work sooner. If they say no, then this won't work until you get 5 levels in tempest, and you should take a different feat instead of Dual Strike).
7th (Scout), 8th (Sct)
9th (Scout) - Swift Hunter (this will make damage go way up at this level)
10th (Scout) - Spring Attack(B)

After this, you should start taking levels in Tempest for better BAB and two-weapon Spring attack at level 5. As soon as you hit BAB 11, your next feat should be Two-Weapon Rend.

Edit: As with most of my builds, this is not supposed to be Uber optimized, just usable by someone wanting to stick to their theme. I know it doesn't OMGPWNZOR.

[Temp]

Maybe allow one of the Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter feats to use the Riposte Scout instead of the standard skillmonkey class?



[Edit:] Wow. Overlooked HOO's post.

[Shishnarfne]

Sorry, by "official" I meant the simplest way thrown around on this forum. As the OP specifically said he wasn't looking at ToB (and as I don't have it and don't know it well enough), I didn't consider it.

So, to clarify, Sneak Attack is the way using the least number of new rules and books to get bonus dice to TWF. I also figure SA at more than 24d6 for TWF by 20... but I'll defer to the White Raven build for total damage potential.

Edit: Regarding Scout + Dual Strike: I regard TWF a requiring full attacks to do its best, so this seems slightly counterproductive. Now, adding Scout to Dervish Dance makes the ability to move and full attack that much juicier, so I don't see how adding Dual Strike or Spring Attack is needed for this.

[Grynning]

That is quite nice...thanks Temp, hadn't seen that before.
Riposte Scout eliminates the need for the spring attack progression and tempest levels, in that case I would put more levels in ranger to get to level 3 spells. Bladestorm (from CAdv. and SpC) is awesome

@Shishnarfne: The OP said the guy didn't want to go dervish, so I was looking for a viable build that didn't.

[Jack Zander]

I'd say sneak attack is a pretty official method. I don't know how you can say all that bard cheese is official when no one else has heard of it and it requires 5 splat books to pull off (or whatever you used). As far as what's standard, sneak attack is the official method to gain bonus damage with two weapon fighting.

[Temp]

I'd say sneak attack is a pretty official method. I don't know how you can say all that bard cheese is official when no one else has heard of it and it requires 5 splat books to pull off (or whatever you used). As far as what's standard, sneak attack is the official method to gain bonus damage with two weapon fighting.

When did using books become illegal? And why is Sneak Attack so "officially" the method that the statement merits repetition?

[Jack Zander]

As stated, it's standard. If no one has heard of it, it's not illegal, but it's not standard or official by any means. It's the most common way of using TWF to its potential, therefore I'd say it's safe to assume its pretty official. And it is the most likely method to be brought up during forum conversation.

[Stam]

Insightful Strike.

[Temp]

Insightful Strike's a nice base, but it doesn't scale well without additional boosts. Usually it's not worth the three-level investment... three levels in a Sneak Attack/ToB/Duskblade/Dragonfire Inspiration class will usually go to better end results (Daring Outlaw provides a singular exception to this and in that case, it's the Sneak Attack providing most of the damage).

As stated, it's standard. If no one has heard of it, it's not illegal, but it's not standard or official by any means. It's the most common way of using TWF to its potential, therefore I'd say it's safe to assume its pretty official. And it is the most likely method to be brought up during forum conversation.

It was just the word "Official" that got me. Standard? Sure. But the closest thing to an "Official" TWF damage source is Favored Enemy.

[Rad]

Thanks to everybdy for the many ideas; A swift hunter build was probably the best thing on the table but I'm also interested in the bard build (not for this character, but still interesting).
What's the deal with Spring Attack? I'm missing how it is so useful with TWF since it allows only one attack and you have to close in with the enemy again next turn... is there something I'm unaware of?
I'm AFB now, but I seem to recall that Dual Strike does not allow to double precision damage, so I pretty much discarded it. Is there a "Greater Manyshot" equivalent of it?
Tempest is cool, but has heavy requirements (again, don't see the usefulness of Spring Attack for TWF) and gets in the way of bonus damage. The vanilla Ranger/Scout with swift hunter and improved skirmish might turn up to be better.

Are there any PrC with fast progression dor skirmish damage that do not involve spellcasting (like the feature of Unseen Seer or Dragon Devotee)

Thank you again

[RMS Oceanic]

You are right: Dual Strike only allows one application of precision damage, because you only make one attack roll for both weapons. Spring Attack works well with Scouts because it's the perfect way to activate their Skirmish. The reason Tempest is good is that at 5th level, you can TWF spring attack, make two attacks on a spring attack, and as far as I know, precision damage is applied to both. The main downside to Tempest is you don't gain anything out of it's shared feats ability: at 3rd level, if you have weapon focus/specialization/improved critical for one weapon you're holding, the benefits are applied to the second.

[sun_tzu]

The Tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer gives a minor AC bonus while TWF, lessens TWF penalties, and allows for TWF Spring Attacks. It's pretty decent (in my opinion). Of course, if I were making a TWF, I'd go something like Swashbuckler 3/Fighter X/Dervish X/Tempest 5 (not sure right off hand if Dervish is 5 or 10 levels).

I think you're referring to the "Steel Tempest".

[Epic_Wizard]

You said you didn't want to introduce maneuvers to the game just yet. I might suggest that you start adding them one at a time beginning with Tumble which allows your scout to basically switch which side of an enemy he is attacking, get his attack and defense bonuses, and potentially set up flanking for someone else not to mention the most important factor of potentially avoiding those pesky AoO's.

The bard build sounds interesting.

My favorite though is still a 20th level Thri-Keen ranger that I rolled up for a fun one off session. Basically no penalty to 12 attacks at his lowest bonus and one set of attacks with the normal BAB set. Plus the Githkas he was useing had the ends enchanted with a different damage type. I know this isn't hugely effective but I just love the idea of him jumping twice his movement to land in front of someone and proceed to attack faster than the eye can see.

I believe that Rangers have a couple of spells that increase the damage of their weapons and/or add a damage type to them. Also Entangling Roots would be a good idea if he goes with the Scout idea since it restricts his opponent's movements without affecting his movement.

[cupkeyk]

Take a level in UA Simple Barbarian(get another favored enemy instead of rage) with the Lion Totem Pounce Ability from Complete Champion. Then get a two handed weapon and armor spikes. The two handed weapon is preferably a great axe. Get axe spike from races of stone. nets you a second armor spike attack at -5.

1. Barb1 (Weapon Focus: Armor Spike)
2. Ranger1 Track
3. ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting(free), Axespike

at level three you will have One attack with your axe and two attacks with your armor spikes at -2, -2, -7.

Half orc would be optimal so you can have barb as your preferred multiclass and even out scout and ranger with the riposte variant from the cityscape web enhancement.

[Awetugiw]

I used a pretty decent TWF-ranger with the Lion's Charge spell and the Wounding weapon ability a couple of weeks ago. It's probably not the most optimized strategy, but anything that makes others say "You deal HOW much con damage?" is pretty nice once in a while.

It doesn't work well against a lot of enemy types though, so it is probably best used in the way I used it - against the PC's.

[Darrin]

Take a level in UA Simple Barbarian(get another favored enemy instead of rage) with the Lion Totem Pounce Ability from Complete Champion. Then get a two handed weapon and armor spikes. The two handed weapon is preferably a great axe. Get axe spike from races of stone. nets you a second armor spike attack at -5.

1. Barb1 (Weapon Focus: Armor Spike)
2. Ranger1 Track
3. ranger2 Two Weapon Fighting(free), Axespike

at level three you will have One attack with your axe and two attacks with your armor spikes at -2, -2, -7.

Take the Travel Devotion at level 1 and you can skip the barbarian level. Swift action to move up to your speed + full attack for 10 rounds.

Although if you do keep the barbarian, take the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA to get another attack.

[Rad]

Unfortunately Travel Devotion can only be used 1/day. Since we go through kick-the-door dungeons a lot and have no casters that's not going to work that well unless I can get turn undead somehow (other than taking 1 level in cleric). This is the same reason that had me exclude the Dervish from the picture and then, since now I'm out of ways to do the move+full attack thing, I guess I'll have to rethink the whole skirmish thing over
please, keep going

[OneWinged4ngel]

I also figure SA at more than 24d6 for TWF by 20...

You're right, it should be a lot more than that. The point was that bardic music will do about the same *per attack* for you, and *ALSO* add to your allies, thus multiplying the output. Oh, and it works on those darned undead, constructs, oozes, humanoids with fortification, etc too.

[SadisticFishing]

Human? Icky. My build involves Wildrunner and Champion of Corellan Larethian.

Ranger is actually a fairly crappy way of going for TWF, as there's no source of bonus damage - you'd need to mix it with something.

Possibly Scout?

Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dervish 10, not in that order. Makes sense to me.

[cupkeyk]

Unfortunately Travel Devotion can only be used 1/day. Since we go through kick-the-door dungeons a lot and have no casters that's not going to work that well unless I can get turn undead somehow (other than taking 1 level in cleric). This is the same reason that had me exclude the Dervish from the picture and then, since now I'm out of ways to do the move+full attack thing, I guess I'll have to rethink the whole skirmish thing over
please, keep going

Interesting. This makes a four level dip in Paladin worthwhile. You can now use the Travel Devotion more times a day. The build will be a mess. Barbarian1, Ranger11, Paladin 4, Scout 5... The Half Orc must then take Diverse background(Ranger) at level one to avoid multiclass penalties...

Travel Devotion is awesome because you can make a Leap Attack/Shocktrooper Pounce Barbarian and move away after pouncing on them.

Charge>Full Attack>Run Away!

[BardicDuelist]

Another way is to dip into Scout with the Riposte Variant class feature. It replaces the skirmish and allows the scout to deal extra damage against those who attack him (not hit, only attack, the result of the attack rolls seems irrelevant).
I recommended it to the Ranger player in my group (I'm the DM). And I also allowed him to use Swift Hunter (that feats from Compl. Scoundrel, that allows ranger and scout levels to stack for skirmish damage calculation). So far I haven't regret it. And he didn't either.

And don't forget that Lion's Charge Spell is a 2nd level Ranger Spell.

I also suggest to check out ToB's Tiger Claw maneuvers that enhance your TWF capabilities.

You read my mind. If defensive (accomplished with CExpertise), this can actually make a cool TWF concept flavor wise. Not necessairly the most optimal, but useful and fun.