Darkness is Good (Idea)

[Leliel]

Well, it has occurred to me that most fantasy mediums, the darkness, when it is an actual elemental force, is usually treated as an incredibly bad thing (The Heartless are darkness based, most "Black Magic" is darkness based...the list goes on and on). Since I am a closet lygophilliac (look it up), I decided to give the ol' shadow a bit more respect. So...

How would you, the posters, go about creating a non-evil campaign where all the PCs have darkness/shadow-based powers? How did the party get these? How do they work? Does the Shadow Plane factor in? What should the villains be? How should you treat entities born from darkness? How about ones born from light?

What I was thinking is that a common power among the PCs should be the ability to create, or heal, along with defensive powers. After all, all things were born from darkness, and it protects us from the light, does it not?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Just give Darkness flexibility, at the cost of some hit to itself, a la M:TG. And I tend to agree, Darkness = Evil is a stupid PoV. Now, as for the blackened part...


The PC's couldaf obtained them from a sort of shadow-weave, or something akin to it. I'd just make the powers able to do just about anything, but it requires ever increasing exertion from the PC's, which can lead to death (for example, look to D. Eddings The Malloreon and Belgariad, specifically, their sorcerers). The shadow plane, as said, is the source of power. Villains could be 's, or some other kind of idiot. I'd also rework the nightthings to have variable alignments, so as to further erase the darkness = evil misconsception. And things born from light would be inherently hostile, or would at least have some dislike for the PC's.

[Prometheus]

The world is set in a plane where the sun only rises rarely (weekly? monthly?) and does so only briefly. Like, Pitch Black, except opposite. Instead, the protagonists and the civilized thrive during the night, and during the day, the sun blinds everything and the creatures of the day prey on the weak. This would be an environmental hazard that becomes a theme that the more intelligent evils are associated with. Although alternatively, the sun could be very rare (every century?) and represent an apocalypse that is backdrop of suspense and is exploited by evil.

[Innis Cabal]

Eternal Sonata has done a good job on this....might wanna look into it

[Neon Knight]

How would you, the posters, go about creating a non-evil campaign where all the PCs have darkness/shadow-based powers? How did the party get these? How do they work? Does the Shadow Plane factor in? What should the villains be? How should you treat entities born from darkness? How about ones born from light?

Firstly, the non-evil bit is child's play. In this case, light represents intrusive inquisitiveness. Everyone deserves their privacy, and there are some dark corners of our minds and souls that should never see the light of day. Nothing is to be gained by unveiling these dark secrets, and one's reputation and life can be annihilated by the revealing of secrets.

The dark protects us from the eyes of the intrusive. Like a black curtain where we can retreat to heal, hide, and contemplate, safe from the judging eyes of the universe.

There are already a handful of shadow related powers floating about. The Shadow Hand ToB school for instance. Just have the player's find their darkness powers. They need no explanation. I mean, you don't an explanation for being a sorcerer, do you? Or a mage that likes shadowy spells. There need be no elaboration; the material is already present.

Shadow Plane? Blech. I've always disliked planes. I do like snakes though.

As for the villians? The good ol' Inquisition. Privacy? Privacy is a myth to them. Innocence? There is no innocence to the inquisition, only degrees of guilt. Good taken to an insane level, a desire for purity that one does wrong to try to make oneself pure.

Entities born of light are displayed as too inquisitive for their own good, overbearing, self righteous, perhaps with large egos.

Entities of dark are like shadows, passive, reactive. They don't pry into other people's business, or take initiative, or infringe upon others. In a world controlled by dominating control freaks, they're refreshingly quiet, content to sit in the dark and bother no one.

[martyboy74]

I wouldn't say that you're a closet lygophiliac (look at your username, sig, and profile)...

Light could be considered a necessary evil. Without light, there is no shadow (everything is darkness). With complete light, there is no shadow either.

If you did do this, you'd need to rework some of the [light], [shadow], [darkness] spells.

[Xefas]

You could consider using the Shadow Hand maneuvers from the Tome of Battle. They are supernatural shadow-based abilities with no ties to alignment.

In addition, the Tome of Magic has shadow-based casters, and a template that you can add to any monster to make them shadow-based. Neither of these have anything to do with alignment.

Just some ideas for mechanics to use.

[The_Snark]

How would you, the posters, go about creating a non-evil campaign where all the PCs have darkness/shadow-based powers? How did the party get these? How do they work? Does the Shadow Plane factor in? What should the villains be? How should you treat entities born from darkness? How about ones born from light?

I once played a character similar to the sort of thing you're saying. She was tenuously based off Peter Dickinson's short story Kraken, which had a take on this much like what you're thinking of—the Kraken was a creature of the darkness, incredibly different from all other life and sometimes frightening because of how different it was, but not evil or even hostile.

The character I was referring to believed that the dark was something that had been present before anything else—dark has to be there before light, after all. It was her belief that darkness was a comforting thing. It would hide you from unfriendly eyes no matter who or what you were, completely accepting and universally protective.

But because of that, creatures who were hunted for their evil (vampires, undead, etc) took refuge in it, adapting to it, and so most people in the area of the world that the character came from believed light to be good and dark to be evil.

Humans and most creatures were creatures of light and sun; most of what others would consider creatures of the night, she believed to be creatures of the light who had been forced to dwell in the darkness. True creatures of the night were very rare and hard to understand, and often fearful of light and people.

[Alleine]

There's a number of different ways to make shadow/darkness not evil.

For example, in the Recluse books, if anyone has read them, there are two types of magic: black and white. The more common look is Order and Chaos respectively. Chaos is destructive, energetic, and evil. If you have an infection, there is too much chaos in the wound(through no one's fault, thats just what it is). Order is dark, healing, and good, despite the fact that no one really likes any wizards in general in those books.
If you get a look at the books, its much clearer. Especially since there is supposed to be a balance. Too much evil is bad, but too much good is just as bad.

[DraPrime]

A lot of monsters (such as vampires) are either greatly associated with, or benefit from darkness. Have the complete opposite happen. Vampires could be hurt by nighttime just like they're hurt by the sun in a normal world. Lycanthropes might transform for reasons related to the sun, not the moon. The possibilities are endless, and you'll be able to make interesting monsters without changing much.

[BRC]

A lot of monsters (such as vampires) are either greatly associated with, or benefit from darkness. Have the complete opposite happen. Vampires could be hurt by nighttime just like they're hurt by the sun in a normal world. Lycanthropes might transform for reasons related to the sun, not the moon. The possibilities are endless, and you'll be able to make interesting monsters without changing much.

Who says vampires and lycanthropes must be evil. Vampires drink blood yes, but only from willing donors whom they pay. Lycanthropes have a refuge where they go during the full moon if they think they might hurt somebody while changed, the refuge is just a big spot of wilderness with well-maintained paths for the lycanthropes to find their way out again.

[Prometheus]

Who says vampires and lycanthropes must be evil. Vampires drink blood yes, but only from willing donors whom they pay. Lycanthropes have a refuge where they go during the full moon if they think they might hurt somebody while changed, the refuge is just a big spot of wilderness with well-maintained paths for the lycanthropes to find their way out again.

Alternatively, they do slaughter tons of humanoids, but that's okay, because humans are evil.

[BRC]

Alternatively, they do slaughter tons of humanoids, but that's okay, because humans are evil.

Yeah! I mean in one world a paladin can storm into a goblin village and without asking anything kill them all, and it's a good thing! who's to say it dosn't work the other way around.

[Neon Knight]

I don't think subverting a trope just for the sake of subverting a trope is a good idea.

[Mewtarthio]

I don't think subverting a trope just for the sake of subverting a trope is a good idea.

Actually, that would be an inversion. A subversion relies on its audience's familiarity with the trope to deliver the suprise. An inversion just says, "That's cliched; let's try it the other way around."

There's not really anything I can add. Shadow Hand, Shadowcasters, etc etc. You might consider making a campaign in which all the PCs automatically start with a shadow-related template, though that works best in a traditional "shadows are scary" campaign setting (so they have to deal with whatever results from their natures, be it hostility or detatchment; therefore, they become adventurers).

[Woot Spitum]

Who says vampires and lycanthropes must be evil. Vampires drink blood yes, but only from willing donors whom they pay. Lycanthropes have a refuge where they go during the full moon if they think they might hurt somebody while changed, the refuge is just a big spot of wilderness with well-maintained paths for the lycanthropes to find their way out again.

Bah! The old stories are the best, where monsters are monsters instead of guests on Dr. Phil.

In all seriousness though, since humans rely on sight more than any other senses, darkness leaves them significantly handicapped. This leads to fear of the darkness, as well as anything in the darkness that takes advantage of this weakness, leads to the perception that darkness is evil.

So darkvision or blindness that relies on other senses might work well to negate these perceptions. Also something from the darkness that duplicates the life-giving properties of the sun, providing warmth and things like that would probably be a good addition.

[Fhaolan]

Let's go back to basics. Why is night/dark viewed as evil? Several reasons that add up.

1) Humans are typically diurnal. They sleep at night. Therefore night predators are the most dangerous. Anything dangerous is by human definition evil.

2) Human vision is very poor in darkness. What you can't see can kill you. Therefore predators in the night are the most dangerous. Anything dangerous is by human definition evil.

Notice a pattern?

I could keep going. The thing is, humans have difficultly seeing in the dark. They sleep in the dark. They are at their most vulnerable in the dark. It's a small jump in human psychology to go from evil things in the dark to the dark being evil in and of itself.

To make daylight evil, you have to put something in the daylight that can counteract this. The light itself could be dangerous. Perhaps the sun-god has become corrupted by something and sunlight burns exposed flesh like radiation burns. Or there's predators or diseases that only come out in the daylight that humans normally can't fight against. Something that is a significant threat that is preventing people from being in the light.

Or you have to put something *very* good in the dark. Healing magic only working in the darkness, etc.

Otherwise, all you have is an arbitrary inversion which usually doesn't go over so well. There are so many reasons for people to like light and dislike dark you have to go pretty far to reverse that.

[BRC]

In Discworld the Deep-Downer dwarves saw darkness as a good thing, because there was so much of it that if you saw light you were usually blinded. One of them uses the phrase "He has seen the light" to refer to somebody becoming, in his opinion, corrupted. Maybe the protagonists are from a race that has very sensitive eyes.

[Jannex]

Last spring I was in a game that had (completely unintentionally) half the PCs with some form of shadow-related class or ability (a CG Bard//Shadowcaster, a CN Rogue/Shadowdancer//stuff, and me, a NG Ranger//Swordsage with lots of Shadow Hand maneuvers); I think the DM ended up using it as a minor plot point once, letting us notice something the other PCs didn't. In that game, shadow was treated as just another elemental force, from one of the ten (homebrewed) Inner (Elemental) Planes.

Treating Shadow as a morally- and ethically-neutral force shouldn't be too difficult. If you want to take it further, and make Shadow into something explicitly positive while Light is made explicitly negative, other people have offered some good ideas in that direction.

(Note to self: use fewer parentheses.)

[RTGoodman]

From a mechanical standpoint, you could just look at running the game as a gestalt campaign, but each character has to make one side of his progression Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic (or Swordsage from Tome of Battle focusing on Shadow Hand stuff, but I don't know much about ToB). Or if you want a weaker campaign (i.e., not completely gestalt), give everyone a progression of Shadowcaster mysteries, but not necessarily the full progression unless they actually take levels of Shadowcaster.

[Randel]

Well, one way to see it is that darkness represents privacy, protection, inner examination and health.


For example, in a desert the sun shines down on the world and its rays burn away the water and can kill life. If a person can find shade to protect themselves then they can live and find comfort.

If you are being hunted, a dark place can protect you by not letting your enemies see you.

If can find a dark and quiet place free of distraction, you could spend the time to focus on your own thoughts without things like books, noise, video games etc. to draw your attention away from spiritual health.

Also, rest and relaxation can be a good way to heal after a battle. In a dark room, its easy to go to sleep and let your body heal, healing magic could sort of darken away the external irritants, let the blood cool and calm down and let the body repair itself unhindered.


And to be honest, how can darkness be used to attack someone? It might hide an assailant in the shadows, but you can still hear them. Contorted shadows might be scary to a child who is afraid of the dark but the rational mind learns to avoid over imagination and focus on what is really there. And besides, do you think somebody can actually hurt you with shadow puppets? Darkness is the absence of energy, if anything its safer than all the UV light we are exposed to from that nuclear ball of gas called the sun!

A true master of shadow magic knows how to shield them self from harm, how to move about in the safety of concealment, and how to see the world though touch and smell rather than on mere sight. Introspection and self-analysis are important without the distraction of light, and its important to rest so as to let you heal your body and mind.

[Fishy]

Or you have to put something *very* good in the dark. Healing magic only working in the darkness, etc.

Or maybe *magic* only works in the darkness?

Suppose we live in a subjective universe, and the nature of reality is defined by collective belief- standard fantasy trope. A really powerful mage can alter reality around himself just by sheer strength of will, but if too many people are watching him, inspecting him, doubting him, it just falls apart.

The light isn't truth- because there is no truth- but the light convinces everyone that they know what they're looking at. Light represents everything unquestioned, everything decided, and Shadow represents everything possible. Humans hate the dark because anything could be in there, and out to get them. Mages love the dark because anything could be in there, for them to use.

Jeeze, that's a lot of babble.

[Inyssius Tor]

Oh, now that is an awesome idea. I'm surprised no one has done that before (?)...

[Dhavaer]

I have to say that I really, really like that Inquisition idea.

[random11]

Well, it has occurred to me that most fantasy mediums, the darkness, when it is an actual elemental force, is usually treated as an incredibly bad thing (The Heartless are darkness based, most "Black Magic" is darkness based...the list goes on and on). Since I am a closet lygophilliac (look it up), I decided to give the ol' shadow a bit more respect. So...

How would you, the posters, go about creating a non-evil campaign where all the PCs have darkness/shadow-based powers? How did the party get these? How do they work? Does the Shadow Plane factor in? What should the villains be? How should you treat entities born from darkness? How about ones born from light?

What I was thinking is that a common power among the PCs should be the ability to create, or heal, along with defensive powers. After all, all things were born from darkness, and it protects us from the light, does it not?

If you're talking about metaphorical light and darkness, then nothing can be easier.
Remember that all cultures regard their own laws and morals "good", so all that is left is to create a culture with shadow magic, black magic and stuff like that.


If you're talking about literal light and darkness, then like someone else already mentioned, it's not likely that with the human limitations of night vision, darkness can be seen an something "good". But any subterranean race can easily develop such a culture.

[Khanderas]

I think that for a proper Darkness is good campain you need to have a duality.
As in one world of Light and one world of Darkness. Two sides of one coin but very few races exist naturally on both sides.
Say, elves, might exist on both sides, Light elves on one side, Dark elves on the other (bad example with the Drow bias but try to ignore there ever was a Loth). A lesser version of planeshift can bring you over with allies, and perhaps a few locations where you can just walk to the other side (typically those "open" areas are fortified on both sides).

There would be the occational fight and raiding party and as members of a race from the Dark side, they would see the Light side as the agressors, waging a "holy war" to eradicate the "evil" races. Let the campain begin with peaceful inhabitants in their Fungi growing farm village. Flash of light and Light <race> invades, kills everyone, sets the farmstead aflame and planeshifts back. PC's survive it and the fight is on.

[Khanderas]

Who says vampires and lycanthropes must be evil. Vampires drink blood yes, but only from willing donors whom they pay. Lycanthropes have a refuge where they go during the full moon if they think they might hurt somebody while changed, the refuge is just a big spot of wilderness with well-maintained paths for the lycanthropes to find their way out again.

Farmboy runs away from home to adventure, joins an army and gets infected by Vampirsm. His master destroyed he wanders and homesick he comes home and strikes a deal with his village.
In return for the blood needed to sustain him, he will help defend the village against wild animals and other monsters as well as use his strenghts to aid the village in other ways. He is tired of the outside world and being down to earth as he is from his upbringing he cares not to amass wealth and time as a thrall to the master vampire and in the army has taken the will for bloodshed out of him (other then to feed ofcourse).

or if you dont want the RP emo crap, Wham, BAM, Helm of opposite alignment.

Point is, intresting "villain" for the low to midlevel PC's to take care of. The village trusts him, but the travelling merchants do not (they asked the church to take the vamp out, who responded by hiring the PC's services).

[BRC]

Farmboy runs away from home to adventure, joins an army and gets infected by Vampirsm. His master destroyed he wanders and homesick he comes home and strikes a deal with his village.
In return for the blood needed to sustain him, he will help defend the village against wild animals and other monsters as well as use his strenghts to aid the village in other ways. He is tired of the outside world and being down to earth as he is from his upbringing he cares not to amass wealth and time as a thrall to the master vampire and in the army has taken the will for bloodshed out of him (other then to feed ofcourse).

or if you dont want the RP emo crap, Wham, BAM, Helm of opposite alignment.

Point is, intresting "villain" for the low to midlevel PC's to take care of. The village trusts him, but the travelling merchants do not (they asked the church to take the vamp out, who responded by hiring the PC's services).

One idea I had for a normal DnD Campaign is a group of PC's here about a vampire who commands some undead living in a remote tower so they go and kill him, as they are leaving the tower with their loot abunch of paladins show up and arrest the PC's. The vampire in question was trying to develop an artificial blood substitute and possibly a cure for vampirism, in the meantime living off purchased blood. Due to the potentially toxic nature of some of the chemicals he was working with, and in case he couldn't resist getting some blood firsthand, he used only undead servants and assistants. Those paladins realized the great benefits of this research and were supporting him.

[Leliel]

I have to say that I really, really like that Inquisition idea.

So do I.

Keep those ideas coming, folks.

(And in case you're wondering: I say closet lygophilliac because everyone I know offline doesn't know that I am one.)

[Yakk]

Magic has blasted the surface of the world, and civilization fled under ground.

Those left on the surface become corrupted by the power of the sun.

Shadow is the ability to shield oneself from the light. It allows the safety of darkness to exist on the surface.