Is Treantmonk's homebrew "fixed" Monk overtuned?

[Kane0]

Reaping Mauler
- You can add both your STR and DEX modifiers to your unarmed strike damage rolls
- When you would be able to make an opportunity attack you can instead choose to attempt a grapple on the target
- When you reduce a creature to 0 HP with an unarmed attack, you gain advantage on the next unarmed attack or shove attempt you make before the end of your next turn

Just a thought, spent about 2 minutes on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Worth noting that a Monk can make use of most of those feats, they're arguably the best users of Crusher in the entire game, due to the sheer number of unarmed strikes they make.

A lot of nice points, but Crusher and Blind Fighting didn't show up until Tasha's, so there may be a lag in socializing your valid points.

Comparing Ki to something like Superiority Dice is far more oranges to oranges, and generally the Monk comes off miles ahead there.

I still feel that BM ought to be able to use any maneuver, but can only 'prepare' X amount based on level, like a cleric prepares spells ...
personal opinion. (My mental image is 'they are getting their game face on' or something like that).

[Dork_Forge]

A lot of nice points, but Crusher and Blind Fighting didn't show up until Tasha's, so there may be a lag in socializing your valid points.
I still feel that BM ought to be able to use any maneuver, but can only 'prepare' X amount based on level, like a cleric prepares spells ...
personal opinion. (My mental image is 'they are getting their game face on' or something like that).

Very good point, it takes a while for the current star of the game to soak in.

Hmm the BM thing is interesting, not my cup of tea personally as I prefer the more trained muscle memory aesthetic, but it does sound nice in my mind for how Arcane Archer shot options should work...

[Unoriginal]

I wish Crusher could apply to more than one attack per turn.

[Dork_Forge]

I wish Crusher could apply to more than one attack per turn.

It would be nice, the Crit condition is a nice benefit for a class that makes a lot of attacks though.

[SharkForce]

I really don't understand your complaint about them having to spend Ki (which at most tables to be blunt they'd do fine never using Ki), they have a lot of it and are encouraged to use it.

Roughly half of the subclasses enhance Flurry of Blows in some way, incentivising you to use it and giving you more bang for your buck.

If Monks aren't spending a chunk, if not most of their Ki on combat contributions, I'd really have to ask why they aren't. Let's be real, the game focuses more on combat than other pillars, using most of your resources to solve the problem of combat is probably proportionate to how much of the game is combat on average. And with so much Ki with a short rest recharge there's no reason to not blow it.

I think it was yourself that made the spell slot comparison, which is a bit off to say the least. The value of one Ki varies a lot, but tends to always be valuable, and increasing in value as levels increase. Where as spell slots typically become increasingly devalued as difficulty increases and the spells they power age out. You can't make a straight Ki-slot comparison, it just doesn't make much sense.

Comparing Ki to something like Superiority Dice is far more oranges to oranges, and generally the Monk comes off miles ahead there.

- half a dozen or more ways to spend ki, and the monk is expected to throw most of it into keeping up with their basic function in combat is my problem. that goes away slightly at the highest levels, but even then nearly half of their ki has to go into flurry just so that they can deal damage in the same neighbourhood as other damage-dealers, and because it also eats their bonus action it also locks out several of their other abilities.

- dunno what you're on about with spells. the value of spells don't decrease, it's just that you have enough of your higher level resources to not need to dip into the low level stuff so much. or in other words, the reason primary spellcasters don't rely on their low level spell slots has little to do with the spells not being good any more and lots to do with the fact that they have so many resources at high level that they don't need to resort to using bless or entangle or tasha's hideous laughter any more.

unless we're talking about sleep, I guess. that one legitimately becomes less valuable as levels increase.

[Reach Weapon]

In light of the above, treantmonk's changes go too far.

I think all that is more indicating the underlying premises may not be well founded, not that the resulting build is overtuned; that would likely involve running numbers on against his proposal.

Of course, as long as I am expounding on distinctions, while tuning is more supported by numbers, it is not synonymous with necessary, good or proper.

[Dork_Forge]

- half a dozen or more ways to spend ki, and the monk is expected to throw most of it into keeping up with their basic function in combat is my problem. that goes away slightly at the highest levels, but even then nearly half of their ki has to go into flurry just so that they can deal damage in the same neighbourhood as other damage-dealers, and because it also eats their bonus action it also locks out several of their other abilities.

Keeping up... in your opinion... In practice I don't think it's necessary at all.

Locks out which abilities though?

Step of the Wind? It's nice to have but you're not doing it regularly.

Patient Defense? This seems a very clear choice, are you tanking? Are you for some reason stuck in range?

Bonus action clog is real, but it's not like they're universally applicable and again, a lot of subclasses have added incentive to use Flurry over another option.

- dunno what you're on about with spells. the value of spells don't decrease, it's just that you have enough of your higher level resources to not need to dip into the low level stuff so much. or in other words, the reason primary spellcasters don't rely on their low level spell slots has little to do with the spells not being good any more and lots to do with the fact that they have so many resources at high level that they don't need to resort to using bless or entangle or tasha's hideous laughter any more.

unless we're talking about sleep, I guess. that one legitimately becomes less valuable as levels increase.

What? So you're arguing 1st level damage spells age well (besides MM)? Or did you happen to choose control spells to avoid that?

Is it bad if a spellcaster has to spend their slots to keep up with damage?

If your answer is going to be about spellcasters doing things other than damage, then maybe apply that same statement to the Monk.

[SharkForce]

Keeping up... in your opinion... In practice I don't think it's necessary at all.

Locks out which abilities though?

Step of the Wind? It's nice to have but you're not doing it regularly.

Patient Defense? This seems a very clear choice, are you tanking? Are you for some reason stuck in range?

Bonus action clog is real, but it's not like they're universally applicable and again, a lot of subclasses have added incentive to use Flurry over another option.





What? So you're arguing 1st level damage spells age well (besides MM)? Or did you happen to choose control spells to avoid that?

Is it bad if a spellcaster has to spend their slots to keep up with damage?

If your answer is going to be about spellcasters doing things other than damage, then maybe apply that same statement to the Monk.

- those are some good examples of where the monk has to make sacrifices where other classes don't.

- 1st level spell slots are used for a lot of things. if some of those things are still valuable at high level, so are the spell slots.

and the key difference between spellcasters and monks is that when spellcasters decide to go big on resource spending, the impact is far above what other classes achieve without resources. even a fireball can pull that off potentially (in a big fight against a group, 8d6 damage to an area, save for half can very easily be measurably several times better than a full attack), but it is far from the only option. if the monk was causing up to 12 people to leave the fight entirely by spending a bunch of ki at level 6 (and possibly causing a chain reaction where even those who don't make their save decide to leave), I wouldn't be calling for change. instead, when they go all out on spending ki, they tend to neutralize one target for one round. that's nice, but it still means they spend a lot more of their resources and get a lot less out of it while being at a much higher risk. of course, I have to say I'm confused why I have to say this *again* since it's hardly the first time I've pointed it out.

[Rynjin]

Part of the issue, at least for me playing a Monk, is that while the Monk does technically provide something to the party other than damage (Stunning Fist)...it's not a particularly interesting role, and doesn't give you anything really in terms of moment to moment decision making.

Of the Monk types I've played, Open Hand is probably the most interesting in terms of getting to do cool stuff round to round but unfortunately suffers from being, like everything else, locked to ki expenditure, and every other one of its class features being kind of trash (especially Tranquility).

Maybe if they got to just do those maneuvers as a Bonus Action (since none are really that impactful on their own) it'd be a different story.

I hear Shadow Monk makes a really good scout, but TBH I don't value scouting that much when done manually. Mostly because every time, in any Edition, someone has gone out on their own to scout ahead they've died (or come close). Our group just shorthands being killed while separated from the rest of the group as "The Rogue's Fate/Curse".

[Frogreaver]

- those are some good examples of where the monk has to make sacrifices where other classes don't.

- 1st level spell slots are used for a lot of things. if some of those things are still valuable at high level, so are the spell slots.

and the key difference between spellcasters and monks is that when spellcasters decide to go big on resource spending, the impact is far above what other classes achieve without resources. even a fireball can pull that off potentially (in a big fight against a group, 8d6 damage to an area, save for half can very easily be measurably several times better than a full attack), but it is far from the only option. if the monk was causing up to 12 people to leave the fight entirely by spending a bunch of ki at level 6 (and possibly causing a chain reaction where even those who don't make their save decide to leave), I wouldn't be calling for change. instead, when they go all out on spending ki, they tend to neutralize one target for one round. that's nice, but it still means they spend a lot more of their resources and get a lot less out of it while being at a much higher risk. of course, I have to say I'm confused why I have to say this *again* since it's hardly the first time I've pointed it out.

I've got to ask, why do you keep going back to comparing monks to full casters instead of their martial counterparts?

[Rynjin]

I'd imagine the best comparison points for Monk are Battle Master Fighter for Open Hand, Rogue for Shadow, and Bladelock(?) for Four Elements and Sun Soul?

Not sure what the schtick is for archetypes like Long Death, or anything post-SCAG I haven't looked in depth at them.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Of the Monk types I've played, Open Hand is probably the most interesting in terms of getting to do cool stuff round to round but unfortunately suffers from being, like everything else, locked to ki expenditure, and every other one of its class features being kind of trash (especially Tranquility).

The free Sanctuary spell from Tranquility helps your scouting, and makes you a good messenger...especially when you have to deliver bad news.🃏
Martial Arts
Unarmored Movement
Slow Fall
Extra Attack
Deflect Missiles (no throwing back)
Evasion
Stillness of Mind
Purity of Body
(This takes us up to 11th level)

None of these features require Ki point expenditure, (except throwing the caught weapon from Deflect Missiles).

A High level monk is immune to Poison and Disease, has Evasion, is proficient in all Saving Throws and can reroll a failed save with a Ki point expenditure.

I've DM'd for two monks so far...the still active Open Hand Monk at 13th level and a 17th level Dwarven Long Death Monk.....the LD Monk was a tough customer....but honestly immunity to one of the most common damage type, (Poison), plus Evasion has meant the Open Hand Monk isn't too far behind in terms of reducing Damage.

Where is this Ki point deficit coming from?

[Rynjin]

From Flurry, which is needed to both deal damage and use any of your Open Hand maneuvers. And Stunning Fist, of course.

Tranquility is garbage because it shuts off after the first combat of the day.

Edit: I should also clarify that this is on top of how niche Sanctuary is as a spell in the first place.

Maybe if Open Hand had ways to deal with threats (besides running away) that didn't break the Sanctuary effect, but they do not.

[Dork_Forge]

- those are some good examples of where the monk has to make sacrifices where other classes don't.

This is an empty statement without back up, what are you even referencing here?

Step of the Wind: The clearest thing to reference would be Uncanny Dodge, which wouldn't be a straight comparison because 1)it's a significantly larger part of a Rogue's kit than SotW is the Monk's and 2) a Rogue will have to dash more often than a Monk, because of unarmored movement. Expeditious Retreat maybe since you referenced classes plural, which is a spell that costs a resource and locks you out of other leveled spells for a turn to achieve being slightly faster than the Monk is normally?

Patient Defense: I can't think of any other feature or spell in the game that allows dodging as a bonus action, so... yeah

Are you instead trying to say that other classes don't need to make that choice in general? I mean every class has choices it has to make... Bard's have to choose between inspiring people or using their subclass features, as do the recent bout of Druids. Is it about choosing to hit something or use a more situational ability?

That one's simple, most classes don't even give you repeatable options for your bonus, and a lot of the ones that do come from subclass minionmancy nowadays.

- 1st level spell slots are used for a lot of things. if some of those things are still valuable at high level, so are the spell slots.

You just completely side stepped a huge swath of spells aging out of usefulness. A problem that is particularly prevalent for known casters that swap their spells out slowly and basically dead spellbook space for a Wizard.

and the key difference between spellcasters and monks is that when spellcasters decide to go big on resource spending, the impact is far above what other classes achieve without resources. even a fireball can pull that off potentially (in a big fight against a group, 8d6 damage to an area, save for half can very easily be measurably several times better than a full attack), but it is far from the only option. if the monk was causing up to 12 people to leave the fight entirely by spending a bunch of ki at level 6 (and possibly causing a chain reaction where even those who don't make their save decide to leave), I wouldn't be calling for change. instead, when they go all out on spending ki, they tend to neutralize one target for one round. that's nice, but it still means they spend a lot more of their resources and get a lot less out of it while being at a much higher risk. of course, I have to say I'm confused why I have to say this *again* since it's hardly the first time I've pointed it out.

Your hypothetical Fireball is catching 12 enemies and no allies? Really? That's so far out of DMG guidance and I'd wager actual table experience for the majority of Fireball users that I have to question why you're even using such a ridiculously large number.

Here are some observations about that last little chunk of argument:

-As already mentioned the example is hyperpole per excellance

-Your example is AOE, something all martials struggle with to varying degrees because it's generally a niche held for casters. That said a Sun Soul Monk at 6th level can do an normal Extra Attack and throw a bonus action Burning Hands out, and a 4E Monk has a few AOE options by this time. As powerful as Fireball? Not at 6th level, but the Monk has two options for that at a level anyone other than a fullcaster can reasonably get such a thing. Monks can't have something like this earlier, their short rest nature means that they'd be able to spam it multiple times across a day. Something most fullcasters wouldn't be able to do as well with a long rest resource.

-You're assuming that one target is stunned, any Monk can attack four enemies in a turn where Ki is available and enemies are in range. You can stun 1-4 targets, you're just assuming single target for some reason.

So you want more impactful things that a Monk at 6th level, for some reason, can do, sure! Keep in mind that Monks can now make a weapon attack as a bonus if they spend Ki as part of their action.

- Silence and Darkness, both potentially potent debuffs

- Hold person and any variety of the several AOE options a 4E Monk has by that point.

- Facetank (Open Hand action heal + Patient Defense)

- Annoy several enemies at once (Drunken Monk running around punching face without provoking OAs with an average speed of 55ft)

- Fear everything within 30ft, at will no ki cost.

- Output normal Flurry damage damage whilst still healing an ally, and poisoning a monster

From Flurry, which is needed to both deal damage and use any of your Open Hand maneuvers. And Stunning Fist, of course.

Tranquility is garbage because it shuts off after the first combat of the day.

Edit: I should also clarify that this is on top of how niche Sanctuary is as a spell in the first place.

Maybe if Open Hand had ways to deal with threats (besides running away) that didn't break the Sanctuary effect, but they do not.

If you were constantly low or out of Ki then were you just not getting short rests? Or were you flurrying every round and trying to stun everything that moved?

What was the encounter trend in terms of difficulty and frequency?

You didn't appreciate being to take care of your own HP to some degree?

[Rynjin]

I played an Open Hand Monk from levels 1 to 8 until they died, in the adventure path (or whatever 5e calls them) Out of the Abyss.

My other party members were an Archer Rogue, a Bard, and a...Cleric I believe? Maybe Druid, because it's what she'd played in the previous campaign and she may have wanted the same character for the new one. It's been a while.

I was the only frontliner.

The maximum amount of Ki I had available at any one time was 8, right before I died. I was essentially expected to be the primary damage role and tank.

This means Flurry was a necessity in most combats.

In the first few levels this was fine. Getting 3 attacks when everyone else was getting 1 is great, and tended to end combats quickly.

As the game went on, it became less impressive. Particularly as, has been mentioned, not every class has a particular use for Short Rests, save to heal. Since I was getting the **** kicked out of me every combat, being the only person in easy attack range, I did end up getting plenty of Short Rests, but at some point something's gotta give. I died, re-rolled as a Quaggoth Barbarian (taking over an NPC from the AP, Prince Derendil) and eventually kinda got sick of 5e as a whole for a good while and dropped out.

Encounter difficulty ranged from "trivial" to "ball busting" and several that should probably have been easier trended towards the latter because the Rogue was a useless POS most of the time. By choice, in most cases "for roleplay".

Later, I played a Sun Soul Monk under a different DM from levels...5 to 9 or so? Seemed fine. Still very ki intensive but at least it felt like every use of Ki had OOMPH for the most part. And it had a free, reliable ranged attack option.

[Zalabim]

So what your chart shows is that monks do ok DPR in featless games. The problem is that power attacks, feats that give advantage and the extra bonus attacks are major martial force multipliers. So much so that it can lead to doubling and tripling of total damage at certain lvls. Consider that in featless games fighters are damage capped at lvl 6, which means that each additional class feature (the extra asis) is basically doing nothing for them.

What the chart hides is that some of that damage is caused by other people taking advantage of the stun condition. The most a monk can deal without subclass abilities by hitting every attack and making a reaction attack, as from Deflect Missiles, is 52.5 damage.

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I don't flat out disagree with all of the proposed changes, but taken as a list, it is absolutely overtuned, particularly in the damage department.

Here's something I've considered in the past. A shadow monk can scout really well, and if I look at level 20, granting advantage for their attacks between empty body and stunning strikes and good preparation, and use opportunist (or deflect missiles) each turn, they deal 48.75 DPR against AC 19. If a thief rogue just hides and shoots their light crossbow every turn, they deal 42.9 DPR against AC 19, but I can adjust that to 5/4 in a 4 round combat due to their extra turn, so 53.625 DPR. That's without ever using stroke of luck. A lot of things could make up that difference. Magic weapons. Stunning strikes. Better subclass abilities? But that's being very simplistic, and very generous, to the monk. Within that context though, the monk making 5 attacks with advantage, that difference is exactly the difference between using a d10 and a d12 for martial arts. Hence my low-end of "could deal 5 more raw damage" I usually translate as scaling up to using a d12 martial arts die. That's totally on the safe end. Then I say up to 15 because that's about how much more damage a monk not making 5 attacks would need to add to match the difference. Finally, a warlock casting eldritch blast with hex and foresight for advantage does 52.65 DPR.

Having already thought that through myself, I see with 3d6 martial arts that shadow monk would deal 73.125 DPR. The assumptions that make a reasonable DPR with 3d6 martial arts is that the monk never has advantage at all, then that'd be 53 DPR. I know which one of those assumptions leads to "better undertuned than overtuned."

On the other end, if monk damage is fine at level 1 then don't boost monk's damage at level 1? How hard is that?


If the assumptions used are always either 100% or 0% stunning strike and/or flurry, then there isn't going to appear to be any scaling because the frequency of stunning and flurrying is part of their scaling.

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Create a quick monster says ~228 HP and AC 17. Now consider the Roc. That's CR 11, 248 HP, AC 15. With a party of fighter (greatsword FS 3 attacks), rogue (Light crossbow 6d6 sneak attack), cleric (sacred flame +5 wisdom), wizard (firebolt not evoker). If everyone just hits and never has a problem with the creature's 120' flight and Grab+restrain-on-hit talons, they deal 40+30.5+18.5+16.5=105.5 damage. That's 37 damage shy of ending the combat in potentially 2 rounds.

Looking at average damage, it's 31.25+31.08+11.1+13.2=86.63. Ends in 3 rounds, on average, barring an extra 75 average damage.

As I did do the math myself, I can add that a monk against a roc does 29.4 DPR with flurry and can try to stun even though there's only a 25% chance the roc fails its save. If it does work, the monk's next 6 or 7 attacks get advantage, the fighter and wizard get advantage, the cleric lands sacred flame automatically, and the rogue doesn't care because they already had their own advantage. The monk averages 1.995 more damage with each attack, the fighter's turn 8.6875, the wizard's turn 3.8775, and the cleric's turn 7.4. Figure between 32-33 extra average damage if the stun works, working 25% of the time, so about 8 more damage for the whole party. Giving only the monk's personal damage, and only 25% the time, still sees a personal average DPR around 32.5, for a very affordable use of Ki. A roc isn't the worst enemy for stunning strike, but it is a bad one.

Level 11 is fine, without even counting the later subclasses that get free bonus damage at that level.

You replied to the second one. To be clear here, conservative use of SS, against a Con-monster with lower AC like the Roc, takes the monk-only DPR from 29.4 to 32.5, but overall, the stunning strike is worth ~8 damage even counting it fails 75% of the time, and the flurry is worth 7.35 damage.

I think all that is more indicating the underlying premises may not be well founded, not that the resulting build is overtuned; that would likely involve running numbers on against his proposal.

Of course, as long as I am expounding on distinctions, while tuning is more supported by numbers, it is not synonymous with necessary, good or proper.

If I understand the question here:
Treant'sMonk. Assuming free stunning strikes have no less value than Ki.

• 5 - +7 to hit, 1d8+4, 17.25 average. Plus 5.75*18/20 equals 22.425 DPR.
• 11 - +9 to hit, 2d6+5, 28.05 average. Plus 9.35*37/20 equals 45.3475 DPR.
• 17 - +11 to hit, 3d6+5, 41.1 average. Plus 13.7*57/20 equals 80.145 DPR.

And this modified monk will go up in damage again at level 20.

[SharkForce]

I've got to ask, why do you keep going back to comparing monks to full casters instead of their martial counterparts?

you mean apart from all the people who've been saying that monks are a resource-based class and it's not reasonable that they should be compared to fighters and rogues in damage?

simply put: I am putting forward two separate sets of points against two separate sets of arguments. when I compare to spellcasters, it is because I am simply making it plain that monks are not a good resource-using class either. I am not using those points to address their damage problems at all.

This is an empty statement without back up, what are you even referencing here?

Step of the Wind: The clearest thing to reference would be Uncanny Dodge, which wouldn't be a straight comparison because 1)it's a significantly larger part of a Rogue's kit than SotW is the Monk's and 2) a Rogue will have to dash more often than a Monk, because of unarmored movement. Expeditious Retreat maybe since you referenced classes plural, which is a spell that costs a resource and locks you out of other leveled spells for a turn to achieve being slightly faster than the Monk is normally?

Patient Defense: I can't think of any other feature or spell in the game that allows dodging as a bonus action, so... yeah

Are you instead trying to say that other classes don't need to make that choice in general? I mean every class has choices it has to make... Bard's have to choose between inspiring people or using their subclass features, as do the recent bout of Druids. Is it about choosing to hit something or use a more situational ability?

That one's simple, most classes don't even give you repeatable options for your bonus, and a lot of the ones that do come from subclass minionmancy nowadays.



You just completely side stepped a huge swath of spells aging out of usefulness. A problem that is particularly prevalent for known casters that swap their spells out slowly and basically dead spellbook space for a Wizard.



Your hypothetical Fireball is catching 12 enemies and no allies? Really? That's so far out of DMG guidance and I'd wager actual table experience for the majority of Fireball users that I have to question why you're even using such a ridiculously large number.

Here are some observations about that last little chunk of argument:

-As already mentioned the example is hyperpole per excellance

-Your example is AOE, something all martials struggle with to varying degrees because it's generally a niche held for casters. That said a Sun Soul Monk at 6th level can do an normal Extra Attack and throw a bonus action Burning Hands out, and a 4E Monk has a few AOE options by this time. As powerful as Fireball? Not at 6th level, but the Monk has two options for that at a level anyone other than a fullcaster can reasonably get such a thing. Monks can't have something like this earlier, their short rest nature means that they'd be able to spam it multiple times across a day. Something most fullcasters wouldn't be able to do as well with a long rest resource.

-You're assuming that one target is stunned, any Monk can attack four enemies in a turn where Ki is available and enemies are in range. You can stun 1-4 targets, you're just assuming single target for some reason.

So you want more impactful things that a Monk at 6th level, for some reason, can do, sure! Keep in mind that Monks can now make a weapon attack as a bonus if they spend Ki as part of their action.

- Silence and Darkness, both potentially potent debuffs

- Hold person and any variety of the several AOE options a 4E Monk has by that point.

- Facetank (Open Hand action heal + Patient Defense)

- Annoy several enemies at once (Drunken Monk running around punching face without provoking OAs with an average speed of 55ft)

- Fear everything within 30ft, at will no ki cost.

- Output normal Flurry damage damage whilst still healing an ally, and poisoning a monster



If you were constantly low or out of Ki then were you just not getting short rests? Or were you flurrying every round and trying to stun everything that moved?

What was the encounter trend in terms of difficulty and frequency?

You didn't appreciate being to take care of your own HP to some degree?

- uncanny dodge doesn't interfere with a rogue's baseline damage at all. it's a reaction. with that said, it sounds like you *meant* to say cunning action, and I'll continue on that front. simply put, most of the rogue's damage comes from sneak attack dice. they can achieve pretty near full damage with either a ranged or melee attack, no problem. the rogue is perfectly capable of simply shooting an enemy that is out of range for a melee attack, with no need to rely on cunning action (although they certainly do have it available). unarmored movement is not necessary; just shoot the enemy (unless hiding is impossible and there are no allies nearby, but then, the monk should also not be charging ahead of the rest of the party to fight solo either, whether they have faster movement or not).

- other classes don't have to make choices on anywhere near the same level. bardic inspiration is a small fraction of what a bard does. it's a very *nice* small fraction, but it gets heaped on top of a full serving of spellcasting, which as I've already pointed out gives them vastly more resources than monk gets in the vast majority of plausible scenarios.

- most of those level 1 damage spells were *always* pretty useless on a wizard anyways. you probably want one of either burning hands or thunderwave (depending on whether you wanted the knockback or the damage more). with that said, seeing as a wizard can potentially get all the spells anyways, no big deal. clerics and druids don't have to give up anything to know all of their level 1 spells. bards, warlocks and sorcerers can change them out as if they never knew them. not really seeing the problem with level 1 damage spells "aging out". the only class where that has *any* impact whatsoever is a class that has unlimited capacity for learning spells.

- no, the hypothetical actual level 11 ability, mass suggestion, is potentially hitting 12 enemies and no allies. if you're fighting things that run away when you fireball them at level 11, it probably wasn't much of a fight to begin with, but I suppose that is also possible. not a bad use of a level 3 spell slot, really. this isn't about area effect, it's about the supposed superiority that monks enjoy in crowd control because of stunning blow. it isn't terrible, but compared to a class that *actually* gets *real* crowd control it very quickly falls behind.

- oh hey look, even more ways the monk can spend ki even faster and not be able to function! well, that's definitely what monks need and certainly isn't a slap in the face compared to eldritch knight and arcane trickster, both of which give access to more spells and ADD the resources to use them instead of expecting you to give up being a monk so that you can have a subclass. but hey, why don't we just add on top of that the option to not only spend your ki to accomplish anything and everything you want to do, how about we also call for them to drop their damage down so low that it's close to no-subclass-wizard levels?

I mean, really? you think self-healing and dodging is going to face-tank anything? maybe if you're fighting something that is literally as dumb as rocks (like unattended golems), but against any remotely intelligent foe, they'll just ignore your monk. I mean, if you're just healing yourself and dodging, that's pretty much as clear a statement of "I can be safely ignored" that you could make. or, you can fear everything within 30 feet. except that by everything, I mean everything, like your allies. I bet that couldn't go terribly wrong! or dealing a single attack worth of damage to multiple enemies, oh boy that sounds amazing, almost like a fireball except with one quarter of the damage and instead of save for half it's just a straight up miss. wow, so useful! and you only had to go through every single subclass of monk to find a handful of useful options!

but at least with mercy monk, we finally did actually get to a point where there's a monk subclass that isn't built like crap, where you don't have to blow through all your ki just to activate your subclass abilities while ignoring your class abilities because you can no longer afford to use them. it took them 7 years, but indeed, they finally did manage to do a pretty decent job of it for once. mercy monk actually manages to do decent damage and have a subclass that legitimately adds to the things you already do as a monk without expecting you to spend all your ki on the subclass. so I'll give you that. mercy monk is not bad.

[KorvinStarmast]

Encounter difficulty ranged from "trivial" to "ball busting" and several that should probably have been easier trended towards the latter because the Rogue was a useless POS most of the time. By choice, in most cases "for roleplay".

*Facepalm* Sorry to hear that, rogue should have been able to help you melt down enemies sometimes. Did the cleric hide behind you?

Later, I played a Sun Soul Monk under a different DM from levels...5 to 9 or so? Seemed fine. Still very ki intensive but at least it felt like every use of Ki had OOMPH for the most part. And it had a free, reliable ranged attack option.

One of the things I like a lot about sun soul is that ranged attack.

[Sorinth]

Agree completely, but it's a real problem.

I have had this happen multiple times, with multiple DMs. It is a real downside to using PAM/CBE over other weapons (a non-polearm weapon where you can apply GWM or an enchanted longbow is far more likely to crop up). That said, if you're not using a PAM or CBE Fighter, you're probably going to find some relevant magic weapon in fairly short order if using a published adventure or the DMG treasure tables.

Maybe I misunderstood but wasn't your point that monks suffer more then other classes when using random drops? It's the complete opposite, other classes suffer way more if the only magic items they get come from random drops. Yes the S+B fighter doesn't care if the magic weapon they find is a longsword, battleaxe, etc... even dropping to a 1d6 weapon isn't a huge impact. But the S+B Fighter is almost never used as the comparison point. People want to show monks suck so they use GWM+PAM.

It's not something that shows up in these DPR comparisons but the simple fact is monks will deal their DPR in a more reliable fashion.

[Frogreaver]

you mean apart from all the people who've been saying that monks are a resource-based class and it's not reasonable that they should be compared to fighters and rogues in damage?

No one is saying monks shouldn't be compared to Fighters and Rogues though. The precise claim is that Monks get alot more resources than Fighters/Rogues/Barbarians/Paladins/etc (other martials). Thus, it's not an unreasonable expectation that monks would have to spend some of their resources to do what these classes can do without. I mean that's basic game design stuff - when 2 classes are in roughly the same category (martial in this case) the class with lots of resources should not normally be able to match what the class with less resources can do without those resources.

simply put: I am putting forward two separate sets of points against two separate sets of arguments. when I compare to spellcasters, it is because I am simply making it plain that monks are not a good resource-using class either. I am not using those points to address their damage problems at all.

But no martial should ever be compared to full casters except possibly in the daily single target damage department. It's like comparing an orange to a Volkswagen.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not something that shows up in these DPR comparisons but the simple fact is monks will deal their DPR in a more reliable fashion.

THough it's a bit risky due to CON scores often being high on monsters, and CON saves being more often passed, stun lock (two rounds in a row where a blow lands that successfully stuns) means that the Monk can make six attacks without using any more ki, all of which have advantage. To hit chances go up, crit chances go up, and if anyone else in the party is free to attack the creature their attacks are at advantage. (And if that's a rogue, this gets even better!). That's one of the risk/reward for burning a ki point. The other ki point (flurry) is one added attack with unarmed strike, but there's no save against it.

Risk/Reward. (If the team cleric has cast bane on the creature, this becomes an even more attractive prospect, though).

[Segev]

I want an answer to the question. How is your 13th level monk "doing fine in overall contribution"? It doesn't have to be all about damage, I recognize that. Is is supporting other party members, providing noncombat utility, mitigating incoming damage, what? Don't just aggressively spout generalities at people. What is the monk doing, in-combat or out, that you feel is providing an impact.

I am playing a rogue 1/shadow monk 6/ranger 1 in a game, and he's contributed as a mighty stealth character since level 4 (when he got into shadow monk). Pass without trace has made it nearly impossible to see him scouting, and made him invaluable in getting the party into position for surprise attacks that we've planned out. Darkness - the DM uses ink blot rules - on cannon balls has blinded enemy ships' gunners. And he's been perfectly decent in fights, even when he hasn't been using his main combat trick of grappling (he's more Strength than Dex). He had what amounted to an unbreakable rapier as his dedicated weapon early on so he could trigger martial arts off of attacks with it and still be using a technically magical weapon. Still uses it because his martial arts die is lower than a d8.

Shadow Step has been invaluable in sneaking around; as long as it's dim or dark and he can see through a window, keyhole, or under a door frame, he can slip in somewhere without even needing to pick the lock.

PAM, GWM, Piercer/Crusher/Slasher, Martial Adept, Savage Attacker, fighting initiate
Elven Accuracy, CBE, Sharpshooter, Piercer, Martial Adept, fighting initiate
Am i missing anything?

You could give monk a decent damage feat is what you could do. Right now Mobile is just about their best choice for feats, maybe defensive duelist? Getting a fighting style is about the best damage increase theyre looking at from feats.

How about...

Block Breaker
You have learned to use martial arts techniques to break through even the hardest of materials.

• You gain a martial arts die of 1d4. If you have a martial arts die from another source, it instead increases by one die size (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, and d10 to d12). You may use this instead of the normal damage die when attacking with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike.
• You gain 2 ki. This ki stacks with any you have from any other source. It replenishes when you complete a short or long rest.
• You may spend 1 ki when making an attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike to make the attack count as magical, and to deal full damage to objects and ignore their damage thresholds.

[Dork_Forge]

- uncanny dodge doesn't interfere with a rogue's baseline damage at all. it's a reaction. with that said, it sounds like you *meant* to say cunning action, and I'll continue on that front. simply put, most of the rogue's damage comes from sneak attack dice. they can achieve pretty near full damage with either a ranged or melee attack, no problem. the rogue is perfectly capable of simply shooting an enemy that is out of range for a melee attack, with no need to rely on cunning action (although they certainly do have it available). unarmored movement is not necessary; just shoot the enemy (unless hiding is impossible and there are no allies nearby, but then, the monk should also not be charging ahead of the rest of the party to fight solo either, whether they have faster movement or not).

Yes I mispoke, I meant Cunning Action.

So... You're not even comparing abilities you're saying the Rogue doesn't need to depend on a bonus for their full DPR?

What you're missing there is that the Rogue is dependent on landing a single attack, whilst meeting a list of criteria to get their DPR. A Monk that uses their bonus on something else still has two attacks with their action to get some damage or a stun attempt out. The Rogue does not come offer strictly better in this comparison, it's easy for a Rogue to do zero damage, or standard weapon damage.

- other classes don't have to make choices on anywhere near the same level. bardic inspiration is a small fraction of what a bard does. it's a very *nice* small fraction, but it gets heaped on top of a full serving of spellcasting, which as I've already pointed out gives them vastly more resources than monk gets in the vast majority of plausible scenarios.

Bardic Inspiration is the main feature that makes you a Bard and fuels your subclass. You've spent this entire time complaining how a Monk needs Ki to do Monk things (which sorry, no they don't) but a Bard having to choose whether to be a Bard or use their subclass isn't a problem? That doesn't really track.

- most of those level 1 damage spells were *always* pretty useless on a wizard anyways. you probably want one of either burning hands or thunderwave (depending on whether you wanted the knockback or the damage more). with that said, seeing as a wizard can potentially get all the spells anyways, no big deal. clerics and druids don't have to give up anything to know all of their level 1 spells. bards, warlocks and sorcerers can change them out as if they never knew them. not really seeing the problem with level 1 damage spells "aging out". the only class where that has *any* impact whatsoever is a class that has unlimited capacity for learning spells.

Always pretty useless? I must ahve imagined the times those spells were extremely valuable in games like LMoP then...

You said spells don't devalue, I pointed towards damage spells and now you're making excuses why them devaluing doesn't matter.

Known casters swap out their spells one spell at a time, on level up. It's not a quick process if you invested your spells known in doing what you want in earlier levels.

- no, the hypothetical actual level 11 ability, mass suggestion, is potentially hitting 12 enemies and no allies. if you're fighting things that run away when you fireball them at level 11, it probably wasn't much of a fight to begin with, but I suppose that is also possible. not a bad use of a level 3 spell slot, really. this isn't about area effect, it's about the supposed superiority that monks enjoy in crowd control because of stunning blow. it isn't terrible, but compared to a class that *actually* gets *real* crowd control it very quickly falls behind.

So you spoke about Fireball, then directly lead into enemies running away without mentioning mass suggestion, or that any spell other than Fireball was being used, got it.

In one of the parties I DM there's a Glamour Bard, and at least 5 times he has tried to use influencing magic in this campaign and it's just straight up not worked. Why you might ask? There's simply too many avenues for failure:

- Succeeding the throw

- Being immune to, or having advantage against charms/magic effects in general

-The course of action you suggest being directly harmful to them, be it because it'd open them up to the party murdering them or disobeying would lead to their execution by their leader

- And one that comes up a fair bit, the monsters just don't understand you.

- oh hey look, even more ways the monk can spend ki even faster and not be able to function! well, that's definitely what monks need and certainly isn't a slap in the face compared to eldritch knight and arcane trickster, both of which give access to more spells and ADD the resources to use them instead of expecting you to give up being a monk so that you can have a subclass. but hey, why don't we just add on top of that the option to not only spend your ki to accomplish anything and everything you want to do, how about we also call for them to drop their damage down so low that it's close to no-subclass-wizard levels?

Okay enough of this, a Monk has a raft of passive/at will abilities in their core chassis that I believe were listed above by ThunderousMojo, not having Ki doesn't mean you stop being a Monk. That's not even counting at will subclass abilities.

What you just did is akin to saying about a spellcaster, oh look moreways to spend slots so they can't function! They're alternative things to do, which could very well be better than just blindly swinging at the nearest thing in front of you.

You also seem to be utterly ignoring at will or independent resource subclass abilities.

I mean, really? you think self-healing and dodging is going to face-tank anything? maybe if you're fighting something that is literally as dumb as rocks (like unattended golems), but against any remotely intelligent foe, they'll just ignore your monk. I mean, if you're just healing yourself and dodging, that's pretty much as clear a statement of "I can be safely ignored" that you could make. or, you can fear everything within 30 feet. except that by everything, I mean everything, like your allies. I bet that couldn't go terribly wrong! or dealing a single attack worth of damage to multiple enemies, oh boy that sounds amazing, almost like a fireball except with one quarter of the damage and instead of save for half it's just a straight up miss. wow, so useful! and you only had to go through every single subclass of monk to find a handful of useful options!

A lot, if not most, monsters will hit the hostile in front of them, but to clarify you're not walking up to them and doing nothing. At that point why would you be injured to begin with? You get in their face and start slapping them around, possibly even stunning them. Once they start to focus on you, you heal up and dodge to give them a hard target. They try to move away from you? OA stun.

Yes the Fear has a chance of friendly fire, it's a good thing that players and PCs are able to communicate so that they can work to each other's strengths. It'd be real awkward if the Monk player started randomly fearing both sides for no reason after all.

And with the chance to stun and the point is to draw aggro, good thing it didn't take an entire 3rd level slot and friendly fire everyone liek you seem to assume happens with PC abilities!

There's many options available in general in the Monk, my point was to highlight that they have those options, whereas you were just writing off the class.

but at least with mercy monk, we finally did actually get to a point where there's a monk subclass that isn't built like crap, where you don't have to blow through all your ki just to activate your subclass abilities while ignoring your class abilities because you can no longer afford to use them. it took them 7 years, but indeed, they finally did manage to do a pretty decent job of it for once. mercy monk actually manages to do decent damage and have a subclass that legitimately adds to the things you already do as a monk without expecting you to spend all your ki on the subclass. so I'll give you that. mercy monk is not bad.

I have no idea what you're talking about anymore, the Mercy Monk heavily piggybacks on Flurry, like several other subclasses.

And again with feeling: There's a lot of subclass abilities that are at will.

I played an Open Hand Monk from levels 1 to 8 until they died, in the adventure path (or whatever 5e calls them) Out of the Abyss.

My other party members were an Archer Rogue, a Bard, and a...Cleric I believe? Maybe Druid, because it's what she'd played in the previous campaign and she may have wanted the same character for the new one. It's been a while.

I was the only frontliner.

The maximum amount of Ki I had available at any one time was 8, right before I died. I was essentially expected to be the primary damage role and tank.

This means Flurry was a necessity in most combats.

In the first few levels this was fine. Getting 3 attacks when everyone else was getting 1 is great, and tended to end combats quickly.

As the game went on, it became less impressive. Particularly as, has been mentioned, not every class has a particular use for Short Rests, save to heal. Since I was getting the **** kicked out of me every combat, being the only person in easy attack range, I did end up getting plenty of Short Rests, but at some point something's gotta give. I died, re-rolled as a Quaggoth Barbarian (taking over an NPC from the AP, Prince Derendil) and eventually kinda got sick of 5e as a whole for a good while and dropped out.

Encounter difficulty ranged from "trivial" to "ball busting" and several that should probably have been easier trended towards the latter because the Rogue was a useless POS most of the time. By choice, in most cases "for roleplay".

Later, I played a Sun Soul Monk under a different DM from levels...5 to 9 or so? Seemed fine. Still very ki intensive but at least it felt like every use of Ki had OOMPH for the most part. And it had a free, reliable ranged attack option.

This really seems like a party problem tbh, a Monk can certainly hold the front lines, but you'd really need to build for it instead of fall into that roll.

I'm not sure why you'd ever have trouble convincing them to short rest, CD/Wildshape is a SR resource and Bardic Inspiration becomes one at 5th, the only one I can see posing resistance is the Rogue that seems problematic.

I will throw out there though that with two PCs that potentially had access to healing magic, there was no real reason for you to die outside of massive damage if they still had slots left.

You didn't find being a Monk advantageous in the beginning when everyone was hurting for equipment? Or the self heal useful for keeping yourself alive?

[Kane0]

How about...

Block Breaker
You have learned to use martial arts techniques to break through even the hardest of materials.

• You gain a martial arts die of 1d4. If you have a martial arts die from another source, it instead increases by one die size (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, and d10 to d12). You may use this instead of the normal damage die when attacking with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike.
• You gain 2 ki. This ki stacks with any you have from any other source. It replenishes when you complete a short or long rest.
• You may spend 1 ki when making an attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike to make the attack count as magical, and to deal full damage to objects and ignore their damage thresholds.

Hmm not bad. The die increase is only +1 average per hit but its better than nothing. 2 Ki is also helpful but doesnt add any new way to output damage faster than monks aready do, and unfortunately the last point is largely useless on a monk after level 6.

[mr_stibbons]

Yes I mispoke, I meant Cunning Action.

Bardic Inspiration is the main feature that makes you a Bard and fuels your subclass. You've spent this entire time complaining how a Monk needs Ki to do Monk things (which sorry, no they don't) but a Bard having to choose whether to be a Bard or use their subclass isn't a problem? That doesn't really track.

Always pretty useless? I must ahve imagined the times those spells were extremely valuable in games like LMoP then...

You said spells don't devalue, I pointed towards damage spells and now you're making excuses why them devaluing doesn't matter.

Known casters swap out their spells one spell at a time, on level up. It's not a quick process if you invested your spells known in doing what you want in earlier levels.

So you spoke about Fireball, then directly lead into enemies running away without mentioning mass suggestion, or that any spell other than Fireball was being used, got it.

In one of the parties I DM there's a Glamour Bard, and at least 5 times he has tried to use influencing magic in this campaign and it's just straight up not worked. Why you might ask? There's simply too many avenues for failure:

- Succeeding the throw

- Being immune to, or having advantage against charms/magic effects in general

-The course of action you suggest being directly harmful to them, be it because it'd open them up to the party murdering them or disobeying would lead to their execution by their leader

- And one that comes up a fair bit, the monsters just don't understand you.

Okay enough of this, a Monk has a raft of passive/at will abilities in their core chassis that I believe were listed above by ThunderousMojo, not having Ki doesn't mean you stop being a Monk. That's not even counting at will subclass abilities.

What you just did is akin to saying about a spellcaster, oh look moreways to spend slots so they can't function! They're alternative things to do, which could very well be better than just blindly swinging at the nearest thing in front of you.

You also seem to be utterly ignoring at will or independent resource subclass abilities.

A lot, if not most, monsters will hit the hostile in front of them, but to clarify you're not walking up to them and doing nothing. At that point why would you be injured to begin with? You get in their face and start slapping them around, possibly even stunning them. Once they start to focus on you, you heal up and dodge to give them a hard target. They try to move away from you? OA stun.

Yes the Fear has a chance of friendly fire, it's a good thing that players and PCs are able to communicate so that they can work to each other's strengths. It'd be real awkward if the Monk player started randomly fearing both sides for no reason after all.

And with the chance to stun and the point is to draw aggro, good thing it didn't take an entire 3rd level slot and friendly fire everyone liek you seem to assume happens with PC abilities!

There's many options available in general in the Monk, my point was to highlight that they have those options, whereas you were just writing off the class.

Lol, a bard without inspiration dice is still a full caster with the bard spell list and great skills. Inspiration die are nice, but they aren't the majority of the classes power. You can be quite effective even when you're out. Comparing them to a monk out of Ki is laughable.

Also, have you considered you're just bad at picking your spells? Going too heavy on low level damage spells or picking more concentration spells than you can actually cast in a day are rookie mistakes. You need to make sure to pick up some low level spells that scale well ahead of time, like shield or grease, not just maximizing your entire spell list for level 1 power. Spells can fall off, but a caster doesn't have spells, they have spell slots. Spell slots stay valuable if you pick your spells well

With suggestion that seems to be a mix of the player being inexperienced with those type of spells (casting it on creatures he doesn't share a language with) and you taking an incredibly harsh interpretation of "obviously harmful act". None of the examples on that spell involve the effected creature making assumptions about what other creatures do in response to the command, only self harm directly caused by that action.

As for the raft of passive abilities, the main complaint is that many of them are situational defences. They are very effective against specific threats, and non of them are do much against an orc trying the hit you with a great axe, the most common type of threat in the game(melee attacks doing B/P/S damage, to be clear). People get salty, because it's not that hard to not run into the specific threats these abilities defend against for 3-4 levels in a row. Archers are surprisingly scarce in the MM, usually only as backup weapons on melee fighters, and not all casters are going to toss fireballs or other dex saves at your face, poison damage might be the most common type of damage in the game, but its very concentrated is specific biomes and groups of enemies. So you do end up running into next to no enemies that could even trigger your special defences, and if you do they have an tendency to quickly learn to not target you with those effects. Then that raft of passive abilities is not seriously impacting combat.

And frankly, stillness of mind doesn't feel great even when you do run into charmed/frightened effects.

Also, what monk subclass has an independent resource supply? The one heal per day open hand gets?

[Kane0]

-Snip-

-Snip-

-Snip-

I created a thread bouncing from this one, would be happy to hear more input!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e-class-tweaks

[Thunderous Mojo]

Also, have you considered you're just bad at picking your spells?

Spoiler

Show

http://www.survivinggrady.com/wp-con...tay-Classy.jpg

As for the raft of passive abilities, the main complaint is that many of them are situational defences. They are very effective against specific threats, and non of them are do much against an orc trying the hit you with a great axe, the most common type of threat in the game(melee attacks doing B/P/S damage, to be clear)

Failing Damage, Poison Damage, and Disease are all also common.

Every Human on the planet alive today, I imagine, would absolutely love to be immune to poison and disease, right now.

Reflex Saving Throws... also very common.
Getting a Bonus Action attack from level 1...not so common.

Every Orc in the 5e Monster Manual has a ranged weapon or a melee weapon that can be used at range. Nothing is stopping an Orc from using their Aggressive Trait to move closer to an enemy, throwing a javelin, and then use their normal movement to close back to their ranks.

..Archers are surprisingly scarce in the MM, usually only as backup weapons on melee fighters,

As a DM, I am not concerned in the least if someone looks up the statistics of a monster, (figuring out what you are fighting is part of the fun)....but as a DM I find sentiments similar to this to be the worst type of Meta-gaming.

If you want to bet your life on the the hypothesis that no Orc, (or any other creature) will ever be encountered with weapons, spells, or other stat block aspects that differ from the books....then I wish you:

Good Luck! Be Well and Good Gaming to You! ✌️🍻

[mr_stibbons]

Failing Damage, Poison Damage, and Disease are all also common.

Every Human on the planet alive today, I imagine, would absolutely love to be immune to poison and disease, right now.

Reflex Saving Throws... also very common.

Getting a Bonus Action attack from level 1...not so common.

{scrubbed}. Sure reflex saves and poison are "common", but that doesn't mean any of them are actually going to show up in any given adventure. They aren't a tenth as common as physical melee damage, and long stretches' of game can go by without any of them targeting a monk PC. That goes double if the GM is openly or subconsciously playing around your immunities, which regretfully can happen.

Fall damage is pretty DM dependent. I've personally been in games from lv 1-9 where you could count on one hand the number of times anyone in the party took falling damage.

And "people in the real world would love this ability" is not a relevant argument about the utility of a game ability. Stop wasting peoples time with these pointless arguments

Every Orc in the 5e Monster Manual has a ranged weapon or a melee weapon that can be used at range. Nothing is stopping an Orc from using their Aggressive Trait to move closer to an enemy, throwing a javelin, and then use their normal movement to close back to their ranks.

As a DM, I am not concerned in the least if someone looks up the statistics of a monster, (figuring out what you are fighting is part of the fun)....but as a DM I find sentiments similar to this to be the worst type of Meta-gaming.

If you want to bet your life on the the hypothesis that no Orc, (or any other creature) will ever be encountered with weapons, spells, or other stat block aspects that differ from the books....then I wish you:

Good Luck! Be Well and Good Gaming to You! ✌️🍻

I'm not betting my life that all monsters are going to show up exactly as they are in published material. I am betting that any given GM is extremely unlikely to have a) homebrewed the majority of the monsters used in their games and b) homebrewed said monsters in a way that breaks with established trends of the published materials. So no, I don't see any problems judging the utility of class abilities based on the trends among monster abilities that I am aware of. So yes, I am comfortable saying stuff like dedicated archers are surprisingly rare, poison is a bad damage type to do because resistances and immunities are common and vulnerability is rare, radiant is a good damage type for the opposite reasons. I wouldn't consider that meta-gaming, just what any player who played long enough would start to pick up on from experience. Any trend has exceptions, after all.

I'd be way more annoyed if a player at the table started spouting the exact stats of a monster, even a common one. But opinions vary.

[Rynjin]

This really seems like a party problem tbh, a Monk can certainly hold the front lines, but you'd really need to build for it instead of fall into that roll.

Problem is, I'm pretty sure you can't build for it at all as a single classed Open Hand Monk. Long Death, maybe, but its abilities are dreadfully boring.

And at the point where you're like, dipping out of Monk at level 3 to become a Barbarian or whatever, you're not a Monk anymore.

I'm not sure why you'd ever have trouble convincing them to short rest, CD/Wildshape is a SR resource and Bardic Inspiration becomes one at 5th, the only one I can see posing resistance is the Rogue that seems problematic.

I didn't, as mentioned, have an issue convincing them to rest when needed.

I will throw out there though that with two PCs that potentially had access to healing magic, there was no real reason for you to die outside of massive damage if they still had slots left.

I got clapped pretty hard, I don't remember by what. But it's not like everybody prepared healing spells in every spell slot, and I don't blame them for not doing so.

You didn't find being a Monk advantageous in the beginning when everyone was hurting for equipment? Or the self heal useful for keeping yourself alive?

From levels 1-3? Sure having unarmed strikes is great. Even if they start at d4 for some ungodly reason.

After that point, people stop "hurting for equipment" and start "benefiting from equipment you cannot", like magic weapons.

The self-heal is such a drop in the bucket thing at most levels it's not really worth talking about in terms of sustain. Once per day you can heal 18-24 damage. Neat, I guess. That removes the damage taken from a single encounter. Maybe. It's too slow to use IN combat in most cases as well.