Persistent/DMM

[Skjaldbakka]

I am going to be playing in a high-powered game, and am doing this thing. Is there a list somewhere of all the good cleric buffs for use with this combo?

[Dode]

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20spellfilter/

Class: Cleric
Duration: Rounds

That's a generally good start

[Skjaldbakka]

Is 'touch' a fixed range? Can I persist Shield of Faith, for example?

[Armads]

Touch is not a fixed range to persist stuff. However, if you turn it into a ray via Reach spell, you can persist it.

[Skjaldbakka]

Ah, so that is the work-a-round?

[greenknight]

If you're looking for high powered Cleric cheese, look over my Cleric. If I were to ever bother redoing that, I'd probably use Cloistered Cleric as the base class, taken the Trickery Domain over Domination (which I could access via Domain Draught) and maybe taken Human Paragon. I've chosen a few of the most broken spells to DMM: Persist as part of that build.

But unless you're really trying to make a point about just how broken magic can be, I'd strongly advise you against doing anything like this in a real game. It's not really fair to the DM or the other players (again, unless they're all trying to create ridiculously broken builds).

[Skjaldbakka]

But unless you're really trying to make a point about just how broken magic can be, I'd strongly advise you against doing anything like this in a real game. It's not really fair to the DM or the other players (again, unless they're all trying to create ridiculously broken builds).

I did say it was a high-powered game. Meaning this is the type of game where CoDzilla is expected and even encouraged.

[CthulhuM]

Yeah, how high-powered are we talking here? DMM-persistent is the sort of combination that screams "cheese" just about as loudly as is possible without crossing over into Pun-Pun territory. I couldn't see myself ever allowing it this side of severe brain damage.

That said, for pure ridiculousness it's hard to beat a persistent time stop (via trickery domain). Battle going poorly? In need of a rest and maybe a different spell selection? No problem! Just cast your 24-hour time stop and take a nap.

Other than that, constant shapechange (animal domain) is pretty fun, and constant divine power and righteous might aren't bad, if you're into that.

[Skjaldbakka]

Power-level?

The game is starting at 18th level gestalt. From what I know of the DM, we will hit epic level in 3 or 4 sessions, and enemies we face will be chucking around 9th level spells like they are candy. Stat generations was the standard 4d6 drop 1, except all 1s and 2s are rerolled.

My biggest worry is coming up with a counter for MDJ.

As for domains, I am pretty much settled on Suffering and Death, for flavor reasons.

[ZeroNumerous]

That said, for pure ridiculousness it's hard to beat a persistent time stop (via trickery domain). Battle going poorly? In need of a rest and maybe a different spell selection? No problem! Just cast your 24-hour time stop and take a nap.

Not possible. Time Stop has a duration of Instanteous. Anything with 1 round or more can be persisted, but instanteous cannot.

[Kaelik]

Not possible. Time Stop has a duration of Instanteous. Anything with 1 round or more can be persisted, but instanteous cannot.

Actually Time Stop's duration is 1d4+1 rounds.

[greenknight]

My biggest worry is coming up with a counter for MDJ.

The best counter is Gate. In the game that Cleric was created for, I was planning on Gating in a Pseudonatural Spellwarped (from MM3) Mature Adult Force Dragon. If you look around, you could probably find a few more templates to power it up with, but it's disgustingly powerful as is.

And my advice is if it's a really high powered game with ridiculously cheesy characters, don't restrict yourself to just two Domains. Cloistered Cleric adds Knowledge, Divine Oracle adds Oracle, and Contemplative gives you two Domains of your choice (pretty much). Then there's Domain Draughts (MIC) which give you just about any Domain you could want for a day. Remember, each added Domain gives you extra Domain Powers, and you can cast those spells from scrolls if you need to so don't think in terms of one Domain slot per level.

Also, don't forget to totally abuse Miracle. My character combined DMM: Persist abuse with Miracle to get a 24 hour Bite of the Wearbear (SpC). Of course, if you're really feeling evil or just want that ultimate piece of cheese, DMM: Persist Greater Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis) and walk through a typical village. Get your effective caster level up to 34 (from 18) and Gate in a 68HD creature FTW! Now you can make that an ancient Force Dragon, who happens to be a 30th level caster, btw. While you're browsing through LM, buy lots of Nightsticks to power up all those DMM: Persists you'll be doing. Always remember, as a Cleric With Cheese, you don't worship a God, you become one!

[ZeroNumerous]

Actually Time Stop's duration is 1d4+1 rounds.

FAQ.

Q: Assuming you are high enough level to cast a persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells?

A: You can't make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)

[martyboy74]

Actually Time Stop's duration is 1d4+1 rounds.

No, it's 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. It doesn't work. The thing's been ruled on in the FAQ.

[Kaelik]

I never said that it could be Persisted. I only said that it's duration is 1d4+1 rounds. It is. Nowhere in the duration does it say instantaneous. That they decided to attempt a stealth errata in the FAQ has nothing to do with the duration being 1d4+1 rounds. Yes they are "apparent" rounds. They are still rounds.

[CthulhuM]

Hey, if you're actually allowing persistent-DMM, I see no reason not to allow persistent time stop. By the rules as stated, it works - the fact that they decided to make an unexplained exception for it in an online FAQ that never made it into actual errata documents is kinda beside the point.

Oh and Skjaldbakka, you're taking leadership, right? Your swarms of low-level cleric minions will come in very handy once you start casting epic spells and need people to contribute spell-slots to lower the DCs.

[Temp]

Hey, if you're actually allowing persistent-DMM, I see no reason not to allow persistent time stop.

Maybe for the sake of a balanced game?

And yes, it could be a balanced game within a higher-than-"normal" power frame.

[F.L.]

Hmm, is there any way to persist implosion?

[Ramza00]

Power-level?

The game is starting at 18th level gestalt. From what I know of the DM, we will hit epic level in 3 or 4 sessions, and enemies we face will be chucking around 9th level spells like they are candy. Stat generations was the standard 4d6 drop 1, except all 1s and 2s are rerolled.

My biggest worry is coming up with a counter for MDJ.

As for domains, I am pretty much settled on Suffering and Death, for flavor reasons.

A slightly modified build idea
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=180
Take a dip into Sacred Exorcist on the Archivist side for DMM. Also Epic Hatharn in PGTF and the original 3.0 version gives epic bonus feats every 2 levels instead of 3.

Archivist Handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=902149

Factotum Handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3.../frcc/20070606

Various Persistent threads
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=136060
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=477252
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=407298
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=648019

[Skjaldbakka]

Oh and Skjaldbakka, you're taking leadership, right? Your swarms of low-level cleric minions will come in very handy once you start casting epic spells and need people to contribute spell-slots to lower the DCs.

Leadership, or some PrC equivalent, is in fact required. It is an Evil Overlord game. I really hope we aren't using the epic spell rules. I would be prefectly happy with higher level spell slots.


Anyone have any suggestions for stopping MDJ from knocking out all my spell buffs?

[daggaz]

Another popular one is to persist Righteous Might and Divine Favor if you can use the str bonus. Toss in a persisted miracle for giant size, and you are in business as far as melee destruction is concerned.

[Grynning]

I started a thread on MDJ a few days ago, basically the suggestions for stopping it included a) counter-spelling it (through various means, ring of spell battle is a good idea, you could also take the feat that lets you convert turn attempts into counters, I think it's in FCII) and b) carrying around tons of minor artifacts to turn yourself into a bomb that no one would want to touch with an MDJ.

[Skjaldbakka]

What book is ring of spell battle in? It seems like the perfect tool for the job.

[Grynning]

Complete Arcane. It works best if you're already built for counterspelling (e.g. high spellcraft rank). It only works once per day, but it's very nice because you can redirect the spell instead of countering it if you want.

[Jasdoif]

Touch is not a fixed range to persist stuff. However, if you turn it into a ray via Reach spell, you can persist it.

No, you can't. You can't persist a spell whose effects are discharged, and you most certainly have to discharge a ray in order to hit someone with it.

[Armads]

I think it's in the MIC.

[namo]

I think there are unspeakable tricks that allow you to persist any spell, using in particular Ocular Spell from Lords of Madness.

edit: Greater Visage of the Deity (SC) and Choose Destiny (RoD) are amazing spells to persist.

[Temp]

I don't think it's been mentioned (and ctrl+f is confirming this belief), but Miracle--Bite of the Werebear is always a good 'un.

...And there's Unearthly Beauty (BoED), Golem Immunity (RoE), Stormrage (CDiv), Miracle--Earthglide (RoS)

[Jack_Simth]

That said, for pure ridiculousness it's hard to beat a persistent time stop (via trickery domain). Battle going poorly? In need of a rest and maybe a different spell selection? No problem! Just cast your 24-hour time stop and take a nap.

That doesn't work for a cleric because they have to prepare spells at a particular time of day ... which doesn't come around if time is standing still. For a Wizard/Incatatrix, though ....

As for good spells?

Righteous Might (5th; Size Boost, +4 Size to Strength, +2 Size to Con, +2 Enhancement to Natural Armor, DR), Divine Power (4th; BAB = Character Level, +6 Enhancement to Strength, 1 temporary HP per caster level), Divine Favor (1st level spell - +1 Luck to attack/damage per 3 caster levels, min +1, max +3) make a good combo.

If you want to go all day, throw in one of the mass versions of Vigor - Vigorous Circle, maybe, to give the entire party fast healing all day (and keep people from asking for healing). Not only do you out-fight the Fighter, you can keep it up longer, too - and support HIM while you're at it.

Antilife Shell is an interesting one to Persist (especially combined with the above and a Reach weapon) as it means very little can close with you.

Depending on your alignment, Cloak of Chaos / Shield of Law / Holy Aura / Unholy Aura are very useful (and apply to the entire party - 20 foot radius burst, centered on you). +4 Resistance to saves and +4 Deflection, with SR 25 vs. a particular type of thing? Very useful.

You'll probably want a Ring of Counterspelling, loaded with Greater Dispel Magic, and a nice Peripat of Wisdom (or a Belt of Magnificence). Otherwise, though, about the only item you need is a metric ton of Nightsticks....

[Armads]

Remember to always Extend your persisted buffs, so as you save spell slots and turn attempts for the next day. Also, using Miracle to persist an Owl's Insight gives a huge bonus to wisdom that stacks with periapts of wisdom.