Ideal Ultimate Evil

[DTemplar5]

I plan on running an Evil Overlord campagin where the PCs are Evil Overlords. To minimize the backstabing, I place in three things: a goal (world domination, which, why stop at one world?), a system of checks and balances (ie everyone is useful), and a force to, at least marginally, control them. I currently lack this force, and am looking for ideas on this. This force would be incapable of enacting plans on the world, and would require the PCs, but would be more than able to mess with the PCs for failure (or taking down a useful partner, like another PC that wasn't failing).

So, examples of an Ultimate Evil (and please, not the DPPDC)?

[Mojo_Rat]

Having everyone worship the same evil god probably helps alot as far as the force goes. Also If there is an existing social hierarchy that the PC's have to live under and if that social hierarchy is enforced then they PC's will have to work their backstabbing around that.

Also the number of players can Matter. One of the best games I had was 2 Cn Pcs and a CE Pc (mine) We largely had a mexican stand off going. Eseentially There were two stronger members and one weak member. However If anyone tried to backstab anyone else it was likely that the other two people would side with each other making it much harder. It ended up working well.

As the campaign expanded beyond the original 3 people we even would nominate new Pcs to the leader position then ignore them when things went right or blame them when things went wrong :) However none of this was planned so It just worked out that way.


One thing might help is to have the PC's write backgrounds ahead of time. they could then work out some of these details all along. Having smone everone agrees is leader helps alot as well. If you have 5 Pc's and they all want to be the head evil overlord its problematic to game continuity.

[DTemplar5]

Having everyone worship the same evil god probably helps alot as far as the force goes. Also If there is an existing social hierarchy that the PC's have to live under and if that social hierarchy is enforced then they PC's will have to work their backstabbing around that.

Also the number of players can Matter. One of the best games I had was 2 Cn Pcs and a CE Pc (mine) We largely had a mexican stand off going. Eseentially There were two stronger members and one weak member. However If anyone tried to backstab anyone else it was likely that the other two people would side with each other making it much harder. It ended up working well.

As the campaign expanded beyond the original 3 people we even would nominate new Pcs to the leader position then ignore them when things went right or blame them when things went wrong :) However none of this was planned so It just worked out that way.


One thing might help is to have the PC's write backgrounds ahead of time. they could then work out some of these details all along. Having smone everone agrees is leader helps alot as well. If you have 5 Pc's and they all want to be the head evil overlord its problematic to game continuity.

Your advice is not what I want (though it is good advice, it is advice that not need). I need ideas for an Ultimate Evil. Not suggestions on how to run an evil campaign.

Sorry if I come out as a bit snarky though; I'm wanting some brainstorming, not help on how to run something.

[Mewtarthio]

Hm... How about Asmodeus?

[DTemplar5]

Hm... How about Asmodeus?

A small step in the right direction; but he's a bit overused; and I prefer custom stuff rather than pre-written stuff.

[brian c]

An evil dragon, while not exactly innovative, could fit the bill pretty well. What level campaign is this? Unless the PCs are very high level and/or very optimized, a CR 26 or so dragon should keep them on their toes.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

It depends on exactly how intense we are talking. If you wanted you characters to fight the very idea of Evil, that's pretty much the Ultimate-est Evil one can find. It would also mean refraining from evil acts, such as lying, stealing, and killing. Good luck with them succeeding.
Alternately, an overzealous character makes a cool Ultimate Evil.

[DTemplar5]

An evil dragon, while not exactly innovative, could fit the bill pretty well. What level campaign is this? Unless the PCs are very high level and/or very optimized, a CR 26 or so dragon should keep them on their toes.

The PCs would be high level (18th, to be exact), but perhaps messing with the dragon a bit would help? That's a nice and simple step in the right direction.

It depends on exactly how intense we are talking. If you wanted you characters to fight the very idea of Evil, that's pretty much the Ultimate-est Evil one can find. It would also mean refraining from evil acts, such as lying, stealing, and killing. Good luck with them succeeding.
Alternately, an overzealous character makes a cool Ultimate Evil.

Evil Overlord Campaign = PC Evil characters, of the Evil Overlord persuasion. I wouldn't want them to shoot down half of their own alignment

[brian c]

The PCs would be high level (18th, to be exact), but perhaps messing with the dragon a bit would help? That's a nice and simple step in the right direction.

Dragon with class levels? Sorcerer is the obvious choice, or some PrC; not sure off the top of my head what a dragon could qualify for, but I'm sure there are a few. Should be able to get into Archmage, Loremaster maybe, and more outside of core.

Edit: or you could find some nice templates, but advancing spellcasting is probably the best way to go in terms of making it more powerful

[DTemplar5]

Dragon with class levels? Sorcerer is the obvious choice, or some PrC; not sure off the top of my head what a dragon could qualify for, but I'm sure there are a few. Should be able to get into Archmage, Loremaster maybe, and more outside of core.

Edit: or you could find some nice templates, but advancing spellcasting is probably the best way to go in terms of making it more powerful

Well, at this point, it comes down to adding the fluff; what makes the Dragon the Ultimate Evil, how he contacts PCs, etc. Once the fluff's in place, add the classes and go from there.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Epic-CR dragon works. Look in the Draconomicon for dragon-specific advancement options...my personal favorite is Dragon Ascendant.

I still think Asmodeus would be a good idea, as this is exactly his style. If you feel he's trite, you could try a lesser Archdevil, like Mephistopheles (also exactly his style, and he's rather more likely to obliterate you if you piss him off). The god Tharizdun would make a good choice, except he's really more about wiping out existence than setting up king-like proxies. Someone like him that the players wouldn't immediately recognize as setting them up for annihilation could be interesting, though...

You could also pillage ideas from a more specific campaign setting and rename them, like the imprisoned semi-deific fiends or personified dream creatures from Eberron.

[Lord Tataraus]

What about some evil being from the Far Realm that is able to contact the material plane and mess with people mentally, but it is straining. So it enlists (through rewards of power or reprogramming the person's brain) to work for it to take over the world or just open a way for it to enter the material plane.

Of course you could use some ancient being from the Abyss that fell from power when the demons arose or something similar.

[Woot Spitum]

Don't forget horrific abominations from the far realm.

EDIT: Stupid ninjas.

[Mewtarthio]

I'd avoid the Far Realms. They have a nasty alien mindset that prevents you from trusting them. Besides, mad cultists are more their style. Also, the OP wants something that can enforce loyalty. Nothing in the Far Realms is likely to reach the PCs if they don't bring it over themselves.

[Thane of Fife]

Something which exists at least partially inside the PCs - a ghost that can possess them, or something capable of taking some controo over there bodies makes for supreme control.

A being in charge of an important organization which the PCs need, but which they can't access without him. (The high priest of an order generally thought of as good, for example).

[Woot Spitum]

Perhaps the CC's are living keys capable of unlocking a hideously evil artifact. If one of them dies, the others can no longer get the artifact. That would prevent backstabbing.

[PlasticSoldier]

@^: That sounds like something vulnerable to loopholes, such as casting flesh to stone on everyone else and then when you need them casting stone to flesh.

How about a vestige? They're pretty powerful but aren't capable of doing things on there own.

[Skjaldbakka]

Ideal Ultimate Evil? Is that something like gating in solars and making them kill babies?

Hi. I'm one of the prospective players in this game. I have what you might call an active imagination when it comes to making up really evil things for evil people to do. Such as this.



I'm not going to follow this thread(and have, in fact, only read the first post), I just wanted to make a snarky comment, so don't worry about spoilers. If it helps, I am going to be playing a Dark Aasimar Half-Celestial Cleric of Despair, gestalt with mostly Warblade. Hurrah for fallen angels as evil overlords!

EDIt- Dtemplar doesn't care if I follow this thread, so I will.

[Mewtarthio]

Perhaps the CC's are living keys capable of unlocking a hideously evil artifact. If one of them dies, the others can no longer get the artifact. That would prevent backstabbing.

Two problems:

1) It means the PCs can never die during the course of their adventures.

2) There are ways to keep people alive and cooperative while still backstabbing them. Horrible, sadistic ways. This simply discourages murder and encourages, say, geas and programmed amnesia.

[Xefas]

A small step in the right direction; but he's a bit overused; and I prefer custom stuff rather than pre-written stuff.

You realize he's overused for a reason, right?

It's not like gamers go around saying "Damn, that villain was beyond unmitigated crap. Raw sewage incarnate, really...hey, lets use him again!"

Society at large enjoys doing this, but I like to think the gaming subculture does so less often.

Anyway, if you prefer custom stuff...lessee...ummm, so theres this Arch...gavel. Archgavel, named As...some...Awesome-Moose. He's lord of the 11 Bells of Attrition. He wants to rule the multiverse, but he can't, because he's a gavel, and most people don't take a small wooden hammer seriously, no matter how much the ultimate evil they are.

So, Awesome-Moose pretends to be a big red guy in a coat with a pentagram stick, and he enlists mortal agents to take over the multiverse for him. After the Beckoning of the Bells...

Err...I kind of lost myself in my own snarky metaphor...

The point is that homebrewed stuff isn't automatically better than pre-established stuff. I toss in a vote that you should use Asmodeus.

[DTemplar5]

You realize he's overused for a reason, right?

It's not like gamers go around saying "Damn, that villain was beyond unmitigated crap. Raw sewage incarnate, really...hey, lets use him again!"

Society at large enjoys doing this, but I like to think the gaming subculture does so less often.

Anyway, if you prefer custom stuff...lessee...ummm, so theres this Arch...gavel. Archgavel, named As...some...Awesome-Moose. He's lord of the 11 Bells of Attrition. He wants to rule the multiverse, but he can't, because he's a gavel, and most people don't take a small wooden hammer seriously, no matter how much the ultimate evil they are.

So, Awesome-Moose pretends to be a big red guy in a coat with a pentagram stick, and he enlists mortal agents to take over the multiverse for him. After the Beckoning of the Bells...

Err...I kind of lost myself in my own snarky metaphor...

The point is that homebrewed stuff isn't automatically better than pre-established stuff. I toss in a vote that you should use Asmodeus.

18th level isn't too far from the point where you could start taking down Asmodeus with careful planning. I want custom stuff so my players can't plan against it as easily as Asmodeus. Plus, the Unknown is a very useful advantage.

@^: That sounds like something vulnerable to loopholes, such as casting flesh to stone on everyone else and then when you need them casting stone to flesh.

How about a vestige? They're pretty powerful but aren't capable of doing things on there own.

Vestiges would be something I'd have to look into, since I'm not well versed in Tome of Magic, but that sounds interesting.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm...You want ultimate evil? The baddest, most horrific evil?


Easy. Anything NE that is as bad as the Yugoloth's. Heck, they caused the biggest power imbalance ever (the blood war), and managed to stay away from it!

[DTemplar5]

Hmm...You want ultimate evil? The baddest, most horrific evil?


Easy. Anything NE that is as bad as the Yugoloth's. Heck, they caused the biggest power imbalance ever (the blood war), and managed to stay away from it!

A path to look at. Got any big wigs you can point to in that regard?

[Mewtarthio]

18th level isn't too far from the point where you could start taking down Asmodeus with careful planning. I want custom stuff so my players can't plan against it as easily as Asmodeus. Plus, the Unknown is a very useful advantage.

Eighteenth-level characters taking down Asmodeus? He'd kill them easily in a straight fight, and he's a lot smarter than any of them, and he has more resources, and he has more information...

Seriously, the CR of an archdevil is way higher than 18, and Asmodeus is powerful enough that none of them have unseated him. Heck, I'm sure there's a bunch of Demon Lords out there who'd like to kill him, and none of them have succeeded either. Level 18 is quite powerful on the Prime Material Plane, but when you deal with entities like Asmodeus, you're just a minnow in a sea of sharks.

Still, I can see why you'd want to spring something unexpected on them.

Vestiges would be something I'd have to look into, since I'm not well versed in Tome of Magic, but that sounds interesting.

They're basically creatures that have fallen outside of existence. Binders bind them, and the vestige grants the binder powers in exchange for the ability to experience existence through the binder. If your PCs stumbled across a way to recover a vestige, they'd jump at the opportunity. The vestige, meanwhile, can still influence the PCs, either through a cabal of binders that bind the vestige to them or through granting exclusive rights to a PC binder. They've also got an advantage over traditional villains in that you can't kill a vestige, since it's neither alive nor dead. Off the current cultist that's pushing you around, and a new one shows up in his place (technically, vestiges can only influence their hosts in relatively subtle ways, so you'll need to have the cult actually dedicated to this guy).

There's also a great thread on this forum that tells the story of a campaign centered around a bunch of vestiges causing trouble: It's titled "Horror Campaign." You might find it interesting if you go the vestige route.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm...

I'm thinking of two things right now. One, a NE is NOT usually a killer, but one that lets others do the work, so you could try a Godfather, which is even better for memorable evil because courteousness is not that common.


Two, a NE goes his own way, unhindered by codes or impulsiveness. I'd say a seeker of ultimate power (A psion looking to create a worlwide telepathic link so that he can dominate everyone) is also very NE'ish, as is someone who does evil for evil's sake.

[Skjaldbakka]

Eighteenth-level characters taking down Asmodeus? He'd kill them easily in a straight fight, and he's a lot smarter than any of them, and he has more resources, and he has more information...

Never underestimate the power of PC ingenuity. While Assmodeous may have really high mentals and thus be able to outthink the characters, the DM is at an inherent disadvantage in that he has to try and outthink multiple people at once.

[Sovin N'dore]

Well, I suppose I will chime in with my advice. I would start with something along these lines. They are some of my favorite evil builds and since I will probably not be going there...

[DTemplar5]

Well, I suppose I will chime in with my advice. I would start with something along these lines. They are some of my favorite evil builds and since I will probably not be going there...

This is exactly what I wanted. Of course, leave it to my players to find this stuff.

[Sovin N'dore]

On the WotC CO boards the Boogeyman is really a more iconic build, but I don't think it has the flavor of the Triad.

[BloodyAngel]

It seems like you're looking for a powerful force to keep the PC's allied and not killing each other... but which needs them around. (After all... if it's omnipotent and bad-ass... it can do it's own ass-kicking and world dominating better than they can).

How about this. The ghost of a god, slain by his fellow gods, who choses the PC to help restore it to life. It cannot influence the world in particular... but it's worshippers can. An entire cult of fanatically devoted lunatics who STILL draw power from their worship (in fact... it may be their devotion that is keeping their god in existance in the first place) despite their god's lack of power. The god promises them unimaginable power... nay... even demi-god status if they can manage this great undertaking. Or, failing that... it can use it's cult to extort them... but what evil group won't jump at the change to become gods? (And eventually betray their patron and take over... but that's a long time away).

Just an idea... and there aren't rules for it. If you just want an uber-bad ass combat machine of destruction... just add on to a dragon or the like. Or a Tarrasque with 20 levels in monk. Be afraid.