OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Yendor]

If Hilgya's argument worked, wouldn't there be a huge incentive for Loki to seek dwarven followers, rather than having almost no presence in dwarven lands? His attitude looks like he ignores the dwarves because the intersection between people that would follow him and the people that would die honourably is very small.

[The MunchKING]

If Hilgya's argument worked, wouldn't there be a huge incentive for Loki to seek dwarven followers, rather than having almost no presence in dwarven lands? His attitude looks like he ignores the dwarves because the intersection between people that would follow him and the people that would die honourably is very small.

I always read it as he can't/isn't allowed to visit the Dwarves and give them this revelation, which is why he needs a Hilgya cleric to go spread this gospel. Probably he missed his chance at the beginning when they were establishing lore about the Northern Pantheon to make it look like the bet wasn't a double play by him, and Thor took the opportunity to tell them about the Bet. So he's been waiting for a Hilgya to come along. Especially as her logic mostly works for Clerics of Loki, not just ordinary followers.

"Nothing more honorable for a cleric than living your god's truth." emphasis mine.

[Vikenlugaid]

Why will new clerics know that? We've got plenty of people IN THIS THREAD willing to believe an obviously delusional character because "she must know better", so the new clerics believe the old clerics, they accept the same arguments YOU ARE GIVING.

No actual reward is ever needed given suckers who'll accept the existence of a reward on faith.

And in any case, you still get the power in THIS life, you are at worst no worse off than any other dead evil guy, so why not be a cleric of an evil god? What exactly is the downside when you're an evil person?

New cleric doesn't need to believe the word of the old ones, they have spells to know the truth by themselfs.

[Vikenlugaid]

If Hilgya's argument worked, wouldn't there be a huge incentive for Loki to seek dwarven followers, rather than having almost no presence in dwarven lands? His attitude looks like he ignores the dwarves because the intersection between people that would follow him and the people that would die honourably is very small.

Then he would be a terrible dad.

[georgie_leech]

Nah, I can see how that could be read. My fault for not writing it better.

In fairness, eternity in an awful queue a la Futurama's Central Bureaucracy would be a pretty... good isn't the right word... apropos afterlife for LE.

[Yendor]

Then he would be a terrible dad.

Ask Hel what she thinks of his parenting skills.

[Vikenlugaid]

Ask Hel what she thinks of his parenting skills.

Hel doesn't know. Loki would have sided with her if it wasn't for the thing with the Dark one and the snarl. He actually care about her, and hate Thor. He doesn't want her dead, which could totally happens if he evangeliced the dwarves.

[Peelee]

In fairness, eternity in an awful queue a la Futurama's Central Bureaucracy would be a pretty... good isn't the right word... apropos afterlife for LE.

You are technically cortect. The best kind of correct! Maybe that's how Mechanus works out for 'em.

Hel doesn't know. Loki would have sided with her if it wasn't for the thing with the Dark one and the snarl. He actually care about her, and hate Thor. He doesn't want her dead, which could totally happens if he evangeliced the dwarves.

I'm sure that's a great comfort to her as she starves.

[Psyren]

Hel doesn't know. Loki would have sided with her if it wasn't for the thing with the Dark one and the snarl. He actually care about her, and hate Thor. He doesn't want her dead, which could totally happens if he evangeliced the dwarves.

If Hilgyas loophole only works for clerics of Loki then it's actually pretty brilliant for both Loki AND Hel. Encourage a bunch of dwarves to behave dishonorably, the ones who actually become clerics go join Loki for bottle service, the ones who stay in the laity are swindled go to "pumpkin." More dwarves skimmed off for the two of them, while the bulk get split among the other 16 as before.

And that's to say nothing of the clerics who fail to uphold his teachings and fall through the cracks.

[Vikenlugaid]

You are technically cortect. The best kind of correct! Maybe that's how Mechanus works out for 'em.


I'm sure that's a great comfort to her as she starves.

That's is like saying is better to die in the war than survive and have hunger after.
And I dont think she really starve that much, if dwarves who died by accident, or growing old, or disease, go to Hel even if they are good, she should have enough souls.

[Peelee]

That's is like saying is better to die in the war than survive and have hunger after.
And I dont think she really starve that much, if dwarves who died by accident, or growing old, or disease, go to Hel even if they are good, she should have enough souls.

Hel being displeased with Loki's parenting job, specifically due to the bet: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html

Loki seriously suspecting she won't survive a transition between worlds, specifically due to the bet: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html

If you want to continue believing that she doesn't think he's a terrible dad, and also that she's more or less fine except being hungry, feel free.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Hilgyas loophole only works for clerics of Loki then it's actually pretty brilliant for both Loki AND Hel. Encourage a bunch of dwarves to behave dishonorably, the ones who actually become clerics go join Loki for bottle service, the ones who stay in the laity are swindled go to "pumpkin." More dwarves skimmed off for the two of them, while the bulk get split among the other 16 as before.

And that's to say nothing of the clerics who fail to uphold his teachings and fall through the cracks.

And everyone gets a share! (Milo Minderbender; Catch-22)

[Dion]

And everyone gets a share! (Milo Minderbender; Catch-22)

The thing I loved best about Milo Minderbender was how he earnestly believed what he was selling.

Even when he was selling chocolate covered cotton.

Wait, what does this have to do with Hilgya?

[dmc91356]

I fully support any deviation into Catch-22 as a perfectly valid alternative to Star Wars.

[KorvinStarmast]

I fully support any deviation into Catch-22 as a perfectly valid alternative to Star Wars.

It's the first movie I remember seeing Martin Sheen in. (Dobbs was his character).

[Liquor Box]

She laid out her reasons to not let the paladins interfere, and they didn't include "my defences will do the trick", which suggests this was not something she thought. Serini said "No more conflict means no more chance of the gate being destroyed either accidently or as some sort of misguided sacrifice", she didn't say "if you weren't here you couldn't compromise my defences". While she didn't explicitly say that she wasn't banking on her defences, she did all but.

As you point out, this means that would have been a good idea to let the paladins interfere - they create another line of defence. Which is essentially my main point.

Can I ask again - what is there in the comic which you think indicates Serini is reliant on her defences?

Just noticed another comment from Serini which I think suggests that she doesn't have much confidence in her defences. That is her final comment in 1189, where she says existing was fun well it lasted. That's not consistent with her thinking her defences would turn Xykon away, and is consistent with her thinking Xykon would prevail against her defences.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just noticed another comment from Serini which I think suggests that she doesn't have much confidence in her defences.

Yeah. But she's not going to let (what she sees as) disaster happen without a fight.

[Psyren]

Just noticed another comment from Serini which I think suggests that she doesn't have much confidence in her defences. That is her final comment in 1189, where she says existing was fun well it lasted. That's not consistent with her thinking her defences would turn Xykon away, and is consistent with her thinking Xykon would prevail against her defences.

It probably speaks more to her confidence in her abilities to stop the Gate from getting destroyed. I don't think she yet knows that a victory by Xykon will lead just as directly to the end of existence as the good guys keeping him from winning would. So it's something more like "I've stopped these two paladins, but clearly heroes know where the final Gate is and I can't move it, so one of them is going to get through and break it eventually."

(Granted, putting treasure in her dungeon probably isn't helping matters.)

[danielxcutter]

I suspect they aren't actually "her" dungeons and the traps just reroute people to a bunch of random dungeons across the Material. Otherwise, how'd they have items?

[Metastachydium]

I suspect they aren't actually "her" dungeons and the traps just reroute people to a bunch of random dungeons across the Material. Otherwise, how'd they have items?

That's just the way of things.

[Peelee]

It probably speaks more to her confidence in her abilities to stop the Gate from getting destroyed. I don't think she yet knows that a victory by Xykon will lead just as directly to the end of existence as the good guys keeping him from winning would. So it's something more like "I've stopped these two paladins, but clearly heroes know where the final Gate is and I can't move it, so one of them is going to get through and break it eventually."

That's the exact thing I was planning to say!

[The MunchKING]

(Granted, putting treasure in her dungeon probably isn't helping matters.)

Maybe they were supposed to be weapons caches for her or her more intelligent monsters, in case they ran out of consumable gear. It's only "treasure in a dungeon" because someone else is stealing it.

[Psyren]

I suspect they aren't actually "her" dungeons and the traps just reroute people to a bunch of random dungeons across the Material. Otherwise, how'd they have items?

A bunch of random dungeons on the Material... that all also happen to be made of multidimensional stone? And are all capable of challenging an epic level party?

Not impossible, but strains credulity.

That's the exact thing I was planning to say!

I suspect however that you wouldn't agree with my conclusion that "teaming up with the most powerful and successful heroes to come along is a better decision than stalling indefinitely while Team Evil gets stronger."

Maybe they were supposed to be weapons caches for her or her more intelligent monsters, in case they ran out of consumable gear. It's only "treasure in a dungeon" because someone else is stealing it.

Seems to me that using monsters that don't need gear at all would be the ideal approach.

[Peelee]

I suspect however that you wouldn't agree with my conclusion that "teaming up with the most powerful and successful heroes to come along is a better decision than stalling indefinitely while Team Evil gets stronger."

I totally agree with that assessment. To the best of my knowledge, I never indicated that I didn't.

[The MunchKING]

Seems to me that using monsters that don't need gear at all would be the ideal approach.

Any monster that doesn't use gear can be made stronger by giving it gear, QED.

[Psyren]

Any monster that doesn't use gear can be made stronger by giving it gear, QED.

You could do that with templates or advancement too, and those can't be looted by their killers. Put the monsters on a treadmill, feed them drugs, get ethically dubious mages to experiment on them, anything but giving them wearable items - especially custom ones!

[danielxcutter]

I mean like, heck, even the Draketooth Pyramid had traps that buffed the summoned monsters.

[hungrycrow]

So, weird theory that probably isn't true: all the loot in the fake dungeons is sabotaged. Cursed items exist in dnd, and we've seen from Malack's Mass Death Ward that codewords can be built into magic. So Serini could give intruders a ring of immunity to fire, for example, and then when they get to the real dungeon, shut it off right as they confidently walk through a pit of lava.

[Psyren]

If she fooled Xykon with cursed boots then I'll definitely offer up an apology. He's usually savvy on the magic item front though.

[Bacon Elemental]

Maybe the reason its full of loot isn't because Serini used her precious money to leave extremely valuable things lying around, but because theyre owned by the monsters inside?