DM's Beware (house rules)

[TheGrimace]

DM's Beware! What I have are
1st a suggestion to change the way you look at potions
2nd a few magic items.

the following rul- er... suggestions will lead to a significant increase in decision making.

I forsee a world where Potions can be used as weapons!
why not?

throw a potion of fireball as a grenade like weapon. Any creature hit with a ranged touch attack takes 5d6 points of fire damage, and anyone caught in the splash is allowed a saving throw (Ref 14) for half damage.

or use a potion of color spray. Direct hit or splash forces will save (DC 11) or face punishment based on hit die.

These rules work very well with spells with a saving throw descriptor of partial, or half. Where the one hit with the item takes full affect (or saving throw for partial) and all caught in the splash take partial (or saving throw for none).

This gets even more exciting when you break open your old Magic Of Faerun book, and look at the Master Alchemist prestige class...

Vial of Metapotion
Each Vial of Metapotion is created with a different metamagic feat keyed to it. A potion must wait in such a vial for 1 week before it gains the abilities of the vial, and once removed, loses the metamagic effects in an hour.
Metapotion vial (extend, enlarge, widen, any other +1 spell slot) 1,000gp
Metapotion vial (empower, any other +2 spell slot) 4,000gp
metapotion vial (maximize, and other +3 spell slot) 9,000gp
metapotion vial (Energy Admixture, any other +4 spell slot) 16,000gp

you get the idea.

[Icewalker]

And for the vials, I assume you drink it, then when you cast a spell it is applied? That's an interesting idea.

You could also say that if you mix a metapotion with a weapon potion it would apply it.

[Mewtarthio]

I was assuming that the vials held potions and applied the metamagic to them.

[DracoDei]

That is what I would figure as well...

[SoD]

I like something similar to this, where potions/oils that can be used in combat (similar to the colour spray thing) count as wonderous items, but, in reality, are just things that cast spells when they break. For example, colour spray, as you just mentioned it, you point the jar in the direction you want to 'cast' colour spray from, and open it.

[levi]

When I first started playing DnD (3.0), I wondered why you couldn't make a potion of fireball. I asked my friend (the rules guru of our group) and he said if he was DMing, he'd allow it.

As I learned more about DnD magic items, I realized that what one really wants is an oil of fireball, as a potion of fireball isn't nearly as usefull as one might immagine. (Athough I suppose it could work as a cursed item or cruel practical joke.)

I actually wrote up full rules for it here on my DnD website. Basically, it's stored in a glass vial that permanatly sealed with a lead stopper. When exposed to air, it explodes as a fireball, centered on the vial. Pretty simple stuff.

Other spells can be more complicated to adapt, but it's doable with a little imagination.

[Abjurer]

Now I want to lace the coolaid fountain with potion of disintegrate.

[Mewtarthio]

Potion of dominate person. Because love potions are for wussy elf-men.

[Archangel Yuki]

Potion of dominate person. Because love potions are for wussy elf-men.

Indeed.
Can you imagine ever mislabling one of these potions?
Oops, that was a potion of maximized magic missile.
Awesome.

[jindra34]

Indeed.
Can you imagine ever mislabling one of these potions?
Oops, that was a potion of maximized magic missile.
Awesome.

Or malious labeling in the lab.

[loopy]

I actually wrote up full rules for it here on my DnD website. Basically, it's stored in a glass vial that permanatly sealed with a lead stopper. When exposed to air, it explodes as a fireball, centered on the vial. Pretty simple stuff.

I could think of many uses for this item.

My assassin could throw one at his feet and use the explosion to hide himself. A variation of the smoke bomb, but more exciting.

Although, to be honest, my assassin could make use of the potion as well... Present a glass of it at a banquet or feast to your intended victim. They imbibe, heads explode, I walk away while calamity erupts.

My assassin isn't the nicest sort.

[Istari]

A potion of dominate person is also a good plot hook. A villian could dump several in a towns watering supply and well you see where i'm going.

[TheGrimace]

So, now that this is getting a positive response...

can anyone think of a good reason other than "that's not fair" to prevent someone from filling a clay jug with 6 or 7 oils Meteor Swarm and throwing it?

Yeah, I realized that oil was the way I wanted to go, but since Potion comes before Oil in the Alphabet, if I use that term, people suddenly wonder what I'm talking about.

[Old_el_Paso]

So, now that this is getting a positive response...

can anyone think of a good reason other than "that's not fair" to prevent someone from filling a clay jug with 6 or 7 oils Meteor Swarm and throwing it?

Yeah, I realized that oil was the way I wanted to go, but since Potion comes before Oil in the Alphabet, if I use that term, people suddenly wonder what I'm talking about.

Actuall it's O then P

L M N O P Q R

[Enlong]

So, now that this is getting a positive response...

can anyone think of a good reason other than "that's not fair" to prevent someone from filling a clay jug with 6 or 7 oils Meteor Swarm and throwing it?

Yeah, I realized that oil was the way I wanted to go, but since Potion comes before Oil in the Alphabet, if I use that term, people suddenly wonder what I'm talking about.

I dunno, perhaps it'd be too costly? I think these oils and potions should cost a good deal, but I dunno the pricing conventions. But I do think that an oil of a 9th level spell would cost a fair amount.

[Tyonisius]

I allow pretty much the exact same thing in my campaign. I limited it by making it a crafting feat like brew potion.

Brew Oil [Item Creation]
You can create oil vials, which carry spells within themselves.
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 5th+
Benefit: You can create a oil of any spell of 6th level or lower that you know, that targets a creature or creatures, and is offensive in nature. Brewing an oil takes one day. When you create an oil, you set the caster level. The caster level must be sufficient enough to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of an oil is its spell level multiples by its caster level multiple by 100 gp. To brew an oil, you must spend 1/20 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing half this base price.
When you create an oil, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. The oil may be thrown, and whether it hits or not is determined by breaking a touch AC, just like with the spell.
Any oil that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the oil.

I increased the cost of making oils because they can give a lot of firepower potential to non-spellcasters while in combat and because I raised the level of the spell that could be made into an oil from the Brew Potion feat.

[TheGrimace]

Ah, I figured you could only surpass the 3rd level spell limit by means of master alchemist, of some similar situations

[boomwolf]

So, now that this is getting a positive response...

can anyone think of a good reason other than "that's not fair" to prevent someone from filling a clay jug with 6 or 7 oils Meteor Swarm and throwing it?

Yeah, I realized that oil was the way I wanted to go, but since Potion comes before Oil in the Alphabet, if I use that term, people suddenly wonder what I'm talking about.

They blow up if two touch each other. Will that work?

[levi]

Well, even with my relaxed potion and oil rules, I still enforce the third level spell limit, so some of the ideas mentioned above wouldn't work. However, given the high cost of such things, it might be ok, I'm not sure.

Another thing I did was change the requirements to create an elixer from craft wonderous item to brew potion. As far as I can tell, the only reason they aren't potions is becaus they don't exactly duplicate a spell. Well, I say fooie on that. Wonderous Item is a catch-all category and anything one can justify moving to a different one, should be.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, this 3rd level rule. Can I put forth the suggestion that permaybehaps, as one puts levels into a craft skill such as Alchemy, or maybe even Potionmaking altogether, the cost/max-level go down? I mean, spell level × its caster level × 50 gp means that a fireball potion would cost 450 gold.

What kind of level 3 is really going to spend 450 gold on a regular basis? Although, I must admit, I havn't really played enough to know.. perhaps this is common? Or I'm just too used to the traditional gaming philosphy "If you ever need to buy more than one, you should have at least twelve."

[DracoDei]

Just a random thought:
If you want to be cautious you could always make elixirs require BOTH Brew Potion AND Craft wondrous Item... AND maybe a certain number of ranks (specific to the individual elixir or based on the spell level) in Craft[Alchemy].

[shadow_archmagi]

As long as we are discussing Alchemy..

I was wondering, if permaybehaps Alchemy could be used to create Oozes, in much the same way other skills help make Constructs. I mean, an ooze is just an animate blob of chemicals, right?

[levi]

So, this 3rd level rule. Can I put forth the suggestion that permaybehaps, as one puts levels into a craft skill such as Alchemy, or maybe even Potionmaking altogether, the cost/max-level go down? I mean, spell level × its caster level × 50 gp means that a fireball potion would cost 450 gold.

That is incorrect. The spell level for fireball is 3rd. This requires a minumum caster level of 5th. 3 × 5 × 50 = 750 gp.

Use activated item are expensive, as they should be. They allow non-casters access to magic. If you want cheaper effects, use a spell trigger or spell completion item instead. Although the idea to allow some sort of alchemy skill check to reduce the cost does have some merit.

What kind of level 3 is really going to spend 450 gold on a regular basis?

Well, it's spell level 3, which requires a caster level of at least 5 to craft. Also, 750 gp is the market price, so the crafting materials cost is half that (375 gp + 30 xp). If you think oil of fireball is expensive, consider that the market price for an oil of meteor swarm (mentioned above as a possible abuse) would be 7650 gp. (That's just slightly less than the cost of a +2 weapon.)

[shadow_archmagi]

Still.. I suppose it WOULD be a pretty nice start to a fight, being able to blast your enemies for a few d6 damage.

[TheGrimace]

I'm at least moderately convinced that this whole view of things isn't crackable... just interesting...

disintegrate.
Direct hit Fortitude save (dc 19, right?) or die, success means 5d6 damage.
Splash, 5d6 damage fortitude save (DC 19) resists.

[levi]

I think that oil of disintegrate is overpowered. It turns a single target spell into an area effect. Not that it couldn't be done, but it would have to cost more than the list price.

While I haven't worked out formal rules for it, I think some consideration needs to be made for the target and effect properties of the spell in the potion. (While most of these effects are technically oils or something, I've used the potion terminology throughout.)

Spells that target a single creature or multple creatures are the easiest to handle. They work pretty much like a standard oil or potion. Spells targeting an object are like those targeting a creature.

Touch spells are also pretty easy to handle. Contact with the potion triggers the spell. Offensive spells are used like a greanade. On a successfull ranged touch attack, the target is effected. A miss leads to loss of the potion.

Area effects get more complicated. Bursts and Emanations are pretty easy to handle. The effect is centered on point where the potion is applied.

Lines and Cones are more difficult to handle. These should proably be aimed by pointing the vial and unstoppering it. This would then work as nomal. If the vial is broken, rather than unstoppered, the direction of the effect would be random. (Roll 1d8, similarly to missing with a greanade.)

Rays could be handled similarly. However, in this case, the user has to make a ranged touch attack, as normal for a ray. If a ray potion breaks, I'm not sure what should happend. The only thing that comes to mind is to roll 1d8 to pick a direction and then 1d20 (no modifers) as the attack roll on the first target in that direction. It might work.

As for shapeable effects, I'm not so sure. I suppose a characte could springle the potion over each 5 or 10 foot area and it could work. In the case of an undirected application, maybe it just centers on the point where the poition was applied, with extra sqares speading evenly in all directions.

Another thing to consider is that although the Brew Potion feat is technically used for potions and oils, it can be used for other sorts of magical doodads. (There's even a writeup on this in Complete Arcane.) From a rules perspective, it is simply used to create single charge use activate items. These could be anything from potions, to holy wafers, to temporary tatoos. Flavor wise, your imagination's the limit.

Exploring these options could also be a way to cut back on the number of worderous items. For instance, you could say that a necklace of fireballs is actually just several beads of fireball on a string. Using the expanded potion rules we've developed, such an item would be made with brew potion instead.

What do you think?

Edit: Here's writeup for oil of disintegrate, based on the above suggestions.

Oil of Disintegrate

This long thin vial contains a sparkling green liquid. It is sealed with an ornate bronze stopper. When the stopper is removed, the oil instantly evaporates into a corrosive green ray, as the disintigrate spell. (210' range, 22d6, fort DC 17 partial). The user of the oil may aim the ray with a ranged touch attack.

• Aura: Moderate Transmutation
• Caster Level: 11th
• Prerequisites: Brew Potion, disintegrate
• Market Price: 2250 gp
• Weight: Negligible

[TheGrimace]

I'd like to note that my oil of disintegrate only did a very reduced effect with its area of effect.

the 5d6 that you take when you fail your save is negligible compared to...
you know...
death.

[levi]

True, but you must be using 3.0 disintergrate. In 3.5, it's only a damage effect, not save or die. If it kills you, you're dust, but if not, you're fine. (If 22d6 damage can be called fine.)

What seemed unbalanced to me was the splash damage. If you hit your main target, you get a disintegrate, which is fine. If you happen to also spread around a few extra 5d6 damge, it's free.

As I reread what I wrote above, I think I may have been overthinking things, rays in particular. As most rays are ranged touch attack, it might be best to simply handle them as a greanade weapon (which, I think, is ranged touch). The range is much less, but it's more potion like. (Besides, you just get yourself a splash gun from Dark Sun and go to town. For those that don't know, a spash gun is like a crossbow that shoots fragile glass balls in a slotted lead casing. It's good for acid and holy water and stuff.)