Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[danielxcutter]

Clerics can and do outstrip fighters in terms of melee combat ability alone in this edition, though. Divine Favor + Divine Power + Righteous Might, for starters.

[Peelee]

Well for one, Durkon spent most of the comic focusing on healing spells. While they're an important part of the Cleric's toolbox, focusing on them is far from the optimal use of spells.

IIRC 3.5 clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells to Cure spells. So Durkon (and most clerics) likely didn't prepare most of the healing spells we see, since there's simply no reason to when you could prepare alternate spells and convert on an as-needed basis.

Certainly, but optimization isn't "what is absolutely required".

There's no doubt that Durkon is very effective, but optimization is doing the best possible, not doing just good.

Sure, but Quicken Spell isn't the best possible feat option. Sure, it's fantastic for enhancing action economy, but it's also got a hefty cost with the +4 spell level.

[Crusher]

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

I agree with this.

[Bird]

IIRC 3.5 clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells to Cure spells. So Durkon (and most clerics) likely didn't prepare most of the healing spells we see, since there's simply no reason to when you could prepare alternate spells and convert on an as-needed basis.

This is true of Good clerics like Durkon. Evil clerics spontaneously convert spells to Inflicts instead of Cures, so Malack and Redcloak have prepared any Cures we see them cast (or they're casting from scrolls, or whatever).

Undead are healed by Inflicts, so if Redcloak is healing Xykon or Malack is healing himself, it's most likely a spontaneous conversion.

[Unoriginal]

IIRC 3.5 clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells to Cure spells. So Durkon (and most clerics) likely didn't prepare most of the healing spells we see, since there's simply no reason to when you could prepare alternate spells and convert on an as-needed basis.

And yet, Durkon not having the needed spells prepared (including things like "no Dispel Magic") was sort of a running gag, or at least plot point, for a while.

Point is that for a long time, Durkon did not use a lot of the most potent spells at his disposal. Thor's Lightning and Thor's Might and healing spells are still pretty powerful, but buffs and debuffs were far less used until... his fight with Malack, I'd say.

Now that I think of it, it's entirely possible that Durkon was still hindered by the "don't help unless specifically asked" lesson he internalized as a kid, even with Roy nearly getting eaten changing it to "don't help unless specifically asked, unless you see the person is too in trouble to make it without your intervention". Being imprisoned in his own mind let him realize he needed to be proactive even when he wasn't the only one able to do something.

[Psyren]

Given that Calder has an 8th level spell (Polar Ray), what does that tell us about his age and/or build?

Also, do we know what would allow a red dragon to remove their cold vulnerability? A Savage Species ritual maybe?

[Tzardok]

Given that Calder has an 8th level spell (Polar Ray), what does that tell us about his age and/or build?

Either Wyrm, Ancient + 1 Sorcerer level, Very Old + 3 Src, or Old + 5 Scr.

Also, do we know what would allow a red dragon to remove their cold vulnerability? A Savage Species ritual maybe?

Could be. Could also be equipment (I think the Draconomicon has rules for enchanted gems that can be stuck between the scales) or a feat (there's at least one feat that gives you energy resistence, and if your resistence negates the damage dealt, the vulnerability doesn't apply).

[RMS Oceanic]

With malice towards none, and in the spirit of trying to figure what's going on, I think maybe the reasonable doubt standard is hurting the thread. If there are multiple options and none of them can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, stuff like this happens. It doesn't have to happen, but it does.

That being said, I think Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ (Bard caster level 16+) is at least transparent about the dilemma and costs hardly anything spacewise.

I don't agree, because the dilemma is about assuming unspecified homebrew abilities instead of which feat or class ability enables the onscreen action, and I disagree with that standard of evidence. At least some of the Order have previously demonstrated class levels of 15+ and have had plenty of adventuring since then, so I can't see the problem with concluding Elan is level 17 including Bard 16.

[Peelee]

And yet, Durkon not having the needed spells prepared (including things like "no Dispel Magic") was sort of a running gag, or at least plot point, for a while.

Point is that for a long time, Durkon did not use a lot of the most potent spells at his disposal. Thor's Lightning and Thor's Might and healing spells are still pretty powerful, but buffs and debuffs were far less used until... his fight with Malack, I'd say.

Sure, but when you have the entire class spell list at your disposal and can change your spells on a daily basis, I'm hesitant to call his build unoptimized (or, at least, less optimized than Elan). His day-to-day spell selection? Sure. The overall build? Don't see much evidence of that yet.

[Tubercular Ox]

Is the latest comic enough to tag Calder with Ocular Spell?

[dmc91356]

Is the latest comic enough to tag Calder with Ocular Spell?

I just looked that feat up and if I am reading it right, the dragon would need to have 10th level spell slots, right?


{scrubbed}

If so, yikes.

[Peelee]

Is the latest comic enough to tag Calder with Ocular Spell?

I've never dealt with epic level shenanigans, so I'm not sure how the rules deal with metamagic pushing a spell above 9th level. Polar Ray is 8th, Ocular Spell uses a slot two spell levels higher. If that's doable, i don't see why not.

Also, I'd advocate for at least one more feat, possibly three: Hover, Suppress Weakness, and Overcome Weakness.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, I missed the epic thing. For the record, he would need two such spell slots because you have to cast your spell once for each eye.

[Tzardok]

I've never dealt with epic level shenanigans, so I'm not sure how the rules deal with metamagic pushing a spell above 9th level. Polar Ray is 8th, Ocular Spell uses a slot two spell levels higher. If that's doable, i don't see why not.

For that, you'd need the feat Improved Spell Capacity which grants you a spellslot at a spell level one higher than what you already can cast. This spellslot can then be used to prepare/cast spells that are modified through metamagic to a higher level. It does require you to already have access to the highest spell level of your caster class, so Calder would need to at least cast like an 18th level sorcerer (requires Great Wyrm, Wyrm +1 Sorc, etc.).

Much more importantly, he doesn't say Ocular Polar Ray, like other people do when casting metamagically modified spells. So I think he doesn't do it.

Also, I'd advocate for at least one more feat, possibly three: Hover, Suppress Weakness, and Overcome Weakness.

Those make sense.

[b_jonas]

I've never dealt with epic level shenanigans, so I'm not sure how the rules deal with metamagic pushing a spell above 9th level. Polar Ray is 8th, Ocular Spell uses a slot two spell levels higher. If that's doable, i don't see why not.

In #652 5th, Xykon identifies Vaarsuvius's Quickened Chain lightning spell as 10th level. This makes sense, becuase Chain lightning is a level 6 spell and Quicken spell adds 4 levels. Xykon is an epic spellcaster so he's something of an authority here. So I think a 10th level spell slot is possible, though I have no opinion whether Calder has one or what the cold spell that she casts here (in #1297) is.

[InvisibleBison]

I think it's pretty clear that Calder isn't using Ocular Spell in #1297 and is just "describing" the casting of his spell in a cool way. In addition to him not saying Ocular Polar Ray, the action economy of using Ocular Spell doesn't fit what we see: It would take a standard action for him to store a polar ray spell in his eye and then a full round action to discharge it. However, he is shown as discharging the ray at the same time as he casts it.

[Tubercular Ox]

Going to ask the question again for Embed Spell Focus, which would put Polar Ray's focus in his hide somewhere. And creates opportunities for him to have other foci without having to explain why Serini didn't strip them from him, especially a valuable one.

[Peelee]

IIRC Draconomicon stated that dragons did not need material components for their innate spellcasting.

Which, frankly, should always have been how D&D treated sorcerers and innate casters. Material components make sense for wizards, who use their intelligence to manipulate the weave, but doesn't make much sense for innate casters who are primally imbued with magic itself. Even in the fluff, it's said that sorcerers often discover they are sorcerers because they suddenly started spouting magical spells off, and it seems a bit silly to think that they just so happened to be tossing around bat guano or whatever else to have the sudden, surprising spell come out. And it might have helped balance the sorc better, given how extremely stripped down it was compare to wizard.

But that's all not RAW or RAI ajd just my own personal grumblings.

[Tubercular Ox]

IIRC Draconomicon stated that dragons did not need material components for their innate spellcasting.

Embed Spell Focus is printed in Draconomicon, so an interesting choice.

Here we go:

As noted in the Monster Manual, creatures with innate spellcasting abilities, such as dragons, do not require material components to cast their spells. If a spell has a focus, however, a dragon or other innate spellcaster must have the focus on its person. Dragons can use the Embed Spell Focus feat to satisfy this requirement.

[Crusher]

Going to ask the question again for Embed Spell Focus, which would put Polar Ray's focus in his hide somewhere. And creates opportunities for him to have other foci without having to explain why Serini didn't strip them from him, especially a valuable one.

Does the Stickverse generally require casters to have arcane focii? V certainly refers to spell components and such, but actually having them and/or a focus when casting tends to get glossed over visually iirc. For big, punchy moments like a Resurrection, they're obviously present, but V doesn't visually whip out some bat guano every time they cast Fireball.

[Metastachydium]

Does the Stickverse generally require casters to have arcane focii? V certainly refers to spell components and such, but actually having them and/or a focus when casting tends to get glossed over visually iirc. For big, punchy moments like a Resurrection, they're obviously present, but V doesn't visually whip out some bat guano every time they cast Fireball.

Those are material components, rather than foci, even the diamonds. The only arcane focus we have actually seen that I can recall is Dorukan's circlet needed to cast Cloister. Now, this means they are a thing in the Stickverse, but tells us little about how they are treated for the purpose of casting lesser spells.

[InvisibleBison]

Does the Stickverse generally require casters to have arcane focii?

Generally not, I'd say. Xykon uses a focus when casting soul bind (SOD pp. 71, 106), but Lirian doesn't use a focus when casting shapechange (SOD p. 67) and Zz'dtri does not appear to use a focus when casting plane shift. And since it wouldn't really make sense for Xykon to trap someone's soul in a gem without having an actual gem, I think the Giant only draws foci when they are narratively useful, though I don't know if the rules of the thread will allow us to acknowledge that.

[Tubercular Ox]

As often as V shops for expensive material components (Rich even calls out using ruby dust in Forcecage), I just assumed Rich cared about foci, too. I would like it if *or-Rich-used-a-house-rule applied here but I'm not done poking at Calder so I don't feel an urge yet to defend it too ardently.

Interesting to note that Contingency requires a focus that you have to keep with you in order for it to go off. And I enjoy research, so please don't go off on me for exploring a tangent.

[Chronos]

Have we considered the possibility that, when Serini called Calder "a bit of a mindbender", she was speaking literally? A dragon could easily qualify for the Mindbender prestige class without any base class levels, and it'd account for how he could mentally communicate with Sunny and put a mind-whammy on them from outside of line of sight.

[Ephemera]

Does anyone have a good recollection of what we decided about Belkar's bonds with Scruffy and Bloodfeast? I roughly recall that we decided Scruffy was his animal companion, in which case, how do we explain his communication with the Allosaur? Can he have enough handle animal to "talk" to him? Is there any way to have two animal companions? Is Bloodfeast his companion and Scruffy just a pet?

Or maybe Bloodfeast is an Allosaur with class levels and an INT high enough to understand Belkar and choose to help, haha. I mean, technically he could have just thrown him and assumed that upon being polymorphed, he'd reflexively bite Calder, but it seems pretty clear that Bloodfeast somehow agreed to the plan before being thrown?

[InvisibleBison]

Does anyone have a good recollection of what we decided about Belkar's bonds with Scruffy and Bloodfeast? I roughly recall that we decided Scruffy was his animal companion, in which case, how do we explain his communication with the Allosaur? Can he have enough handle animal to "talk" to him? Is there any way to have two animal companions? Is Bloodfeast his companion and Scruffy just a pet?

Or maybe Bloodfeast is an Allosaur with class levels and an INT high enough to understand Belkar and choose to help, haha. I mean, technically he could have just thrown him and assumed that upon being polymorphed, he'd reflexively bite Calder, but it seems pretty clear that Bloodfeast somehow agreed to the plan before being thrown?

It's perfectly possible for Belkar to have enough of a Handle Animal bonus to be able to win the allegiance of Bloodfeast via wild empathy. As a 14th level ranger with some amount of Charisma penalty, he'd have a +9 to +13 bonus to the check, depending on just how big his penalty is; the upper end of that range is significantly more likely than the lower. The DC for bringing Bloodfeast to a helpful attitude varies based on the starting attitude, but I would argue that Bloodfeast's attitude towards Belkar would be either indifferent or perhaps even friendly in #922; Belkar had previously had a good interaction with Bloodfeast and wasn't taking any hostile actions against him at the time. That would make the DC of achieving a helpful attitude either 30 or 20. The latter is hard but (almost certainly) not impossible; the latter is quite doable.

[Doug Lampert]

Those are material components, rather than foci, even the diamonds. The only arcane focus we have actually seen that I can recall is Dorukan's circlet needed to cast Cloister. Now, this means they are a thing in the Stickverse, but tells us little about how they are treated for the purpose of casting lesser spells.

DarthV cast shapechange, and had no reason to have the focus for that. Unless there's something in the splice that allows focuses to be ignored or we're assuming that the epic casters had some sort of feat to allow them to ignore foci, I think that most Foci are being ignored.

[Gurgeh]

I think it's more straightforward to assume that foci are used but are usually not depicted, the same way that material components are almost never shown on the page.

[Ephemera]

It's perfectly possible for Belkar to have enough of a Handle Animal bonus to be able to win the allegiance of Bloodfeast via wild empathy. As a 14th level ranger with some amount of Charisma penalty, he'd have a +9 to +13 bonus to the check, depending on just how big his penalty is; the upper end of that range is significantly more likely than the lower. The DC for bringing Bloodfeast to a helpful attitude varies based on the starting attitude, but I would argue that Bloodfeast's attitude towards Belkar would be either indifferent or perhaps even friendly in #922; Belkar had previously had a good interaction with Bloodfeast and wasn't taking any hostile actions against him at the time. That would make the DC of achieving a helpful attitude either 30 or 20. The latter is hard but (almost certainly) not impossible; the latter is quite doable.

I guess that works. I would read the Wild Empathy rules as saying that it can't be repeated (like diplomacy). By RAW, it seems fairly clear that Bloodfeast shouldn't actually be able to understand Belkar, so the whole "I'll let you feast later" would seem to be just a speech-bubble acting as illustration of him using Wild Empathy and he shouldn't be smart enough to understand a bargain with Belkar. From a story perspective, clearly both Scruffy and Bloodfeast are treated as considerably smarter than base animals, but that's not really helpful for this thread. I guess Belkar can use handle animal after he's used Wild Empathy to improve B's attitude so maybe none of this really needs any rule-based explanation.

[Metastachydium]

Does anyone have a good recollection of what we decided about Belkar's bonds with Scruffy and Bloodfeast? I roughly recall that we decided Scruffy was his animal companion

At this point, I believe that's pretty much confirmed: Mr. Scruffy recently demonstrated possessing Evasion, which is a tad tough to explain otherwise.

As a 14th level ranger with some amount of Charisma penalty

I'd honestly be surprised to learn that Belkar has an actual penalty to CHA. He's quite a capable manipulator, very good at lying and intimidation and in terms of success with women, second only to Elan from among the members of the party that swing that way. Do we have anything beyond one (1) snarky comment from V (of all people) that would indicate he really is low-CHA?