Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[Gwen]

*dusts off forum account* What comic 1264 does tell us about Redcloak, unless I'm forgetting something wildly obvious, is that either his level or his Wisdom is higher than this thread's current estimation. That's not based on guesses about the Law elemental's HD, but rather on Redcloak casting two 9th-level spells on one prayed-for allotment.

At 17th level, with no bonus spells based on his power stat, he'd only have one 9th-level spell and one domain spell—and neither Gate nor Implosion are domain spells for Evil or Law. Ergo, he has to be either 18th level, able to cast two 9th-level spells and still have a domain spell in his back pocket, or he has to have the requisite Wisdom to get a bonus 9th-level spell at 17th level, which would put his Wisdom at a minimum of 28.

(I haven't posted in the forums in literal years, but I do still like to duck in sometimes, and this is a fun thread. Kudos to the regulars who keep it going!)

[Yendor]

*dusts off forum account* What comic 1264 does tell us about Redcloak, unless I'm forgetting something wildly obvious, is that either his level or his Wisdom is higher than this thread's current estimation. That's not based on guesses about the Law elemental's HD, but rather on Redcloak casting two 9th-level spells on one prayed-for allotment.

At 17th level, with no bonus spells based on his power stat, he'd only have one 9th-level spell and one domain spell—and neither Gate nor Implosion are domain spells for Evil or Law. Ergo, he has to be either 18th level, able to cast two 9th-level spells and still have a domain spell in his back pocket, or he has to have the requisite Wisdom to get a bonus 9th-level spell at 17th level, which would put his Wisdom at a minimum of 28.

(I haven't posted in the forums in literal years, but I do still like to duck in sometimes, and this is a fun thread. Kudos to the regulars who keep it going!)

Implosion is a domain spell for Destruction, and we know he has that because he can cast Disintegrate.

[Gwen]

Implosion is a domain spell for Destruction, and we know he has that because he can cast Disintegrate.

Ah, there'd be the wildly obvious thing. Oh, well.

[ff7hero]

And we know from the Cleric duel that Law isn't one of his Domains.

[Jasdoif]

And we know from the Cleric duel that Law isn't one of his Domains.

We know that Redcloak knows hold monster isn't on the standard cleric spell list.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Redcloak casts hold monster himself, at the circus manticore.

[b_jonas]

Meanwhile, we have in-comic confirmation that Redcloak is Lawful.

It's not entirely clear-cut. As far as I understand the rules, as long as neither Redcloak nor The Dark One are chaotic, Redcloak can use Gate to summon lawful Modrons. So he could be neutral evil. Redcloak says “I think the circumstances call for a different skill set – from the other side of the family.”, but I don't think that is a clear enough statement to mean that he is lawful.

[InvisibleBison]

It's not entirely clear-cut. As far as I understand the rules, as long as neither Redcloak nor The Dark One are chaotic, Redcloak can use Gate to summon lawful Modrons. So he could be neutral evil. Redcloak says “I think the circumstances call for a different skill set – from the other side of the family.”, but I don't think that is a clear enough statement to mean that he is lawful.

So if Redcloak is neutral evil, what family is he talking about and how are modrons from the other side of it compared to devils?

[MultitudeMan]

And we know from the Cleric duel that Law isn't one of his Domains.

I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.

[ff7hero]

We know that Redcloak knows hold monster isn't on the standard cleric spell list.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Redcloak casts hold monster himself, at the circus manticore.

I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.

Huh, my bad then. That scene feels a little weird under that interpretation, but it certainly seems like it must be the case.

Just out of curiosity, when was SoD published relative to that comic?

[danielxcutter]

I mean Redcloak using Substitute Domain does feel very… well Redcloak.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

I think all this is irrelevant? After all, the quinton does explicitly say “Greetings, Cleric of Law”, which is the sort of thing a quinton would only say as a greeting to a cleric of law.

[hamishspence]

I thought that Redcloak was just surprised that he was dueling another Lawful cleric. He cast Hold Monster in SOD, apparently (I don't have it), so unless he cast Substitute Domain that day, he's also Lawful.

Since the spell doesn't specifically say it overrides the standard rules for taking domains, doesn't that mean you still have to be Lawful to, for example, "swap the Destruction domain for the Law domain"?

[b_jonas]

InvisibleBison: I really don't know. There is certainly no one big happy family of evil (#668 5th), nor is Team Evil a family.

After all, the quinton does explicitly say “Greetings, Cleric of Law”, which is the sort of thing a quinton would only say as a greeting to a cleric of law.

Hmm yes, I missed that. That does sound like the Modron is not talking just about his Law domain but about his alignment.

[hamishspence]

It's normally impossible to use the Law domain without having a Lawful alignment.

And a Law domain cleric will radiate a much more powerful Lawful aura (for their level) than "A LE cleric of a NE god, with no Law domain" would.

[danielxcutter]

They do? Don't remember that.

[Jasdoif]

Just out of curiosity, when was SoD published relative to that comic?

The first printing of Start of Darkness was dated May 2007; #456 was posted on the 23rd of that month.

---

It's normally impossible to use the Law domain without having a Lawful alignment.

And a Law domain cleric will radiate a much more powerful Lawful aura (for their level) than "A LE cleric of a NE god, with no Law domain" would.

In case anyone (else) needs a paraphrase: a lawful cleric of a nonlawful deity is not "a cleric of a lawful deity", so detect law (whose description is like "just use the tables for detect evil") would show the about-one-fifth-strength aura of a "lawful creature".

This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature and a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).

[hamishspence]

This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature and a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).

A cleric with the Law domain and no deity at all will still radiate the powerful aura.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm



Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.



I would say that part of the point of this line is that if there's a mismatch between "domain" and "deity", "domain" takes precedence for aura purposes.

So if a NE deity can somehow offer the Law domain, or somehow offer the Chaos domain (Maglubiyet the NE goblin deity can offer the Chaos domain, for example), then the CE cleric who takes the Chaos domain gets the strong aura, just as the deityless cleric who takes that domain would.

[Jasdoif]

A cleric with the Law domain and no deity at all will still radiate the powerful aura.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm



Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.



I would say that part of the point of this line is that if there's a mismatch between "domain" and "deity", "domain" takes precedence for aura purposes.

So if a NE deity can somehow offer the Law domain, or somehow offer the Chaos domain (Maglubiyet the NE goblin deity can offer the Chaos domain, for example), then the CE cleric who takes the Chaos domain gets the strong aura, just as the deityless cleric who takes that domain would.

I'll buy that the decision to allow clerics to worship concepts instead of deities could have happened late enough that the spell text wasn't reviewed, yes.

[dancrilis]

This doesn't directly relate to the Law domain; however you can only choose an alignment domain if it matches your alignment and (by convention) deities only offer alignment domains that match their alignment; so having the Law domain almost certainly means you're both a lawful creature and a cleric of a lawful Deity (and the stronger aura would show up, which outside of edge cases will be the latter).

We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.

[hamishspence]

I'll buy that the decision to allow clerics to worship concepts instead of deities could have happened late enough that the spell text wasn't reviewed, yes.

It's a pretty old concept in D&D. The Rules Cyclopedia, from 1991, which republished and compiled yet older material, said:

"A cleric is a human character who is dedicated to serving a great and worthy cause. This cause can be an Immortal being dedicated to a specific goal or attribute; sometimes the cleric is serving only his alignment, and has no interest in immortal beings."

We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.

I think the Southern Pantheon is a good example - TN, yet offering the full range of domains.

[Jasdoif]

We know that in OOTS deities can grant domains for alignments they do not possess.

That's why I said "by convention": there aren't any rules prohibiting it, so it's still possible; it's common practice, but not enforced practice.

It's a pretty old concept in D&D. The Rules Cyclopedia, from 1991, which republished and compiled yet older material, said:

"A cleric is a human character who is dedicated to serving a great and worthy cause. This cause can be an Immortal being dedicated to a specific goal or attribute; sometimes the cleric is serving only his alignment, and has no interest in immortal beings."

I don't doubt it, but I also don't think being an old concept means it's automatically reflected in subsequent rules (D&D's attitude about sacred cows notwithstanding); otherwise we'd still have THAC0 rather than BAB.

[hamishspence]

3.0 and 3.5 both had text in the Cleric section of the PHB mentioning the option. I don't know about 2e and 1e but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Gurgeh]

So, what's the rationale behind 1148 being evidence of Minrah's alignment? Nothing she says or does in that strip makes a convincing argument for placing her anywhere in particular on the law/chaos axis. I think she is a good fit for LG, but frankly the linked strip doesn't make the case at all.

[InvisibleBison]

So, what's the rationale behind 1148 being evidence of Minrah's alignment? Nothing she says or does in that strip makes a convincing argument for placing her anywhere in particular on the law/chaos axis. I think she is a good fit for LG, but frankly the linked strip doesn't make the case at all.

I also don't see how 1148 demonstrates anything about Minrah's alignment. And looking through the older threads, the only discussion of the issue I can find is someone asking the same question a few years ago.

[danielxcutter]

I’d personally put her Neutral Good but that is entirely a guess and nothing to do with actual proof. I think it’s safe to assume she’s Good, at least, but not sure about anything else besides that.

[Metastachydium]

A question over in the Trivia thread got me thinking. Thor's Lightning seems to have a somatic component, namely a finger pointed at the target. Durkno, on the othe hand is shown doing the targeting with his hammer instead on at least one occasion. Could this mean he has Somatic Weaponry?

[Xihirli]

Redcloak cast 2 9ths in one day – Implosion and Gate. That would either put him above level 17 or mean one or the other is his Domain spell, right?

EDIT: Implosion is Destruction Domain. So he might or might not still have a 9th left today.

[tyckspoon]

Redcloak cast 2 9ths in one day – Implosion and Gate. That would either put him above level 17 or mean one or the other is his Domain spell, right?

EDIT: Implosion is Destruction Domain. So he might or might not still have a 9th left today.

Cast one from a Domain slot, is in excess of level 17, or has a Wisdom of 28 or higher (sufficient to get a level 9 bonus slot.) Lots of ways to get an additional spell cast, generally needs other references or supporting cases to figure out specifically which one. And that's assuming you aren't even considering things like 'Well maybe the Red Cloak gives him extra domain slots' which may plausibly happen but generally have no evidence for or against unless Rich decides to make a direct mention of it in the comic.

(Given that we already know Redcloak has the Destruction domain, the interpretation that requires the fewest additional factors is 'Implosion was cast from Domain slot, Gate was his normal 9th level memorization, and Redcloak is most likely out of 9th level spells for the day.')

[ff7hero]

Speaking of RC's Domains, isn't Unholy Blight an Evil Domain exclusive? Or at least not on the stock Cleric list.

[danielxcutter]

I think there might be a domain or two that also gets it, but yes it's not on the default Cleric list. Substitute Domain is a thing, though.