Serini is a moron

[Elenian]

I sort of said this before, but I think it's worth reiterating: at some point, the alternative to talking (apparently) became attacking the Order. In person. While they are armed with save-or-die magic and legacy greatswords of green glowyness and such. This is a significant reason to talk. These are not prima facie equally attractive options!

[Peelee]

It's not like receiving a sending is just a caller ID saying "Bob's calling" it's Bob saying up to 25 words of whatever he wants to say. Given V's sendings, in this case it would be more like the caller ID was saying "Bob would like to talk to you about protecting the last polka dotted cat."

There is a reason to pick up, they're outright saying they want to protect the gate. She knows they could be potential allies, even if she doesn't want them physically anywhere near the gate. It would have been easier to just answer and send them on a wild goose chase made up quest to keep them busy while she handles Xykon. That is, if she actually has any sort of plan for Xykon beyond "hope he gets bored and gives up."

Sure, Bob is saying he wants to talk about protecting theast cat. Bob also killed two of them, one intentionally, and is directly working with Charlie, who also killed one intentionally. Bob can totally leave that message on the voicemail, and I can totally think he's full of ****.

Again, there is no reason to trust Bob when Bob has been incredibly bad for the cats. Bob saying, "just trust me" does nothing.

[RatElemental]

Sure, Bob is saying he wants to talk about protecting theast cat. Bob also killed two of them, one intentionally, and is directly working with Charlie, who also killed one intentionally. Bob can totally leave that message on the voicemail, and I can totally think he's full of ****.

Again, there is no reason to trust Bob when Bob has been incredibly bad for the cats. Bob saying, "just trust me" does nothing.

You can think Bob is blowing hot air all you want, but you can call him back and say you need him to go get the orange scepter of polkadot cat creation to replace the dead cats, because you have the last cat handled. Then Bob stops calling you and is probably off looking for the scepter that doesn't exist and you've got time to deal with Charlie and Alice.

[Peelee]

You can think Bob is blowing hot air all you want, but you can call him back and say you need him to go get the orange scepter of polkadot cat creation to replace the dead cats, because you have the last cat handled. Then Bob stops calling you and is probably off looking for the scepter that doesn't exist and you've got time to deal with Charlie and Alice.

Or I could just not talk to Bob because he's a genocidal cat killer and Im not obligated to talk to him.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bob's not here.

Seven quataloo's to get the ref

[Peelee]

Bob's not here.

What about Bob?

I did not get it.

[Hurkyl]

I also understand the argument that she thinks they are a danger to the gate. The thing I'm not grasping (and I don't see where you said it) is why merely talking to them crystalises any risk to the gate? What harm would talking to them do?

There is the whole issue of sabotaging Serini's ability to defeat them (which, as an aside, I honestly can't understand how anyone is convinced the effect is completely nonexistent).

But for the way you ask the question, the first response that actually springs to my mind is that it changes the nature of the gate defenses from the Order's point of view.

Currently, the gate defenses are a feature of the location; something to be preserved (don't go bumbling carelessly) or exploited for their own benefit (blow the teleport trap on an ambush). Knowing Serini is alive and hostile towards their involvement means the gate defenses are now viewed as something actively working against them: they are among the obstacles to be defeated in their quest to be involved.

[KorvinStarmast]

What about Bob?

I did not get it.

I got your ref. Mine was Cheech and Chong, 1971. Dave's not here

[Liquor Box]

Now Im not getting something. If you have two salient facts - namley, that she does not have reason to think they have any useful information, and that she thinks they are a danger to the Gate - then she doesn't need a reason to not talk to them. She needs a reason to talk to them. Why is she obligated to talk to them? Because, from what I can tell (and I may be mistaken), that now seems to be the only reasoning for her doing so. If she is not obligated to talk to them, then those two points point to very good reason to not talk to them.

While I agree she doesn't have reason to think that they have particular useful information, from Serini's perspective there is always the off-chance the have useful information (even about something as simple as Xykon's weaknesses). So there's not zero reason to talk to them. It's just that, without good reason to think that they do have good information, the reason to talk with them is much lower.

I think the missing link is how we get from her thinking they are a risk to the gate to this being a reason not to talk to them. I don't think it necessarily follows that you never talk to a person who has competing interests with yours, unless you stand to lose something by talking to them.

Is your concern the same as Ionathus, that even knowing she exists is a problem. Or do you see it like Ruck, that she hasn't thought of any particular risk, but kind of thinks there may be unforeseen risks from speaking to them?

[Peelee]

I think the missing link is how we get from her thinking they are a risk to the gate to this being a reason not to talk to them. I don't think it necessarily follows that you never talk to a person who has competing interests with yours, unless you stand to lose something by talking to them.

By not talking to them, she does not confirm that she is even I've and keeps the element of surprise in case she needs to deal with them. She stands to lose that by talking to them.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you arguing that Xykon has no reason not to live next to the Gate once he's used it to control the Snarl? Or are you saying that Serini would have to spend several months knocking out and memory-wiping adventurers during the time it would take Xykon to complete The Ritual?

I'm saying that whichever adventurers she is counting on to topple his rule eventually have a chance to themselves put the final Gate in danger through their conflict. She could of course devote the rest of her life to taking down anyone who might go after Xykon to protect the Gate from their conflict. It would certainly be amusing to watch her switch to defending the guy who wrecked her so thoroughly before. But even if she's perfectly successful at that, she's quite old and appears to be a spinster.

By not talking to them, she does not confirm that she is even I've and keeps the element of surprise in case she needs to deal with them. She stands to lose that by talking to them.

But realistically she still has that. Even if they somehow come to suspect that she isn't their ally (epic rogue can't Bluff? What?) they'd still have no idea she has a bunch of monsters at her beck and call, or what magic items she has at her disposal, etc.

[Peelee]

But realistically she still has that. Even if they somehow come to suspect that she isn't their ally (epic rogue can't Bluff? What?) they'd still have no idea she has a bunch of monsters at her beck and call, or what magic items she has at her disposal, etc.

And they would also now even know if she was a piece on the board, let alone one they would have to deal with. No matter how many advantages she has, not knowing if she's even alive is another one. And, yet again, she is not obligated to answer them. I have yet to hear any convincing reason that she should respond given what she knows about them. That she could is irrelevant to whether she would. Even if we say there is nothing to be lost, there is also, as far as she knows, nothing to be gained.

I do not believe the story will play out that Serini is just a stupid old fool who doesn't just give the Order their rightful information for no reason.

[danielxcutter]

Seriously, getting to know the basics about the Order can't take that many divinations, and given that Serini's quite obviously in the loop I doubt the info blackout would apply to her either.

[Peelee]

Seriously, getting to know the basics about the Order can't take that many divinations, and given that Serini's quite obviously in the loop I doubt the info blackout would apply to her either.

Again, the basics about the Order:

• Accidentally destroyed a Gate.
• Intentionally destroyed a Gate.
• Committed genocide.

I really don't think why you seem to consider that this should endear them to her. She would need to know a lot more than the basics to have any reason at all to think it would be a good idea to even talk to them, much less work with them. And yet I keep hearing the drum bang of "the basics".

Also, Durkon had to die to get the direct chat from the god he dedicated his life to in order to get anything. But Serini should just have 'em calling her up on the phone?

[georgie_leech]

Also, Durkon had to die to get the direct chat from the god he dedicated his life to in order to get anything. But Serini should just have 'em calling her up on the phone?

Specifically, the god that was just itching to have a conversation about this very subject so that he could give a divine mission. It stands to reason that Snarl-related conversations probably aren't allowed to be started by the gods, otherwise Thor propbably just would have sent a dream or something saying "Durkon, cast a commune, we really need to have a chat about that thing I know you already know about so that I can clue you in on relevant information."

[Yendor]

Again, the basics about the Order:

• Accidentally destroyed a Gate.
• Intentionally destroyed a Gate.
• Committed genocide.

And in the process, removed most of the defenses of the Gate.

[Forum Explorer]

"impending world-shattering doom" could easily be referring to the last Gate and the possibility of its control and/or destruction. Considering this comic happened before the major plot events of book 6-- which include the Godsmoot and Thor's revelations to Durkon, which are the two key critical pieces of information that would change Serini's calculus-- I'm going to say the Sending does not include that the Order has those two key pieces of information.



You've continued to assert this as stone-cold fact, and I don't think there's any reason to conclude this is definitely true. In fact, I'll even go with "Serini, as an epic Rogue in the setting, knows more about a successful ambush than either of us."



Given that the Order blew up the Gates and that's precisely why Serini wants them out of the picture, I'm not sure where this is going.



...Because she doesn't trust the Order and isn't trying to work with them, with sound reasoning and evidence. "Managing the Order so they never even enter a door," in that sense, means actually having the time to do so once they arrive, which she did not have.



Again, we're just circling back to "Serini should know things about the Order that we do, that she has no reason to know and no way of knowing." (And I don't consider the Order telling her "Hey, I know we blew those Gates but we're cool now and won't do it again, and we're also a lot more competent than we were then" as "knowing" that information. Same with not knowing how many levels the Order has gained in the last week or so or that Elan has grown into someone who can use his powers competently.)



OK, the last sentence I can see a reasoning for. But I don't think it's an outcome to worry about, for a couple of reasons:

From our perspective, and possibly Serini's, if the Order defeats her and is seriously drained from the fight, we could expect them to rest and regroup before attempting to take on Team Evil-- especially in the current scenario, where they know Team Evil's on a wild goose chase because of the teleport trap.

Pursuant to Serini's reasoning, it might be along the lines of "Well, they blew the Gates to avoid a fight (Girard's), when they started the fight at full strength (Soon's), and after they won the fight (Dorukan's), so I'm not really increasing the chances they blow the Gate by attacking."

I just don't think we know enough to know if Serini's planning was poor; it seems like a results-based analysis to say so. The near-success of the ambush combined with how much the Order has grown since Serini would have likely last had relevant information on them suggests to me it was a pretty good plan based on what she knew. I'm willing to withhold judgment until this plays out and we hear more from all parties involved.

Perhaps not. Mind you, it shows they've been sending Messages even quite late, and that the subject matter has been quite serious.

I'm stating that as a fact because the Order couldn't do anything about the method she did use to ambush them. Charming Elan was always going to work. Having that lure him away was always going to work. And the Order knew they were about to be ambushed chasing him, but they still walked into it, because they knew they needed to rescue him.

Or to put it another way, all the tricks used to ambush them have very little to do with epic level rogue and thus there isn't much they could do to protect themselves from it, just by knowing that Serini was around.


My original point was the Xykon couldn't stop the Order from blowing up the Gates, so who does she think she will be able to? Or to put it another way, if the Order was here to blow up the Gate, why does she think she can stop them when Xykon couldn't?


What? I get the first part of that sentence. But the whole reason she didn't have time to manage them is because she refused to talk to them. You don't need to be there in person to manage someone.


Not at all, you pointed out that her ambush almost succeeded and thus was a valid tactic. I was countering that it didn't succeed, and that it just as easily could have failed entirely.

Sure, she didn't know much about the Order. And before this comic 1244 I'd agree that it wasn't her fault with her lack of knowledge. But now her lack of knowledge is willful and thus her fault.


I'm doubting she knows that much about the specific details of all the Gates. But maybe she does. It's kinda up in the air how much Serini actually knows about what happens at each Gate.

But really the point boils down to 'she believes that the Order being in conflict near the Gate puts the Gate at risk, yet she is starting a fight with them near the Gate.'

[Liquor Box]

By not talking to them, she does not confirm that she is even I've and keeps the element of surprise in case she needs to deal with them. She stands to lose that by talking to them.

Yeah, I'm going to sit on the fence on this one for a bit.

I don't think she would lose much in terms of surprise just because they knew she existed and was not an ally (so long as she didn't inform them she was hostile and would attack). But on the other hand she wouldn't have known how much information she had to gain by talking to them.

[Ruck]

I got your ref. Mine was Cheech and Chong, 1971. Dave's not here

I got it, but it certainly could be confusing with a name besides Dave.

[Hurkyl]

On a Xykon victory not being so bad... what happened in the aftermath of the invasion of Azure City?

Team Evil hung around and built a nation, establishing trade and diplomatic relations with the neighbors, and did not yank on the fraying edges of reality.

Even if Serini were to just give Xykon the gate on a silver platter, what direct risks do Team Evil cause?

• They are too careless in their investigation of the gate and mess it up on accident
• They are nihilistic enough to be willing to release the snarl

Team Evil have proven responsible enough with Dorukan's gate and Soon's rift, and there actions outwardly contradict the second point. We know both, especially the second, are serious concerns, but we have an unusual knowledge set.

Is there any reason for Serini to think control of the gate actually can grant Team Evil any amount of power? She speaks hypothetically about him achieving world domination, but it's quite plausible that the details we don't know make it unreasonable to expect anything but Team Evil poking around with it for a few months or years before deciding they can't do anything with it and return to their seat of power. Heck, they even have motive to build a new gate.

---

That aside, I was also thinking about the issue of warding off the Sapphire Guard. It seems pretty unlikely she has any chance at persuading the paladins to leave things to her, nor has any chance at converting them to her way of thinking about keeping the gate safe. Tricking them is the only real option, I think. Outside of extermination, I suppose.

[danielxcutter]

Team Evil didn't do squat for peace relations; that was all Team TDO.

[Liquor Box]

Even if Serini were to just give Xykon the gate on a silver platter, what direct risks do Team Evil cause?

• They are too careless in their investigation of the gate and mess it up on accident
• They are nihilistic enough to be willing to release the snarl

• Xykon releases the Snarl and tries to control it with the ritual (what he actually plans to do) but the ritual doesn't give him control (which it wont) and the Snarl goes on to to destroy the world
• Redcloak tries to use the Snarl to blackmail the gods (what he actually plans to do) but the gods (being gods) don't fall for his bluss and Redcloak has to release the Snarl on to a plane so they take him seriously.
• The Gods are aware of what is going on, and don't want to be blackmailed by Redcloak or have Xykon release the Snarl, so destroy the world themselves (what many of them actually want to do).
• Xykon doesn't actually release the Snarl and nor does Redcloak, but periodically adventurers turn up seeking to topple Xykon (what serini has said she thinks will happen) - and on each occasion the conflict between the adventurers and Xykon poses at least as much risk to the gate as the conflict between the Order and Xykon would (probably more if they didn't now the threat of the gate.

Is there any reason for Serini to think control of the gate actually can grant Team Evil any amount of power? She speaks hypothetically about him achieving world domination, but it's quite plausible that the details we don't know make it unreasonable to expect anything but Team Evil poking around with it for a few months or years before deciding they can't do anything with it and return to their seat of power. Heck, they even have motive to build a new gate.

I think we kind of do know that Xykon can't achieve world domination. He is relying on using the ritual to control the Snarl after he releases it, but the ritual doesn't actually achieve control, Redcloak only tricked Xykon into thinking it did. He wouldn't achieve world domination, he would destroy the world if he carries out his plan. We have been talking about Xykon being in control, because that appears to be what Serini thinks will happen when Xykon inevitably gets control of the gate (well, inevitable unless the Order stop him).

[Hurkyl]

• Xykon releases the Snarl and tries to control it with the ritual (what he actually plans to do) but the ritual doesn't give him control (which it wont) and the Snarl goes on to to destroy the world
• Redcloak tries to use the Snarl to blackmail the gods (what he actually plans to do) but the gods (being gods) don't fall for his bluss and Redcloak has to release the Snarl on to a plane so they take him seriously.
• The Gods are aware of what is going on, and don't want to be blackmailed by Redcloak or have Xykon release the Snarl, so destroy the world themselves (what many of them actually want to do).
• Xykon doesn't actually release the Snarl and nor does Redcloak, but periodically adventurers turn up seeking to topple Xykon (what serini has said she thinks will happen) - and on each occasion the conflict between the adventurers and Xykon poses at least as much risk to the gate as the conflict between the Order and Xykon would (probably more if they didn't now the threat of the gate.

I think we kind of do know that Xykon can't achieve world domination. He is relying on using the ritual to control the Snarl after he releases it, but the ritual doesn't actually achieve control, Redcloak only tricked Xykon into thinking it did. He wouldn't achieve world domination, he would destroy the world if he carries out his plan.

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that all of this was exploring things from the point of view of someone in Serini's position, not the point of view of a near-omniscient reader.

We have been talking about Xykon being in control, because that appears to be what Serini thinks will happen when Xykon inevitably gets control of the gate (well, inevitable unless the Order stop him).

Debatable, but I guess it's already been debated.

[Liquor Box]

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that all of this was exploring things from the point of view of someone in Serini's position, not the point of view of a near-omniscient reader.

Ah ok.

Well she does know about the risk of future adventurers (unless she's not putting quite a simple two and two together).She says in 1229 that conflict is the risk and that she expects future adventurers to come and try and topple Xykon.

She doesn't say she knows that Xykon trying to use the Snarl to take over the world is high risk. But it is pretty foreseeable based on what she knows, so if she doesn't know it, it's an oversight by her.

I agree that the godsmoot situation is not something she'd know about though.

[Hurkyl]

Ah ok.

Well she does know about the risk of future adventurers (unless she's not putting quite a simple two and two together).She says in 1229 that conflict is the risk and that she expects future adventurers to come and try and topple Xykon.

She doesn't say she knows that Xykon trying to use the Snarl to take over the world is high risk. But it is pretty foreseeable based on what she knows, so if she doesn't know it, it's an oversight by her.

I agree that the godsmoot situation is not something she'd know about though.

Ack, I forgot to list the indirect threats their presence poses as I had planned.

The Sapphire Guard and OotS inserting themselves into the picture is a threat, of course. Aside from those, we have

• Some random adventurers having a beef with Xykon or Redcloak and coincidentally tracking them down while they're at the gate
• Some random adventurers having learned about the gates and coincidentally coming while Team Evil is still there
• Team Evil succeeding at extracting world-dominating power, thus inviting resistance

It was the third point which made me ponder the question of just how plausible it would be for Team Evil to get anything out of it. I know the Order of the Scribble had to deal with crackpot cults or something, but none accomplishing anything of note, methinks?

I could only conclude we've not been given any of the details that would let us judge the topic. Aside, of course, from the fact that one of the Gods is specifically guiding Team Evil.

[Ionathus]

But I do get the idea that she sees herself as a bit of a secret agent, operating from the shadows and pulling strings. Putting aside that, in my opinion, she is pulling strings that increase the risk to the gate, I can understand that she thinks people knowing about her presence might be a bad thing.

Yep, this is pretty much my position. I don't think her secrecy and ambushes have been optimal choices, but I also don't think they're obviously bad ones. Playing it safe and sticking to the shadows is what she's good at, so it makes sense that she'd lean into that.

I'm saying that whichever adventurers she is counting on to topple his rule eventually have a chance to themselves put the final Gate in danger through their conflict. She could of course devote the rest of her life to taking down anyone who might go after Xykon to protect the Gate from their conflict. It would certainly be amusing to watch her switch to defending the guy who wrecked her so thoroughly before. But even if she's perfectly successful at that, she's quite old and appears to be a spinster.

I don't know who you're arguing with here, but it's not me.

I've already established why I don't think that Xykon plans to live next to the Gate after he's completed the Ritual, and why Serini seems to think the same. I have given my reasons for this. Instead of refuting those reasons, you've continued to propose a humorously bad plan based on a position I never supported, to make your point. I like hyperbole as a rhetorical strategy as much as the next guy, but it has to match what your conversational partner is saying for it to be effective.

But realistically she still has that. Even if they somehow come to suspect that she isn't their ally (epic rogue can't Bluff? What?) they'd still have no idea she has a bunch of monsters at her beck and call, or what magic items she has at her disposal, etc.

Again, any risk is too much risk in her eyes, when she's dealing with the people who are responsible for taking the world's integrity from 80% to 20%. I'm not saying an epic rogue can't Bluff: she could probably Bluff until the cows come home and be totally fine. Just like she could probably let the Order attack Xykon on her terms and still not lose any of her own gate defenses. But neither of those probablys are a definitely, and that small margin of risk is an unacceptable amount for her when the stakes are so high.

Even if Serini were to just give Xykon the gate on a silver platter, what direct risks do Team Evil cause?

Thousands would die, millions would suffer, civilization as we know it would be fundamentally altered or, worst-case, be completely replaced. At least Class 1 and maybe Class 2 under Standard Definition, or an IK-Class Scenario for fellow SCPers. The world and its inhabitants would survive, but that's about as bright as it gets.

I don't think the comparison to Azure City's aftermath works here. Team Evil conquered a kingdom and then ruled that kingdom with an iron fist, more or less. Sure Redcloak set up trade partners and they kept the human citizens alive (because slaves are the cheapest labor possible), and they didn't yank on the rift's edges, but that's not a point to their credit. They exploited the opportunity to its fullest extent, and didn't take actively suicidal actions (tampering with the rift) because they needed an intact Gate for their full plans to be realized.

I think Xykon made it pretty clear with Azure City that the stakes are as high as they can be: if he has the opportunity to take something, he will take it. If Xykon got control of the Snarl (impossible, but not according to his or Serini's understanding) I have no doubt that he would rule the planet with an iron fist. He is bona fide pure evil megalomaniac, through and through. I don't see any reason for Serini to give him the Gate, nor do I see any indication that she wants to.

[georgie_leech]

Speaking of Rift edges, I'm really curious about what's happened to the existing Rifts at Dorukon's (former) dungeon or Lirian's Forest. They both started significantly larger than the one that fit into Soon's Sapphire, and they've been Gate-less for significantly longer.

[Dion]

The Order has already significantly weakened the final gate defenses. Serini made a tactical blunder not taking them out earlier.

Team Evil went into the dungeon looking for The Order. They didn’t find them.

Team Evil is going to put the missing pieces together and realize there’s more to the dungeons than they realized, and they’re going to spend some effort trying to figure it out.

And frankly, The Order left Team Evil some pretty big clues.

[Liquor Box]

The Order has already significantly weakened the final gate defenses. Serini made a tactical blunder not taking them out earlier.

Like she's taken them out now?

All she's done is weaken them (by removing the paladins), meaning they are less likely to succeed against Xykon and as far as she knows, more likely to resort to desperate measures like destroying the gate. If she'd taken her beating earlier it would've made no difference.

Hopefully the Order is able to extract the information about where the paladins are out of Serini, and undo the damage she's done. Maybe they'll even be able to, one way or another, make her tell them about the gate defences, so some good will have come from her attack on them.

[Squire Doodad]

Speaking of Rift edges, I'm really curious about what's happened to the existing Rifts at Dorukon's (former) dungeon or Lirian's Forest. They both started significantly larger than the one that fit into Soon's Sapphire, and they've been Gate-less for significantly longer.

It's not clear about Lirian's Gate, but Dorukan's Gate is buried under a giant mass of rock. I'm not sure how it works, but it hasn't been brought up. Maybe conservation of detail, just no time to go there, or maybe the sheer amount of rock makes it a non-issue unless someone excavates it. One side of the rift or the other is blocked up for sure.

Again, the basics about the Order:

• Accidentally destroyed a Gate.
• Intentionally destroyed a Gate.
• Committed genocide.

You know, when you put it like that, maybe Durkon should have been casting those Sendings