Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[Liquor Box]

Roy is easily strong enough with his magic items to just be able to smash through that stone wall, and pretty good odds of being able to do so without them. No need to figure out what happened to the door when you can just make one.

A mimic is str 19, so Roy would be able to force it out of the way. That might be the reason why Serini went after him first, to stop him forcing the door back open. I doubt anyone else in the Order is that strong. How does it work if a couple of the stronger members combine their strength?

[a_flemish_guy]

in the first fight against miko she solo-ed the entire order without durkon

in the second fight roy smacked her down on his own without trouble because he had an actual weapon this time

[brian 333]

in the first fight against miko she solo-ed the entire order without durkon

in the second fight roy smacked her down on his own without trouble because he had an actual weapon this time

Roy fights better when mad.

[Doctor West]

I apologize if someone said this already, but in the case of this specific fight I don't think it's fair to fault Roy for failing his fort save against a poison that also took down O-CHUL recently.
And as for the idea that 'not being able to tank consistently makes you a bad tank', anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

[brian 333]

... anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

Boy, howdy. Some game nights you can't get a die to roll in your favor, and others a player rolls 3 nat 20s in a row on the night an expanded critical hit system is being introduced.

Then there was the night everyone failed to save, including the boss enemy who cast the spell, and it came down to which characters had more than 10d8 hp remaining. (My poor, poor wizard.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I apologize if someone said this already, but in the case of this specific fight I don't think it's fair to fault Roy for failing his fort save against a poison that also took down O-CHUL recently.

Fair point.

And as for the idea that 'not being able to tank consistently makes you a bad tank', anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

Having watched our warlock get feebleminded last night (even with some plusses to his saves) underscores that point for me.

[Yirggzmb]

I do think that the current fight is… well, I’m fine with the general premise of “Team Serini is incredibly dangerous”, but I’d say the Order is being incapacitated a bit too much before turning it around for me to entirely like it - it feels like the competence they’ve gained in the last book or two has been reset. They did okay in BRItF and really well in UD - and the final fight in BRItF was mostly the team trying to run away while the Dining Room fight would have been a complete loss if not for Belkar and Durkon breaking through at just the right moments.

That being said, “Roy is useless” is entirely false; arguably he’s being useless now because he’d break Rich’s plans over his knee. It’s why the casters get screwed over so often.

The easiest analogy I can think of for how I see it is how it tends to work in video games. You go through the level, getting more skilled and/or more strength to your character. Then you fight the level boss, and it's tough, but you pull out all the things you've learned over the last level and win. Then you move onto the next level and things have amped up again - you have to keep getting better.

In this case, we're in the final "level" (book) and the final boss is Xykon who's crazy dangerous. That puts Serini in the role of a "wake up!" mid boss, who reminds you that things are not just playing around anymore - things are going to be harder than you could expect, so get serious.

Obviously this is a story, not a game. But games and long running stories both often have a similar "get better, solve the current problem, and oh no the new problem is strong enough to challenge you again" flow to them. So to my eye, it's not that the Order is being reset. Just that they are currently more outclassed than they have been in a while.

Ymmv of course.

[elros]

It's worth noting that Roy is both the lowest level character in the party (due both to dying and also to being dead while other party members continued to gain XP), the lowest tier character in the party (Belkar's Ranger/Barbardian combo narrowly edges straight fighter), and the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks). It's hardly surprising that he has some significant efficacy issues even in the rather loosely adapted version of 3.5 D&D OOTS is dealing with.

This is, at least partly, the joke. The charismatic and noble warrior leader who is also shrewd and plans effectively for his team is a classic fantasy archetype played by many a fantasy protagonist (including in D&D, Tanis Half-Elven famously saved the world leading a party of misfits as a fighter), but 3.5 D&D made such a character into a terrible pile of garbage because in order to the fighter to remain relevant at the one thing they are good at, combat, they have to relentlessly pour essentially every class resource they possess into that space.

Now, as the story has progressed and grown more serious and it actually requires the characters to succeed or the world is doomed, Roy's extremely terrible build has become a genuinely liability to the story. This is hardly unique, V's rather dubious set of prohibited schools and spell selection massively hampers their overall power, and Elan's miserable Int and Wis continually constrain his ability to properly utilize his bard chassis (and the weird custom PrC he's using apparently makes him significantly weaker by cutting off his spellcasting progression since if he were a straight bard he'd have 5th level spells by now). However, even a massively unoptimized wizard is still very powerful and the comic has spent essentially it's entire runtime teaching the audience to expect nothing of Elan, so the issue really does hit Roy the hardest.

I disagree that Roy has a terrible build. From the Class Geekery Thread:

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human male Fighter 14+ (forum).
Str 29 (same as a frost giant).
Dex 13+ (required for Improved Grapple).
Con 12+ (151+ hit points).
Int 14-17 (very good, less than Vaarsuvius, forum).
Wis 14+ (very good, forum).
Cha 12+ (decent, forum; less than Elan).
Age: 29.
Feats: Cleave (prerequisite for Great Cleave), Combat Expertise (prerequisite for Improved Disarm), Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Least Legacy, Lesser Legacy, Power Attack (prerequisite for Cleave), Run, Spellsplinter Maneuver, Weapon Focus (prerequisite for Weapon Specialization), Weapon Specialization: greatsword.
Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Planes, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.
Items: Magical heavy armor, Bag of Tricks, club, newspaper, heirloom +5 Starmetal Greatsword of Legacy, formal suit, shillelagh oil, potion of delay poison, Ring of Protection (WXP), Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT), non-magical boots, bedroll, list of Xykon's spells, feats and magic items, Belt of Giant Strength, book, sextant, runestone, Wrecan's book, scarf, potions of Cure Serious, Remove Paralysis, Magical Vestment.

How is that a terrible build for a fighter?
As for the other characters in OOTS, most of them suffer from their dump stats (Elan's intelligence, Belkar's Wisdom & Intelligence, V's charisma, Durkon's charisma), which they don't have much control over. Other characters have worse builds: V specialized in a weak school (evocation) and banned the best two (conjuring and transmutation), Durkon suffers from never preparing the right spells, and Belkar cannot cast spells at all.
I agree Roy has a lower level and lower tier class, but he also has one of the most powerful weapons in the OOTS universe. From what we have seen, his sword is +5 to hit & damage, does extra damage against undead, returning, and several times a day heals to full hit points and acts as a haste spell. If Roy had his sword against Tarquin, he might defeat him one-on-one.

[Schroeswald]

[snipping all but this because I agree mostly] V specialized in a weak school (evocation) and banned the best two (conjuring and transmutation)

V didnt ban transmutation they banned necromancy, their specialization and banning still has seriously hamstrung them but they aren’t that bad.

[Metastachydium]

From what we have seen, his sword is +5 to hit & damage, does extra damage against undead, returning, and several times a day heals to full hit points and acts as a haste spell. If Roy had his sword against Tarquin, he might defeat him one-on-one.

(I agree with everything else you said, but
1. I'm not sure the sword gives him Haste (why do you say that it does?); and
2. Tarquin has (had?) +5 weapons of his own, as well as a magic item that lets him heal for quite an amount of hit points mid-combat. He probably has a few levels on Roy, a better chassis (I mean, pretty much everyone agrees that he's almost certainly an initiator) and a ton of very useful magic items (guy's crazy-prepared and filthy rich!). I wouldn't bet on Roy.)

[DLcygnet]

I'd say that Elan is the least combat effective of the Order, probably followed by Hayley

Lol Wait Wut? She's probably the most combat effective since she has the most uptime (not getting dead, poisoned, thrown off a cliff, or captured by Fiends); which results in more experience and thus is tied for highest level in the order (along with V). The whole point of this current comic sequence is to re-highlight she doesn't need a bow to be dangerous.

[Metastachydium]

Lol Wait Wut?

To be fair, absolutely slaughtering huge amounts of (relatively) weaker opponents is really Belkar's department. Where Haley actually shines is
1. defense; she is so hard to hit it's not even funny (if you want to hit her; otherwise it's funny enough); and
2. thinking outside the box (v. e.g. your own example from the latest strip).
(It's also worth mentioning that she's the only one who consistently managed to inconvenience Tarquin.)

As for who's the second least efficient in combat, I'd say the one (mind you, a fair bit) above Elan would be Durkon, in no small part as a result of his preferring to play support (although it also bears nothing that the three martials are better with weapons and V has superior offensive capabilities with spells, so he's pretty much destined to stay far from the top).

[TRH]

in the first fight against miko she solo-ed the entire order without durkon

in the second fight roy smacked her down on his own without trouble because he had an actual weapon this time

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

[Manga Shoggoth]

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

Really?

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

[TRH]

Really?

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

Yes. She drew her sword on him, declared him guilty of treason, which Roy well understood by this point equalled a summary execution when Miko is doing the sentencing, and swung. By the time she was finished, he was just starting to draw his weapon but had not moved from where he was standing. He froze. So did Hinjo, yes, but that's hardly an excuse. They both failed.

[dmc91356]

In the words of Thor,

Wow. That is . . . the single least charitable way to describe it.

[TRH]

In the words of Thor,

Wow. That is . . . the single least charitable way to describe it.

That's not the same as being wrong. And this is relative anyways. What other errors has he made that had even less of a defense that even fall in the same ballpark in terms of their consequences? Possibly jumping onto Xykon's dragon, but nobody had told him there was another plan to stop the lich.

[Ionathus]

Yes. She drew her sword on him, declared him guilty of treason, which Roy well understood by this point equalled a summary execution when Miko is doing the sentencing, and swung. By the time she was finished, he was just starting to draw his weapon but had not moved from where he was standing. He froze. So did Hinjo, yes, but that's hardly an excuse. They both failed.

...and the fact that neither Hinjo nor Roy spent even a second chastising themselves for not stopping her (and BELKAR, of all people, didn't rub it in their faces) should probably tell you that it happened too quickly for them to react.

Your temporal, blow-by-blow analysis does not make any sense for a comic strip, especially one based on D&D. Time is subjective in both of those genres: quite simply, it's not as cut and dry as "Roy saw her walking up the stairs, shouting angrily, so he objectively had X amount of time to take an action that could've stopped her." You have no reliable metric for these judgments, because time is fluid from one strip to the next. You are straight up making assumptions.

Why is it so hard to accept the comic book narrative idea that Roy (as well as Hinjo!) was completely caught off guard by Miko's sudden attack? Or the D&D narrative idea that she rolled higher initiative than them both?

[TRH]

...and the fact that neither Hinjo nor Roy spent even a second chastising themselves for not stopping her (and BELKAR, of all people, didn't rub it in their faces) should probably tell you that it happened too quickly for them to react.

Your temporal, blow-by-blow analysis does not make any sense for a comic strip, especially one based on D&D. Time is subjective in both of those genres: quite simply, it's not as cut and dry as "Roy saw her walking up the stairs, shouting angrily, so he objectively had X amount of time to take an action that could've stopped her." You have no reliable metric for these judgments, because time is fluid from one strip to the next. You are straight up making assumptions.

Why is it so hard to accept the comic book narrative idea that Roy (as well as Hinjo!) was completely caught off guard by Miko's sudden attack? Or the D&D narrative idea that she rolled higher initiative than them both?

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

[Empiar93]

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

They were still attempting to de-escalate the situation, especially Hinjo. But on top of that do you trust Azure City’s legal process to find Roy innocent, had he swung before Miko openly declared her intent to slay Shojo? Yes I’m making an assumption here, but Roy also told Belkar that they were to remain uninvolved, up until Shojo’s death. But even then Shinjo tells Roy to back down and STILL attempts to do things the peaceful way, until Miko refuses and he attempts to handle things himself.

By the time she announced her sentence her blade was out. By D&D rules (which were followed slightly more rigorously at this point) they couldn’t have done anything. In a society so uptight and honor-bound, proactive action is to your detriment - why do you think Roy and the party are here in the first place?

[TRH]

They were still attempting to de-escalate the situation, especially Hinjo. But on top of that do you trust Azure City’s legal process to find Roy innocent, had he swung before Miko openly declared her intent to slay Shojo? Yes I’m making an assumption here, but Roy also told Belkar that they were to remain uninvolved, up until Shojo’s death. But even then Shinjo tells Roy to back down and STILL attempts to do things the peaceful way, until Miko refuses and he attempts to handle things himself.

By the time she announced her sentence her blade was out. By D&D rules (which were followed slightly more rigorously at this point) they couldn’t have done anything. In a society so uptight and honor-bound, proactive action is to your detriment - why do you think Roy and the party are here in the first place?

She wouldn't have stopped trying to swing just because Roy was moving to stop her, so the courts would probably understand in the end. And I feel at some point between her saying that the courts cannot be trusted and her sentence, it should have clicked for him that Miko has two models for approaching criminals: arrest or execution, which means that ruling out one leaves you with the other. Hinjo I can believe was holding out hope she would back down, but Roy was much more cynical about her and rightly so.

[Seward]

I think there's literally nothing Roy could have done directly in this ambush unless they're able to ground Serini.

Every time magic came back, Sunni would be eating a thrown sword.

Beholders are dangerous but their hitpoints aren't that high for their DC.

[Seward]

anybody who has actually played the game instead of spending all their time theory crafting and nitpicking RAW can tell you that no saving throw is a guarantee.

Indeed, once you can afford to spend the cash, a lot of adventurers who don't even have sword proficiency pick up a sword of luck, just for the 1/day reroll on a saving through.

Reroll items and feats etc are gold at mid-high levels.

[Hurkyl]

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

A paladin who went out of her way to ensure a group of trolls prepared and ready for a fight despite fully intending to slaughter them? Who spent a long time refusing to act on her clear belief Belkar was evil until she could confirm it supernaturally, despite her apparent desire to do so? Who buckled under the weight of a very thin argument that she was responsible for providing them luxury accommodations as she hauled them back to Azure City?

I'm not sure how in character it sounds for someone like that not only to denounce the Law in its entirety but furthermore to substitute her own authority instead for immediate and final action. Maybe it sounds more plausible if the only parts of her character you remember are things like her anger at the various ways the order denied her, but *shrug*.

It's clear she thinks him guilty of treason and it's very... tropey... to continue to an on-the-spot execution. But outside of the tropes, it's not clear she's going to discard the process for dealing with treason until the dialog she makes when starting the surprise round.

[TRH]

A paladin who went out of her way to ensure a group of trolls prepared and ready for a fight despite fully intending to slaughter them? Who spent a long time refusing to act on her clear belief Belkar was evil until she could confirm it supernaturally? Who buckled under the weight of a very thin argument that she was responsible for providing them luxury accommodations as she hauled them back to Azure City?

I'm not sure how in character it sounds for someone like that not only to denounce the Law in its entirety but furthermore to substitute her own authority instead for immediate and final action. Maybe it sounds more plausible if the only parts of her character you remember are things like her anger at the various ways the order denied her, but *shrug*.

It's clear she thinks him guilty of treason and it's very... tropey... to continue to an on-the-spot execution. But outside of the tropes, it's not clear she's going to discard the process for dealing with treason until the dialog she makes when starting the surprise round.

She still slaughtered the ogres (not trolls) in the end. As for the rest, I don't know how it's supposed to be some insane or unintuitive leap of logic to conclude that the angry and volatile paladin who is, in fact, denouncing the law in its entirety and substituting her own judgment might not be all talk. I understand her character wasn't a static one over the course of the comic, but I don't think she ever said she was going to do something and failed to do so without having been convinced otherwise and admitting as much. And in this case she refused to be convinced otherwise. But apparently I'm the unreasonable one for expecting Roy to take the paladin at her word.

[brian 333]

She still slaughtered the ogres (not trolls) in the end. As for the rest, I don't know how it's supposed to be some insane or unintuitive leap of logic to conclude that the angry and volatile paladin who is, in fact, denouncing the law in its entirety and substituting her own judgment might not be all talk. I understand her character wasn't a static one over the course of the comic, but I don't think she ever said she was going to do something and failed to do so without having been convinced otherwise and admitting as much. And in this case she refused to be convinced otherwise. But apparently I'm the unreasonable one for expecting Roy to take the paladin at her word.

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Hinjo was similarly unable to break the law, and opted to use his best skill, Diplomacy, to achieve his goals.

Lawful characters often are forced to make decisions that are less tactically sound because what they want to do is unlawful.

Which was the test Miko failed. So, wow! I just realized that if Hinjo would have taken out Miko, he would be a fallen paladin, Miko would have still been there to destroy the sapphire, and...

Yeah. Worse result than now.

[TRH]

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Hinjo was similarly unable to break the law, and opted to use his best skill, Diplomacy, to achieve his goals.

Lawful characters often are forced to make decisions that are less tactically sound because what they want to do is unlawful.

Which was the test Miko failed. So, wow! I just realized that if Hinjo would have taken out Miko, he would be a fallen paladin, Miko would have still been there to destroy the sapphire, and...

Yeah. Worse result than now.

I really don't think paladins fall that easily. It was my understanding in 3.5 that paladins can perform the occasional chaotic action if they've got a good reason and don't make enough of a habit of it as to lose their lawful alignment. As opposed to immediate falling for performing a single evil action.

As for Roy's part, he wouldn't necessarily have to charge and full attack Miko immediately, but interposing himself between her and the defenseless old man in the room wouldn't have increased anyone's chances of dying there. And no, before you say it, it would not have increased Shojo's odds of dying either, since those were already at 100% if nobody stopped Miko.

[brian 333]

Hindsight is wonderful. But even after GoT was a thing, I never imagined a paladin would kill her leige. It seems so obvious now what Roy should have done, but he wasn't as surprised as I was.

[hamishspence]

At any point before Roy acted, Hinjo would have been required to act in opposition to him. It was not until Miko actually commited a crime that Roy was free to act.

Acting to stop a "murder attempt in progress" is reasonable behaviour, even legal, generally speaking. It fulfils the "self defence or defence of others" criteria for justified violence.

Still, it's true that you need a degree of readiness - a readied action would function in that respect, since they go off before the action that triggers them does. However, Roy isn't exactly in a position to kill Miko in one hit, which would have been needed for her attack action to not strike home. That, or bull-rushing her out of range of Shojo.

Considering Roy's position during the attack, it makes sense that he doesn't really have the opportunity, or sufficient notification, to ready an action in time, anyway.

[Peelee]

If we're going by D&D rules, I would call Miko's action the surprise round which spurred everyone to make their initiative rolls. Roy could not have acted during that round.

If we're going by what would reasonably have happened without regard to D&D rules, I would call Miko's action surprising as all get-out since nobody could have reasonably expected she would go from 0-100 that fast and just straight up jump to murder. Roy could not have acted fast enough.

Either way, not really a problem as I see it.