The Suicide Squad

[Aedilred]

That's because the latter was actually the movie's premise.

There's a giant zombifying starfish kaiju and Amanda Waller and the attitude to US foreign policy she represents is still supposed to be the biggest monster in the movie.

That's fine, but given what I had understood to be the purported premise, it would be nice if that were something that was a slow realisation or twist of sorts rather than being glaringly obvious from very early on.

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

[Ramza00]

That's fine, but given what I had understood to be the purported premise, it would be nice if that were something that was a slow realisation or twist of sorts rather than being glaringly obvious from very early on.

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

There are lots of differences I am not going to talk about in more detail due to rules of this board about politics and real world history. If you want an idea Graphic Policy Radio just did a good podcast episode on said subject.

[Precure]

Really, on the hero-villain/morality scale, and putting Peacemaker aside, is there any daylight between this incarnation of the Suicide Squad and the Guardians of the Galaxy? Especially the Guardians in their first movie?

Well, guardians were also criminals and arrested for it, but the authority figures in that movie (Xandar and Nova corps) were good aligned.

[Aedilred]

There are lots of differences I am not going to talk about in more detail due to rules of this board about politics and real world history. If you want an idea Graphic Policy Radio just did a good podcast episode on said subject.

Alas, I'm essentially allergic to podcasts, but oh well.

Well, guardians were also criminals and arrested for it, but the authority figures in that movie (Xandar and Nova corps) were good aligned.

But the Kyln authorities weren't - and that's where Nova sent them...

Spoiler: Various Guardians spoilers

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Of the Guardians, Rocket and Quill are mercenaries, bounty hunters, thieves. They're not particularly malevolent but don't have much of a conscience about hurting people or stealing from even close friends; Rocket has a notable sadistic streak. The first Groot's motivations aren't clear but he is, at best, Rocket's accessory. The second Groot has probably committed fewer crimes because he only joined up with Rocket after the heel-face turn, but has been shown to be wantonly violent and display no compunction about killing or mutilation.

Gamora is a mass murderer/war criminal who is attempting to make amends in some way or other. It's not entirely clear what it was that landed Drax in the Kyln but a history of extreme violence seems a safe bet. Of the later additions to the team, Nebula has done everything Gamora has but (pre-Infinity War) even once switching sides is primarily motivated by revenge rather than atonement. Yondu is no less morally chequered than Quill, with the addition of child trafficking, and it's safe to scale up the number of crimes committed. Mantis is probably the most blameless of the team (apart from Baby Groot) but she still colluded with Ego's slaughter of his children for a long time, even under sufferance.

They are, in short, fairly classic antiheroes: they're heroes because they do heroic things like save the galaxy/universe but their methods, motives, and characters in general are decidedly shady. They display the virtue of loyalty to each other but friendship isn't a heroic trait in and of itself, and while they tend to do the right thing in the end, there is usually a self-serving element to it.

Pan across to the Suicide Squad. From what we see in the movie, Bloodsport is a mercenary who has performed some shady jobs in the past, but has also seemingly served with honour in the military. His killing contest with Peacemaker was callous, but (considering he had specifically been told that these were bad guys) no more so than Yondu and Rocket's rampage in Guardians 2.

Nanaue appears to have significantly less self-awareness and agency than Groot. It's not clear what crimes Ratcatcher and PDM have committed but it's hard to believe that she was much more than a thief, and that any crimes he committed were anything other than accidental.

The more I look at it the more the majority of the Squad look considerably less villainous and more sympathetic, at least in terms of history and motivation, than the Guardians.

[Fyraltari]

It's not clear what crimes Ratcatcher [has] committed.

She states it at one point: armed robberry. The "arm" was her rats. Given that Waller threatens Bloodsport with manipulating the justice system to get his daughter detained in Belle Reve on exaggerated charges, it's fair to assume this is what happened to Ratcatcher.

[BRC]

The more I look at it the more the majority of the Squad look considerably less villainous and more sympathetic, at least in terms of history and motivation, than the Guardians.

I mean, part of it is that we're introduced to these character as Victims. We don't get to know them as free people making bad decisions, and in doing so finding themselves in Waller's crosshairs. We meet them in prison, with bombs in their heads, forced to do Waller's bidding.

We're informed that they're Villains, but their villainy isn't onscreen. It's barely even described, it's just part of the premise that the Suicide Squad is made up of supervillains.

It would probably be different if we'd had a couple years of Comic Books showing Bloodsport fighting Superman by putting kryptonite bomb vests on random civillians and throwing them off skyscrapers so he could shoot Superman when he flew by to catch them.

[Precure]

Something I found funny about not exactly for this movie but Suicide Squad idea itself:

The deformed mutants and odd-ball psychotics will have their place in my Legions of Terror. However before I send them out on important covert missions that require tact and subtlety, I will first see if there is anyone else equally qualified who would attract less attention.

[Psyren]

I know nothing about John Cena or memes. My thoughts on the matter are based solely on the character I saw in the movie, who was a pretty thoroughly unlikable person, probably the only member of the team who didn't have any redeeming qualities. And the last thing we saw him doing certainly didn't do him any favors there. And honestly, I don't even agree about him being particularly funny in the film - the only quote you gave that I got something of a laugh out of what "Unless what they're showing off...", and I wouldn't think of that as one of the funnier moments in the film personally (most of those were Harley's, IMO). Though like I said, the humor in the film on the whole was rather hit or miss with me.

You'll just have to trust me then. And if the end credits scene is any indication, the filmmakers are more in alignment with my viewpoint.

Agreed on the former (Wonder Woman and Shazam are a tie for first for me), though I'm not so sure I'd say DC isn't floundering just yet. I mean, I guess having more decent films than not if we look only at their post-Justice League ones is an improvement from before, but it's still mostly Shazam raising their batting average in that group. Suicide Squad's good-ish, and Aquaman is decent; but then you've also got Wonder Woman 1984, which I found disappointing and plenty of others have far harsher words for, and Birds of Prey, which I did not see but have not heard many positive things about, and unless I'm misinformed fared poorly financially. I mean, compared to pre-Justice League, where Wonder Woman is basically the only film that wasn't, at a minimum, controversial, that's a definite improvement, but that's also a low bar to meet.

Yeah I think they're on an upward trajectory all things considered. It'll be interesting if and when they rope in RDJ for something.

With that said they still don't really have anything in the way of direction. My guess is that sometime after Flashpoint, they'll kick off Elseworlds so that they have their own idea lab similar to What If, and use that to figure out what people want. I'm still firmly in the camp that their heroes just aren't as grounded/relatable and therefore they have more of an uphill battle.

[Zevox]

With that said they still don't really have anything in the way of direction. My guess is that sometime after Flashpoint, they'll kick off Elseworlds so that they have their own idea lab similar to What If, and use that to figure out what people want. I'm still firmly in the camp that their heroes just aren't as grounded/relatable and therefore they have more of an uphill battle.

Have they announced that they're doing a Flashpoint film? *googles a bit* ...huh, so when the Flash gets a film, it'll be loosely inspired by that. Okay, maybe an odd choice, considering what (admittedly little) I know of how that went over in the comics, but oh well, I can't argue that they could do with rebooting their attempts at a film franchise at this point if that's where they go with that. And I don't know about the Elseworlds/What If thing, I haven't been watching the Marvel Netflix series to know what you're talking about there.

On that last though, I don't think that's really the issue. I don't know that there's any way to boil down what they're doing wrong to an one or even handful of things, personally, but I will say that I wish they'd ditch the desire to have a much darker tone to their films than Marvel does. Or at least confine that to particular films where it makes more sense, like Suicide Squad. Because even their non-Snyder films tend to have some of that creep into them, like some of the villain's actions in Shazam, which is otherwise one of their more upbeat films.

[Psyren]

Yeah, Flashpoint was originally going to be used as a reboot. But given Loki's popularity, I have no doubt DC is going to take the opportunity to use it and lean into multiverse shenanigans of their own. (We're kind of already there given that The Suicide Squad follows from the original while also referencing events we haven't seen anywhere, like Bloodsport putting Superman in the hospital.)

As for the tone - it's kind of ironic because, aside from leaning into the gore and some black comedy stuff like Polka Dot Man's mom, The Suicide Squad isn't dark at all and critics and audiences alike appear to love it. But The Batman meanwhile looks dark as all get-out, so they just can't seem to help themselves.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Aedilred

Spoiler

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Mantis is probably the most blameless of the team (apart from Baby Groot) but she still colluded with Ego's slaughter of his children for a long time, even under sufferance.

Spoiler: Mantis

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I think this is a bit severe. There was absolutely nothing Mantis could have done to save Ego’s offspring, apart from warning them. Ego kept her alive and captive simply to deal with the side effects of his humanoid form; she had no choice in the matter and certainly can’t be blamed for anything Ego did.

[Aedilred]

Spoiler: Mantis

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I think this is a bit severe. There was absolutely nothing Mantis could have done to save Ego’s offspring, apart from warning them. Ego kept her alive and captive simply to deal with the side effects of his humanoid form; she had no choice in the matter and certainly can’t be blamed for anything Ego did.

Spoiler

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I don't hold it against her too much, but at some point I think she has to bear some responsibility for her role in the previous murders. She might not have had any power to stop the killings but she could have refused to cooperate, or warned the victims. Continuing to act as a cog in a machine you know is evil isn't great, even if you're not the one pulling the levers. I guess the defence is that she was basically a slave and that refusing to cooperate might well have come at the cost of her own life, which has some weight, but it's still not entirely satisfactory. It's not exactly a "just following orders" deal but it's in the same ballpark.

We could take the view that she was waiting until someone came along who was powerful enough to stop Ego, and that would shed another light on things, but there isn't really an indication that this was her motivation for telling Drax. What enabled the Guardians to defeat Ego was Peter's ability to harness Ego's energy, and the near-simultaneous arrival of Rocket and the Ravagers with a vessel capable of reaching Ego's core - and she wasn't aware of any of that when she chose to warn Drax. She seemed to tell him because she liked him, probably because he was the first person to engage with her in that way - which is heartwarming, but at the same time means that she was prepared on some level to risk everything by telling some random shmuck the truth despite lack of meaningful ability to stop it, but elected not to on any of the previous occasions.

I do think she's probably the most sympathetic and least blameworthy of the Guardians, but she did still spend an unspecified but reasonably lengthy period of time enabling an individual who was trying to destroy the universe and did murder a large number of his own children.

[millersd]

Didn't see a current thread for it, so here goes.

Overall an enjoyable movie. It relies more on humor than the first one, and the serious moments aren't as serious. It's a good popcorn film. King Shark and Rat Catcher 2 are probably the best two characters, but all of the squad interacts well for the most part.

Now for some more serious discussion.

Spoiler: Large number of squad members

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For those wondering about the huge number of squad members, about half are a "decoy" operation and get taken out in an ambush in the first 15 minutes. The actual Squad is 5 members (joined later by Flagg and Harley who survive the ambush).

Spoiler: Flagg and Harley

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Interestingly, Flagg and Harley are assigned to the decoy operation, which appears doomed from the start. Waller even refuses to let Flagg withdraw when they are obviously blown. While Waller wanting Harley dead isn't a surprise, she must really be ticked at Flagg since she's very willing to sacrifice him as well.

Spoiler: Bloodsport and Rat Catcher 2

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These two develop an obvious Father/Daughter relationship. The interaction between them is very heartwarming (esp. since Bloodsport appears to get over his fear of rats at the end).

Spoiler: Peacemaker

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Imagine someone who loves (or claims to love) America just as much as Captain America, but is the world's biggest phallus-head. That's Peacemaker. "I love peace. And I'll kill every man, woman, and child to get it". He's obviously going to become a bad guy at some point. Interesting that he's apparently getting his own series.

Again, overall a nice enjoyable popcorn movie. Not going to win any Oscars (other than technical ones), but certainly worth watching.

Yes, this is an enjoyable movie but to me, it can be a more interesting movie if the suspension would be more. overall I like it also.

[Psyren]

Spoiler

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I don't hold it against her too much, but at some point I think she has to bear some responsibility for her role in the previous murders. She might not have had any power to stop the killings but she could have refused to cooperate, or warned the victims. Continuing to act as a cog in a machine you know is evil isn't great, even if you're not the one pulling the levers. I guess the defence is that she was basically a slave and that refusing to cooperate might well have come at the cost of her own life, which has some weight, but it's still not entirely satisfactory. It's not exactly a "just following orders" deal but it's in the same ballpark.

We could take the view that she was waiting until someone came along who was powerful enough to stop Ego, and that would shed another light on things, but there isn't really an indication that this was her motivation for telling Drax. What enabled the Guardians to defeat Ego was Peter's ability to harness Ego's energy, and the near-simultaneous arrival of Rocket and the Ravagers with a vessel capable of reaching Ego's core - and she wasn't aware of any of that when she chose to warn Drax. She seemed to tell him because she liked him, probably because he was the first person to engage with her in that way - which is heartwarming, but at the same time means that she was prepared on some level to risk everything by telling some random shmuck the truth despite lack of meaningful ability to stop it, but elected not to on any of the previous occasions.

I do think she's probably the most sympathetic and least blameworthy of the Guardians, but she did still spend an unspecified but reasonably lengthy period of time enabling an individual who was trying to destroy the universe and did murder a large number of his own children.

I think it's a bit of a leap to assume that the Guardians are the first group she ever tried to warn in any way. We don't know much about Ego's other children, but we do know that none of them had any Celestial powers until Quill, so they would have stood no chance against him.

[PontificatusRex]

Just caught the film at my local art house/second run theater. I really enjoyed it, as did my 15 year old son. We went in knowing there would be an insane level of violence and gore up to live action Warner Brothers Cartoon levels of absurdity so it wasn't too jarring, though a bit of it did have me going "Really?"

I liked how they set the audience up in the decoy, giving us the idea that Savant was going to be a main POV character and then killing almost everyone. Let us know right away how brutal this was going to be - though I was very sorry to see Captain Boomerang go, he was my favorite from the actual comics.

I really like everyone from the main team - hard not to crush out on Ratcatcher. Loved the office rebellion. I really appreciated the low-key demonstrations of friendship between Flagg and Harley. Also Starro's last line - it was really just an innocent creature floating in space turned into a monster by humans in this iteration.

I really, really would love to see a Justice League/Suicide Squad film. Especially the inevitable "fight before they team up" part (though with so many of the Squad dead it wouldn't be quite as fun). I really dig the idea of the vastly overpowered League being matched by the shear crazy fierceness and brutality of the squad - like I imagined Garth Ennis's The Boys would be, before it turned out he was cheating and the Boys had superpowers as well.