Team Mundane

[Anthrowhale]

Conventional wisdom states 'magic is necessary to handle standard game challenges'. As an optimization challenge, can we violate conventional wisdom with a totally nonmagical party capable of dealing with standard adventures over levels 1-20?

We are looking for 4 characters which can work together. These characters must have and use no magic, including no magic in their backstory. Using ideas from this thread, I think we have a mostly working approach. The only drawback I'm aware of in published adventures is the inability to engage in reliable planar travel. Are there others? Any ideas/thoughts about how to make this work better?

Each of them have shared abilities: high saves, a moderate AC (~30), Hide/Move Silently so the party can stealth, White Raven Tactics to enable other party members to act, Iron Heart Surge to remove conditions, Shadow Jaunt for tactical teleport, and the capacity to inflict significant (50+) damage through touch attacks. Each character also has special abilities that enhance the overall party.

The Hulk can fly with a light load of 8304 pounds (strength 42, large size, hauling back graft), able to carry the entire party. The Hulk is the party expert on the 'breaking' part of 'breaking and entering'. The Hulk is also a potent combatant. When winning initiative (as is likely) and gaining a surprise round (as is likely), the Hulk can pounce with the 'mighty swing' feature of War Hulk 4 to deal damage to all creatures in 3 adjacent hexes. The Hulk is also a source of Double Team[DC] enabling sneak attack for the party.

Spoiler: The Hulk

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Dragonborn[Wings] Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 3/Rogue(Lightbringer Penetrating Strike[EtCR], Poison Use[DotU]) 3/Fighter (Hit&Run[DotU])/Swordsage 2/Warblade 3/Warhulk 4/Barbarian(Whirling Frenzy) 1/Ranger 2

Initiative+13 (+4 Dex, +2 Hit&Run, +1 Swordsage +6 Marshal Aura)
HP 209 Immune to precision damage, flanking
Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60'
AC 31 (Natural Armor+8, Armor+7, Dexterity +4, Wisdom+3, Size-1)

Move 40/Swim 40/Fly 30

Reach 15'[30' with reach weapon]

Attack 30/25/20 Razor Sharp Blue Ice Poison Ring[DC] touch attack mighty swings
Damage: ~19.5 +34(sneak attack)+4(flat-footed) or ~19.5+27(sneak attack immune)+4(flat-footed)

Final abilities: Str 42/Dex 18/Con 20/Int 13/Wis 17/Cha 7

Skills: Hide 33/Move Silently 37/Concentration 30/Tumble 34

Feats:
1 Combat reflexes
3 Darkstalker
6 Craven
F1 Double Team
F2 Power Attack
9 Cleave
12 Close-quarters Fighting
15 Sculpt Self (Dragon #304)
18 Snowtiger Berserker

Saves: Fort 27/Refl 20/Will 19. Evasion and swift action concentration check counters from Diamond Mind[Bo9S]

The Scout is based off of the Mundane Melee Master build. It has 120' blindsight, 60' darkvision, and 60' tremorsense as well as a high spot/listen check so the party can be warned about opponents. In combat, the Scout provides a +18 boost to armor class via Allied Defense which is sufficient to shut off melee attacks from almost all sources. The Scout is also a source of Double Team and functions as a 'cleric' via the martial spirit stance.

Spoiler: The Scout

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Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 3/Rogue(Lightbringer Penetrating Strike[EtCR], Poison Use[DotU]) 3/Fighter (Hit&Run[DotU]) 2/Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 3/Swashbuckler 2/Barbarian(Whirling Frenzy) 1/Ranger 2

Initiative+13 (+4 Dex, +2 Hit&Run, +1 Swordsage +6 Marshal Aura)
HP 209 Immune to precision damage, flanking
Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60', Blindsight 120'
AC 37 (Natural Armor+14, Armor+7, Dexterity +4, Wisdom+3, Size-1)

Move 40/Swim 40

Reach 15'[30' with reach weapon]

Base Attack +18
Attack 30/25/20/15 Razor Sharp Blue Ice Poison Ring[DC] touch attack
Damage: ~15.5 +34(sneak attack)+4(flat-footed) or ~15.5+27(sneak attack immune)+4(flat-footed)

Final abilities: Str 34/Dex 18/Con 20/Int 13/Wis 17/Cha 7

Skills: Hide 33/Move Silently 37/Concentration 30/Spot 36/Listen 32

Feats:
1 Combat reflexes
3 Darkstalker
6 Craven
F1 Double Team
F2 Close-quarters Fighting
9 Sculpt Self
12 Combat Expertise
15 Improved Combat Expertise
18 Allied Defense

Saves: Fort 27/Refl 20/Will 19. Evasion and swift action concentration check counters from Diamond Mind[Bo9S]

The Jack is the face of the party with a specialization in Charisma, Diplomacy and Sense Motive. However, the Jack is also the person who can do anything through the Iaijutsu Master feat which allows Iaijutsu Focus to replace any other skill check once per day. This is extraordinarily useful in terms of covering the bases of rarely used skills like Forgery, Appraisal, Craft, Decipher Script, etc... Some of these require training to use, which is easily accomplished via investing one skill point. The Jack also takes a couple levels in Marshal for Motivate Dexterity which provides a boost to the many dexterity-based skills and initiative checks. Damage comes via Iaijutsu Master (the class) 5's Strike from the Void. The Jack is also a 'cleric' via the martial spirit stance.

Spoiler: The Jack

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Human Factotum 1/Barbarian(Whirling Frenzy, City Brawler) 2/Exoticist Fighter(Hit&Run) 2/Crusader 2/Marshal 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 2/Iaijutsu Master 5/Ranger 2

Initiative+17 (+2 Dex, +2 Hit&Run, +1 Swordsage, +6 Lightning Blade, +6 Marshal Aura)
HP 171 Immune to precision damage, flanking
Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60'
AC 28 (Natural Armor+8, Armor+7, Dexterity +2, Wisdom+1)

Move 40/Swim 40

Reach 5'[10' with reach weapon]

Base Attack +17
Attack 20/15/10/5 Feycraft Razor Sharp Blue Ice Poison Ring[DC] touch attack
Damage: ~3+70(Iaijutsu Focus+Strike from the Void+Hit&Run)

Final abilities: Str 11/Dex 14/Con 16/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 22

Skills: Hide 39/Move Silently 35/Concentration 28/Diplomacy 34/Iaijutsu Focus 31/Sense Motive 26/Truespeak 16/Tumble 22

Feats:
Human Iajutsu Master
1 Combat Expertise
B1 Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Improved Initiative
F1 WF(Katana)
F2 Quickdraw
6 Dodge
Marshal: Skill Focus(Diplomacy)
9 Mobility
12 Spring Attack
15 Sculpt Self
18 Close-quarters Fighting

Martial Art: Word Given Form (ToM)

Saves: Fort 27/Refl 17/Will 21. Swift action concentration check counters from Diamond Mind[Bo9S]

The Burglar has a high Dexterity with Open Lock/Disable Device/Search allowing entry into many forbidden places. The Burglar is also the archer of the group, using thrown weapons with the Weak Spot ability granted by Master Thrower 5 to provide reliable touch attacks at range. The chosen weapon here is the Talenta Boomerang which enables Boomerang Daze unless a 10+damage fortitude save is made. Given the quantity of damage, that save will not be made often, allowing the Burglar to daze lock nearly all opponents not immune to fortitude saves (i.e. undead and constructs). The Burglar also specializes in Spellcraft to use the 'identify a spell that's already in place'. For example, if an illusion is identified, it becomes possible to make a will save. The Burglar also is a source of Double Team.

Spoiler: The Burglar

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Halfling Rogue(Lightbringer, Ranged Sneak Attack, Thief's Luck) 3/Exoticist Fighter(Hit&Run) 2/Barbarian 1/Master Thrower(Defensive Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) 5/Factotum 1/Swordsage 2/Martial Monk 2/Warblade 2/Ranger 2

Initiative+16 (+7 Dex, +2 Hit&Run, +1 Swordsage, +6 Marshal Aura)
HP 158 Immune to precision damage, flanking
Darkvision 60', Tremorsense 60'
AC 35 (Natural Armor+8, Armor+7, Dexterity +7, Wisdom+2, Size+1)

Move 30/Swim 30

Reach 10'[20' with reach weapon]

Base Attack +16
Attack 25/20/15/10 Boomerang Touch attack
Damage: 2.5+37.5(sneak attack)+7(flat-footed) + up to 16 (Windup)

Final abilities: Str 12/Dex 24/Con 16/Int 14/Wis 14/Cha 9

Skills: Hide 38/Move Silently 38/Concentration 28/Open Lock 38/Disable Device 38/Search 38/Spellcraft 27

Feats
1 Darkstalker
3 Point Blank Shot
F1 EWP[Talenta Boomerang]
F1 Precise Shot
F2 WF[Talenta Boomerang]
6 Combat reflexes
MM1 Double Team
MM2 Windup (Dragon #304, power attack for thrown weapons)
MT1 Quickdraw
9 Boomerang Daze
MT4 Snatch Arrows
MT5 Improved Critical[Talenta Boomerang]
12 Craven
15 Sculpt Self
18 Close-quarters Fighting

Saves: Fort 25/Refl 29/Will 18. Improved Evasion and Swift action concentration check counters from Diamond Mind[Bo9S]

The amount of gear that wealth can buy is effectively infinite, so a lexicon of useful mundane items is very helpful. Troacctid's list is a useful starter from which we can narrow down quite a bit.

Spoiler: Useful ways to spend Wealth

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There are three categories of wealth here: feats via a special challenges, mundane items, and mundane grafts.

Spoiler: Feats

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These are minor but undeniably handy. Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Survivor's Luck (Court of Thieves), and Stealth or Tactile Trapsmith (Ironwyrm Vault) are all helpful. These are all in Complete Scoundrel.

Spoiler: Grafts

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There are two limiting factors on using grafts: there are new grafts which are limited to particular families (unacceptable) and old grafts which often have spell prerequisites. Filtering through this, the useful remaining grafts seem to be:
Antenna Graft (Illithid) // 60' tremorsense, yet another special sense
Hauling Back (Illithid) // x1.5 carry capacity, an alternative to bags of holding.
Goring Horn (Illithid) // 1d8 gore attack, Improved Bull Rush, an extra sneak attack delivery system
Burrowing Claws (Illithid) //Burrow 20' through hardness 8-
Grasping Mandible (Illithid) //2d6 bite attack, sneak attack e
Poison Fangs (Yuan-Ti) // Fort DC 17 1d6 Con/1d6 Con with bite attack
Long Arm (Fiendish) // Reach+5', so 15' now
Strong Leg (Fiendish) // Con+2(Inherent)
Chitin Plating (Silthilar) // Natural Armor+5, noncumulative with racial
Scaly Skin (Yuan-Ti) //Natural Armor+3

Spoiler: Items

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Items can be divided into useful augmentations and the items themselves.

Spoiler: Items themselves

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A composite longbow with a strength bonus provides exceptional range for virtually any situation. You can bow attack, melee, or hide basically always. The lack of a touch attack and sneak attack damage is a significant drawback, but it's a useful capability. Amongst arrows, the Serpentstongue arrow (Races of the Wild) seems like a good default with some long range (Dragon #358) arrows in case of need.

The Poison Ring (Dragon Compendium) allows for touch attacks which is amazingly useful despite the minimal one point of damage. The weapon is simple as well, so proficiency is easy.

An Exotic Military Saddle helps the characters keep together for benefits from Double Team and Allied Defense.

A Tower Shield is useful for situations where total cover is needed.

One-handed reach weapons like the Kusari-Gama (DMG) or an undersized Glaive augment the scope of Double Team and Allied Defense.

A Chain Shirt, Dastana (Oriental Adventures/Arms&Equipment), and a Chahar-Aina(Oriental Adventures) are a staple for an armor bonus that does not encumber.

There are several thrown weapons that use touch attacks.
Aboleth Mucus (Savage Specie 46) //Thrown Grenadelike weapon w/ DC 19 Fort save or lose the ability to breath air for 3 hours
Red Tidewater (Planar Handbook 77) //Thrown touch weapon that blinds for 2d4 rounds
Net //Eating the exotic weapon penalty the hard way.

Oil or Oleum (Sandstorm) can apply a small amount of area effect damage that could eventually kill a swam with sufficient application. (Often, treating swarms as a natural hazard that you avoid is more effective.)

Masterwork tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus to skill checks.

There is no real limit to the amount of rations or water that can be carried other than weight, so with an enormous carry capacity you can go a long ways after stocking up.

Spoiler: Item Augmentations

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Size should generally be appropriate, but sometimes smaller size is useful for switching a reach weapon to be one-handed. It's notable that 1d8 damage weapons increase substantially in damage when shifted to large size.

Material
Mithril is most useful in armors---it removes all armor check penalties.
Blue Ice (Frostburn) is good for dealing extra damage.
Thinaun (Complete Warrior) are single use weapons that effectively keep a creature dead.
Serrenwood (Book of Exalted Deeds) provides a rare means to affect incorporeal creatures by mundanes with bows and arrows.
Jade (Oriental Adventures) provides another means to affect incorporeal creatures by mundanes.
Kheferu (Sandstorm) bypasses DR/Magic for [Earth] creatures
Calomel (Magic of Eberon) bypasses DR/Magic for [Fire] creatures
Frystalline (Book of Exalted Deeds) bypasses DR/good on creatures.

There are several sources of crafting alternatives.
The Elvencraft bow (Races of the Wild) allows the bow to be used as a melee weapon, which is particularly handy if the bow happens to be made of Serrenwood.
The Feycraft item template (DMG II) can make light weapons have weapon finesse, which really matters sometimes.
The Dwarfcraft item template (DMG II) makes weapons hardier and is a good default.
Dragon #358 has several modifications to armor and weapons
For armor, some combination of Lightweight, Reinforced, and Segmented seems particularly useful.
For weapons Razor Sharp and Serrated are useful.

There is one highly useful tactical trick using White Raven Tactics and a high initiative.

Spoiler: The 4x

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Since every member has White Raven Tactics, depending on circumstances they can choose to make any character act 4 times each round. Suppose that we want character A to act. If character A's initiative is later, then character B can use WRT to move it up and character A can use WRT on themselves to act again immediately after acting. After that character C and D can each use WRT to enable character A to act two more times, for a total of 4 rounds worth of action in a single round.

The advantage here is that if you need an archer, the Burglar can be A spewing out a massive number of ranged touch attacks to daze and damage. If you need some mighty swings, then the Hulk can be A. If you need to maximize expected damage or use nonprecision damage, then the Jack can be A. And if you need to maximize AC+attack against a super bruiser then the Scout can be character A. Effectively, every other round (with the warblade recovery mechanic), the best character can act on behalf of every other character.

There is no one build trick here---instead the trick is integrating many tricks together which various people here (Thurbane, Zarvistic, Troacctid, and ShurikVch for example) have pointed out over time. I'll detail those I can enumerate off-hand below and add any others that come up.

Spoiler: build tricks

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Spoiler: Touch Attacks

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Touch attacks provide an effective +30 to hit at high levels, because touch attack AC is static as a function of level. Given that mundane builds have difficulty scaling attack bonus with monster AC, using touch attacks is enormously helpful for escalating expected damage. There are two sources of mundane touch attack damage---the Poison Ring simple light weapon in Dragon Compendium and the Weak Spot ability of Master Thrower 5.

Spoiler: Reliable Sneak Attack

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Sneak Attack damage is normally hit-or-miss, but it can be made much more reliable with a little bit of investment. The Lightbringer Rogue ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) applies half sneak attack dice to the sneak attack immune when flanking (... and full Craven damage implicitly). The Double Team feat in Dragon Compendium allows you to count as flanking if two different allies are threatening the same opponent. The ability to threaten an opponent can be enhanced using one-handed reach weapons (like a Kusari-gama or an under-sized glaive) and the Long Arm Graft (Fiend Folio). Achieving the double threaten condition is particularly easy if one character rides another in an exotic military saddle.

Spoiler: Reliable Iaijutsu Focus

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Iaijutsu Focus (Oriental Adventures) requires drawing a melee weapon and attacking a flat-footed opponent. The first is easy: have a supply of daggers and take the quickdraw feat. For the second, the "Word Given Form" martial art in Tome of Magic provides a nonmagical source of total concealment. Per the rules compendium, total concealment makes targets flat-footed against your attacks. This can all be combined with a touch attack of your choice since the drawn melee weapon can be dropped as a free action with a preferred touch attack used instead.

Spoiler: Illusions

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Mundane characters are normally at the mercy of illusions. The spellcraft skill is a big help here, because it has an entry to "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect... No action required." This allows something to be identified as an illusion. This is not enough to see through it---that requires a will save, but a will save should be allowed once an illusion is detected. An entirely separate illusion defeat strategy is provided by blindsight which pierces most illusions.

Spoiler: High Saves

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One of the unique aspects of non-spellcaster classes is that you can take a few levels (1, 2, or 3) in many of them. In some situation multiclass penalties may come into play, but even that can be mostly avoided by keeping the number of classes almost the same. The upside here is the initial save bonus for all these classes accumulates significantly more rapidly than the saves of a single-class character, even a Monk. In addition, the Diamond Mind maneuvers (... probably best taken via a level of Swordsage) provide an even higher save alternative for must-make situations.

Spoiler: Healing

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Condition removal is fairly effective via Iron Heart Surge, making it a must-have maneuver for each character, implying a level of Warblade is desirable. In addition, the Martial Spirit stance effectively allows a sparring match to heal hit point damage. Martial Spirit applies to allies, so not every character needs a level of Crusader. Some people find it unintuitive that Martial Spirit is not magical, but that's definitely the rules.

Spoiler: Movement

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An extremely strong character that flies can easily carry 3 other characters: one in an exotic saddle and one in a hand that also has an exotic saddle. This occupies one hand. Thus party flight is easily achieved. Tactical teleport is easily achieved via the Shadow Jaunt maneuver. Many people find it unintuitive that Shadow Jaunt is not magical, but that's definitely the rules.

Spoiler: Armor Class

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Getting a high-enough armor class is generally fairly tricky, but you can get a decent armor class by using a Reinforced Segmented (Dragon Magazine #358) Mithril Chain with Mithril Dastana (Oriental Adventures/Arms & Equipment Guide) and a Mithril Chahar-Aina (Oriental Adventures) which provides a +7 AC bonus without any armor check penalty. The wisdom bonus that Swordsage 2 provides typically frees up a hand that would otherwise be used on a shield. This can all be further enhanced by using the Silthilar Chitin Plating graft (+5, in Lords of Madness) followed by the Yuan-Ti Scaly Skin graft (Fiend Folio). Altogether, that's armor+7, Natural armor+8, +dexterity up to 7, +wisdom. On top of that, one character can use Allied Defense to provide up to +20 (we go up to +18 here). Together, these tricks typically leave armor class around 50.

Spoiler: Skills

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There are two basic tricks for skills---one is always getting a +2 circumstance bonus via the appropriate masterwork item. The more important one is using the retraining rules in PHBII (which are not listed as optional). These rules allow you to transfer 4 skill points/level into any skill that has previously been a class skill. Combining this with a class that has many skills at the beginning (e.g. rogue) and a class with many skills at the end (e.g. Ranger) allows you to effectively keep 4 otherwise-cross-class skills at near-full ranks for intermediate class levels and finish up with full ranks.

Spoiler: Grappling

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Grappling is normally a huge fear for mundanes, because it's just not possible to keep up with the grapple checks that colossal monsters generate. The close-quarters combat feat combined with the high damage that every character can output provides a solid defense.

Spoiler: Incorporeals

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Incorporeal monsters are by default invulnerable to attacks from mundane sources. There are two special materials which get around this---Serrenwood (Book of Exalted Deeds, limited to bows and arrows) and Jade (Oriental Adventures, does less damage/to hit). Keeping around some appropriate backup items provides an effective means to counter incorporeal opponents.

Spoiler: Strange Environments

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Underwater adventures are common enough. Obviously, having some whales is helpful, but the Sculpt Self (Dragon #304) feat takes this much further, providing the ability to breath water and numerous other bonuses like immunity to precision damage and several inherent bonuses to stats. Flight is providable by a single strong character, and the Burrowing Claws graft provides the ability to tunnel at 20' per round. Altogether, the party is fully capable of land/sea/air movement.

[Bonneduce]

Amazing resource, thanks much, Anthro (the races are reminiscent of something....can't put my finger on it...)

[zlefin]

Aren't some of those maneuvers SU, and thus count as magic?

It's so hard to find the spot in the book that details which maneuvers are SU.

[RandomPeasant]

Conventional wisdom states 'magic is necessary to handle standard game challenges'. As an optimization challenge, can we violate conventional wisdom with a totally nonmagical party capable of dealing with standard adventures over levels 1-20?

Define "standard adventures". Can you beat up an adventure path? Sure, but you could already do that with a party of Rogues and Warblades and whatnot. The issue is that you've cheesed so hard to get where casters are at mid-OP that you're absolutely dead to any caster BBEG that a DM who allows these characters would roll.

[Doctor Despair]

Define "standard adventures". Can you beat up an adventure path? Sure, but you could already do that with a party of Rogues and Warblades and whatnot. The issue is that you've cheesed so hard to get where casters are at mid-OP that you're absolutely dead to any caster BBEG that a DM who allows these characters would roll.

I mean, I'm not sure it's a reasonable stance to say that optimizing mundanes to the level of mid-OP casters means that the DM will crank up the difficulty beyond what mid-OP casters can handle. By that logic, a party of mid-op casters would prompt the DM to do the same thing, and that implies that the DM will always try to make challenges the party cannot handle. That's not a healthy approach to the game imo.

There are legitimately things that mundanes just can't deal with without a certain level of optimization. Some status debuffs or challenges normally just require magic. I haven't examined the builds in particular (just skimming the front page), but I don't think it's bad to try to create characters or party compositions that have something to do for every situation. The DM's job isn't to create "gotcha" moments and pelt the party with challenges they have no means to overcome, so such moments presumably come up by accident when the party has an incomplete or insufficient makeup of abilities and answers. Being more comprehensive and methodical in your character/party building is positive to my eyes and helps to avoid those situations.

[RandomPeasant]

I mean, I'm not sure it's a reasonable stance to say that optimizing mundanes to the level of mid-OP casters means that the DM will crank up the difficulty beyond what mid-OP casters can handle. By that logic, a party of mid-op casters would prompt the DM to do the same thing, and that implies that the DM will always try to make challenges the party cannot handle. That's not a healthy approach to the game imo.

That's not quite what I was saying. Imagine, for a second, a party of spellcasters that are as optimized as these mundanes. What sorts of encounters would challenge them to an appropriate degree? Now, how would these characters fare against those challenges? Well, they'd get pulped to about the same degree that a standard-op mundane gets pulped by a challenge scaled to a standard-op caster (past low levels). More, actually, because casters get better returns to optimization.

Now, I do think you're right that most tables don't play like that, but at the same time the paradigm you're suggesting makes the question asked by the thread essentially pointless. Yes, DMs will generally confront the party with encounters they can beat, rather than intentionally putting them up against stuff that will kill them simply because it's on the same level of optimization as them. But if the DM does that, it doesn't really matter what level of optimization you can get to, because you're always going to get challenges you can beat. "Can we optimize mundanes to the point that they can beat encounters tailored to the power level they've been optimized to" is a question whose answer is both trivial and uninteresting.

[Doctor Despair]

But if the DM does that, it doesn't really matter what level of optimization you can get to, because you're always going to get challenges you can beat. "Can we optimize mundanes to the point that they can beat encounters tailored to the power level they've been optimized to" is a question whose answer is both trivial and uninteresting.

As I said before, though, the game is balanced such that a DM, pulling encounters out of splatbooks, can definitely accidentally hit a party of mundanes with challenges they're literally unable to handle unless they are sufficiently optimized. While a DM doesn't aim to TPK, accidental TPKs are much more likely when there are holes in the types of challenges your party can deal with. I think it's admirable to try to fill those holes without resorting to spellcasting; it's optimal to fill those holes even if you are using spellcasting, of course.

I don't think a DM should optimize to the same extent that the players optimize; I think a DM should optimize enough to make challenging encounters for the party composition. Anthro has (again, supposedly, as I haven't looked through the builds yet) created a composition where the DM doesn't have to worry very much about accidentally TPKing because they included a SOL/SOS/SOD effect the party has literally no answer for, and I think that's positive.

[RandomPeasant]

I think a DM should optimize enough to make challenging encounters for the party composition.

Again, sure. But that makes the question meaningless. "Can the Texas Sharpshooter hit his target" is simply not an interesting question to ask, because the target is defined around the thing he hits.

[Doctor Despair]

Again, sure. But that makes the question meaningless. "Can the Texas Sharpshooter hit his target" is simply not an interesting question to ask, because the target is defined around the thing he hits.

I also think it's uninteresting to ask "can the DM optimize to design an encounter the party cannot beat?" The answer will invariably be yes.

[Teth]

I also think it's uninteresting to ask "can the DM optimize to design an encounter the party cannot beat?" The answer will invariably be yes.

Circle Magic, Arcane Disciple (Evil). Lower tier casters dispel defenses, circle leader casts CL 40 Blasphemy.

Or there's the old "antimagic zone, physical barriers, 200 warriors with repeating crossbows" trick.

[RandomPeasant]

I also think it's uninteresting to ask "can the DM optimize to design an encounter the party cannot beat?" The answer will invariably be yes.

That's good, because that was never the question I was asking. The question I was asking is "if these characters face challenges that comparable non-mundanes face, can they achieve a comparable result". And the answer to that question is either a resounding no (if "comparable" means by level of optimization), or a trivial yes (if "comparable" means by level of power). You can define the question however you like, but there is no set of definitions by which the answer is a "yes" that means anything of significance.

[Anthrowhale]

Aren't some of those maneuvers SU, and thus count as magic?

This is definitely 'no'. The relevant rules are quoted in the earlier post. This is unintuitive given some of the effects (teleport, heal, and condition removal), but the rules are pretty clear cut.

Define "standard adventures". Can you beat up an adventure path? Sure, but you could already do that with a party of Rogues and Warblades and whatnot.

I'm skeptical here if the claim is that a party of Rogues & Warblades without magic can manage published adventures. The saving throws aren't viable, the warblades will negate the stealth of the rogues, and the lack of healing will generate a 5 minute adventuring week. If there is any doubt about this, then I'd invite you to come up with some build sketches.

The amount of optimization here is quite high yet still in the realm of balanced against game expectations. Any game played with these characters would have a fundamentally different character from normal D&D because there is no 'getting better' after death.

Edit: just to give a sense of things, a mundane Rogue 20 might have a Fortitude save of +8 (+6 base, +2 Con). That's a 10% chance of surviving a Pit Fiend's DC 27 save-or-die sting.
The will save might also be +10 (+6 base +2 Wis +2 Otyugh Hole Iron Will) which leaves them extremely vulnerable to a Balor's DC 27 Dominate Monster.
Even a Reflex save of +19 (+12 base +7 dexterity) looks low compared to a Black Wyrm's DC 34 Acid breath.

[King of Nowhere]

Regarding the problem of op level on the dm side, this party would be an excellent idea in case of a gaming group with players more skilled at optimizing than the dm. It would allow the players to optimize as much as they want while the less-skilled dm can still come up with meaningful challenges.

[Lans]

@ Anthrowhale by 'standard game challenges' would you say encounters and scenarios that are out of book would fall under this

[Anthrowhale]

@ Anthrowhale by 'standard game challenges' would you say encounters and scenarios that are out of book would fall under this

That sounds about right. More generally, existing published adventures from 1st parties or dungeon magazine seem very pertinent with 3rd parties at least interesting to look at.

[Soranar]

You could use a singing robot dragon that rides a dragon into battle

Race: warforged
Template: Dragonborn of bahamut

Substitution levels and alternate class features

-warforged paladin level 2 and 3 (keep normal smites to fuel smite to song)
-Dragonscale husk (it's essentially free armor)
-harmonious knight (adds perform to class skills for smite to song, gives you inspire courage/competence and greatness, lose detect evil and remove disease)
-use holy warrior to trade spellcasting for extra feats
-divine counterspell is arguably more useful than turn undead in your case

key feats

dragon steed (for the dragonnel mount)
from smite to song (for an inspire courage that scales)
mounted combat feat tree (all are allowed as bonus feats through holy warrior)

STATS

Unlike a standard paladin you are not MAD, you just need a bit of DEX to max out your AC, 13 CHA to take the dragon steed feat. No need for wisdom or INT, you can max out Constitution since everything keys off of it.


You get a ridiculously defensive warrior (tons of hitpoints, immunities and high saves)
That heals (repair damage works on living targets for half or full for warforged)
That sings like a bard of it's level for inspire courage
That rides a dragon (6 dragon hit dice as the base)

The dragonnel as tough as you and has a ton of skillpoints (x6 per HD) and full BAB too

[Anthrowhale]

...

This sounds like fun, but more magical than what I'm looking for here---we are being hardcore on the mundane. For example, warforged creation is explicitly magical and smite is a magical ability.