Spotting the orc right in front of you.

[Emperor Demonking]

Is it true that if you have no ranks in spot, 6 or lower wisom score and you roll a natural 1 you can't see a non hiding orc, or anything else.

[Matthew]

Is it true that if you have no ranks in spot, 6 or lower wisom score and you roll a natural 1 you can't see a non hiding orc, or anything else.

No, it's not true. You don't make Spot Checks to see, you make them to notice hidden or obscured things. Also, a 'natural' 1 makes no difference to anything. If your DM did call for a Spot Check to notice the Orc right in front of your character, he'd better be using Circumstance Modifiers or have a good reason why your character didn't notice him.

[Emperor Demonking]

Its not the natural 1, its the net finish of -1.

[KIDS]

The DC for something in plain sight is something like -20, not 0. There is really no justifiable reason for not seeing the said orc.

[Green Bean]

You only make Spot checks for concealed (or otherwise difficult to see) objects or creatures. No hiding, no Spot check.

[Matthew]

The DC for something in plain sight is something like -20, not 0. There is really no justifiable reason for not seeing the said orc.

Actually... in the example 'difficulty' section the PHB suggests 0 as the difficulty of seeing something in plain sight. It's the primary cause of the misconception that Spot must be checked in order for a character to be able to see.

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, that and the idea that there ought to actually be a skill involved in spotting things that aren't hiding, under some circumstances (distance, particularly) and it would seem that it should be spot.

Making that produce non-stupid results probably requires more than just assigning a negative base DC though.

[....]

If you had to make a spot check to see anything than most half-orc barbarians would be blind.

[Setra]

Many people who could be considered spacey (Low Wis?) might think "Oh where did Shelly go?" when Shelly is right in front of her.

I'd think not seeing an orc if you got a -1 is possible.

I mean how many people have lost items they were holding? Similar concept.

But chances are you'd never have to roll to see an Orc in plain sight anyways.

[brian c]

Hm...

1 Wisdom = -5 modifier
Inattentive flaw = -4
Nearsighted trait = -2
Absentminded trait = -1 (a few other traits give -1 spot, but you can only take 2)

Total Spot Modifier: -12

Can anyone beat that? With that character, on average (roll 10 on d20) you can't see something "in plain sight" (DC 0 spot).

[Xefas]

Hm...

1 Wisdom = -5 modifier
Inattentive flaw = -4
Nearsighted trait = -2
Absentminded trait = -1 (a few other traits give -1 spot, but you can only take 2)

Total Spot Modifier: -12

Can anyone beat that? With that character, on average (roll 10 on d20) you can't see something "in plain sight" (DC 0 spot).

Steve
Steve has a Dagger
He gouges out his own eyes.
What's the spot penalty for being blind?

[wgabrie]

Steve
Steve has a Dagger
He gouges out his own eyes.
What's the spot penalty for being blind?

This is what blinded does:

Blinded

... All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

[Epic_Wizard]

Someone with really bad vision would probably be the equivalent of the somewhat spacey professor with coke bottle glasses. While he could probably tell that there was SOMETHING in front of him he might not be able to tell exactly what it was.

Here is an interesting thought. A character with bad vision like that but with permanent True Seeing or Arcane Sight. Could make roll playing interesting when the party Wizard can only describe the bad guy in terms of his magic items' auras.

[Idea Man]

It is true that if they aren't hiding, you don't even need to spot, although treating it like hearing a battle would be fair (DC -10), if you had a reason to do so. Only thing I could think of that might give you a big enough penalty to fail that, without just making you blind, of course, would be a greater curse, which would hardly be worth it.

Let me try another scenario. You've got a druid wild shaped into a tiny snake, hiding a short distance (say, 80 ft.) from the adventurers. He has size (+8), racial (indigenous snake, +4) modifiers, and partial concealment behind a low ridge. Now he casts a spell. What would be the DC to spot him now, assuming he rolled a 10? Would it be like sniping, -20 to the check? What if the spell didn't track back directly to the druid, like with flame strike?

[brian c]

Steve
Steve has a Dagger
He gouges out his own eyes.
What's the spot penalty for being blind?

Aw, that's no fun. Auto-failing isn't the same as having a low modifier. I wanted to have a "lowest Spot modifier" challenge.

[Xefas]

You've got a druid wild shaped into a tiny snake, hiding a short distance (say, 80 ft.) from the adventurers. He has size (+8), racial (indigenous snake, +4) modifiers, and partial concealment behind a low ridge. Now he casts a spell. What would be the DC to spot him now, assuming he rolled a 10? Would it be like sniping, -20 to the check? What if the spell didn't track back directly to the druid, like with flame strike?

Assuming he has Natural Spell (and why wouldn't he?), so that he doesn't have to revert to human form to cast, I'd think stuff like Flame Strike wouldn't be traceable. Even if just for the fact that when fiery doodads come raining out of the sky at you, its not likely you'll be immediately searching for "the suspicious snake".

[vegetalss4]

i belive that if theres no track betwen the druid and the spell i would say, asuming we have all the relavant factors 22

oh and i agree with xefas. allowing them to roll would maybe tip them off

[Idea Man]

Well, if someone just cast a flame strike on you, wouldn't you look for them?

My bad, you meant the first time. They had to look for a hidden voice (invisible sorcerer), so I had an excuse. Sometimes, I'm too nice.

Sometimes.

[Mewtarthio]

Hm...

1 Wisdom = -5 modifier
Inattentive flaw = -4
Nearsighted trait = -2
Absentminded trait = -1 (a few other traits give -1 spot, but you can only take 2)

Total Spot Modifier: -12

Can anyone beat that? With that character, on average (roll 10 on d20) you can't see something "in plain sight" (DC 0 spot).

A wandering cleric of the God of Vanity and Pettiness (I think it's Hera, correct? Wait, never mind, all the Greek gods were like that) casts bestow curse on this guy because the god is upset that he doesn't notice people. That's another -4. Also, he's a kobold, and it's daytime, so that's another -1. Then we'll have a telepath manifest distract on him, giving him an additional -4.

In total, our unfortunate kobold has an additional -9 modifier from all this, for a total Spot modifier of -21. He is now effectively blind, except that poor eyesight is only responsible for -3 of that penalty. Heck, let's give the guy perfect eyesight (remove the dazzled effect and nearsighted trait) and cast a lullaby on him for a net effect of -2. Now he's still just as blind, but it's all because he's not paying attention: His eyes function perfectly, but his brain just isn't getting the signals.

[brian c]

A wandering cleric of the God of Vanity and Pettiness (I think it's Hera, correct? Wait, never mind, all the Greek gods were like that) casts bestow curse on this guy because the god is upset that he doesn't notice people. That's another -4. Also, he's a kobold, and it's daytime, so that's another -1. Then we'll have a telepath manifest distract on him, giving him an additional -4.

In total, our unfortunate kobold has an additional -9 modifier from all this, for a total Spot modifier of -21. He is now effectively blind, except that poor eyesight is only responsible for -3 of that penalty. Heck, let's give the guy perfect eyesight (remove the dazzled effect and nearsighted trait) and cast a lullaby on him for a net effect of -2. Now he's still just as blind, but it's all because he's not paying attention: His eyes function perfectly, but his brain just isn't getting the signals.

Nice. Btw, his Listen check is going to be nearly as bad, so he's just about as disconnected with his surroundings as he possibly could be, without having any physical damage to his sensory organs.

[KillianHawkeye]

Is it true that if you have no ranks in spot, 6 or lower wisom score and you roll a natural 1 you can't see a non hiding orc, or anything else.

If this happened, then the person is not very attentive and he was looking the wrong way at the time, so YES he does miss the orc casually standing 10 feet away.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Actually, you can't miss the orc. If he was looking in the other direction, then he'd make spot checks to turn around.
Once something is .5 closer then it was when the check was originally called for, you automatically see it.

ALSO, you folks are forgetting Rule Zero - Why would the DM have somebody not see something that's 20 feet away?

[Mewtarthio]

ALSO, you folks are forgetting Rule Zero - Why would the DM have somebody not see something that's 20 feet away?

Remember, most people can just take 10 to see something in front of them. In order to not see something in front of you, you need a nasty penalty to Spot, which means you're either blind or so impaired as to be incapable of interacting with the world around you.

[shadow_archmagi]

Interesting.. this kobold would be theoretically blind, but without the actual penalties for being, you know, BLIND. He would simply be totally oblivious.

"Steve, pull the lever!"
"Huh? What lever?"
"The RED one!"
"What red lever!"
"THAT ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!"
"Oooh, THAT lever."

[Shas aia Toriia]

Remember, most people can just take 10 to see something in front of them. In order to not see something in front of you, you need a nasty penalty to Spot, which means you're either blind or so impaired as to be incapable of interacting with the world around you.

Yes, but that's not the point of the topic. I answered the queston, no?

[hewhosaysfish]

Interesting.. this kobold would be theoretically blind, but without the actual penalties for being, you know, BLIND. He would simply be totally oblivious.

"Steve, pull the lever!"
"Huh? What lever?"
"The RED one!"
"What red lever!"
"THAT ONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!"
"Oooh, THAT lever."

What gate?

[Shas aia Toriia]

What gate?

Heh, I was thinking about taht when I read the post.

[de-trick]

I see no orc infront of me,
you shouldnt have to make a spot check to see something right infront of you, unless you have some kind of flaw

[Corlis]

I once walked into a street sign, but to be fair I don't have ranks in Spot, I have a Wis penalty, wasn't looking where I was going (I was walking into the wind), and the pole was Small sized. So I think I might miss an orc in the right circumstances.

[SadisticFishing]

Spotting is not "seeing", it's "noticing".

So it is possible to not notice an orc right in front of you if you have 6 wisdom.