Master of Dragonfire Flies

[Gruftzwerg]

Inspired by a recent thread about Master of Flies I wanted to make an optimized fun build. Those who dislike lil creepy things or are scared should avoid this thread. Everybody else, let's have fun!

White Dragonwrought Desert Kobold (DWK)

DFA 6 / Sorcerer 1 / Master of Flies 8 / Warshaper 5

Starting Stats: (32Points)
Str: 14 (14 base -4 racial +4 from psychosis)
Dex: 12 (10 base + 2 racial)
Con: 16*
Int: 12 (9 base + 3 from age/DWK)
Wis: 10 (13 base + 3 from age/DWK -2 racial -4 from psychosis)
Cha: 18 (15 base +3 from age/DWK)
* buff as much as you can: +5 from lvl + 5 from Wish + 6 from item = 32 Con (+11 modifier)


Feats:
1. Dragonwrought Kobold (White: +2 racial bonus to Balance)
3. Entangling Breath
6. Quick Change
9. Improved Dragon Wings (thx to being a dragon, we automatically qualify for anything that requires dragonblood subtype)
12. Fly-by-Attack
15. Natural Spell
18. Combat Reflexes or Wingstorm (neither is really mandatory. you could even pick something else)


Skills:
Knowledge (Nature): min. 8 ranks
Escape Artist: min. 5 ranks (@ lvl 7 due to being a cross-class skill)
Concentration: max ranks
Balance: min. 5 ranks (Draconic Heritage from DFA makes this a class skill for all classes)


DFA ability choices:
1: Draconic Heritage feat (white) - gives balance as class skill
1: Endure Exposure (invocation) - Endure Elements + immune to your breath
2: Cold Cone Breath - deals cold damage
3: Magic Insight (invocation) - Detect Magic at will + Identify items
5: Slow Breath - applies slow for 2 rounds on failed save and 1 round if he did succeed the save
6: Humanoid Shape - enables you to turn into a large sized Hornhead Saurial

Sorcerer 1st lvl Spells known:
Path of Frost - similar to grease. white dragons can cast is at swift action!
Strength of the True Form - immediate action spell that lets you use the better stats of either your real or changed form for 1 round

Sorcerer ACF Poltergeist: Frost Fingers

Spoiler: Frost Fingers

Show

Frost Fingers (Su): Often belabored for your clumsiness as a child, it sometimes seems as if your merest touch causes objects to shatter and crack. Whenever you first touch an object with a hardness of 2 or less it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Charisma modifier) or take damage equal to your Charisma modifier. This damage ignores hardness. If the item makes its saving throw or endures the damage you may handle it normally thereafter.

Spells lost: Ray of frost and touch of fatigue.

Draconic Rite of Passage:
We pick Mage Armor as SLA 1/day. Since it scales with effective character lvl as caster level the single use will still cover most of the day at later levels.

Ravening Psychosis
We assume that DWK are True Dragons by RAW. This psychosis alters the build in some funny ways (with ups and downs).

First we have simple ability score adjustment (+4STR, -4WIS).

(Unnatural Power) Than our breath weapon can now only be used 3 rounds in a row and get the typical cooldown of 1d4 rounds after that (which would qualify us for metabreaths, but that ain't our aim here).

(Wild Power) A "fire shield" like ability damages anyone who attacks the dragon for 1d6 + caster lvl (15max.) (we use the caster lvl of kobold's Draconic Rite of Passage since it scales with effective character lvls).

(Eat of Die [Ex]) Finally we get to the silly ability the build is aiming for:

Spoiler: EAT OR DIE (Ex)

Show

A ravening dragon must consume an enormous quantity of food- much more than a typical dragon needs. Each day, a ravening dragon must eat an amount of creatures of a body mass equal to its own or take 1 point of Constitution drain, as the elemental powers fueling its body destroy it from within. Assign each creature the dragon consumes a food point value according to its size category, as Fol¬ lows: Diminutive or Fine o, Tiny 1/16, Small 1/4, Medium 1, Large 4, Huge 16, Gargantuan 64, Colossal 256, if the dragon has not consumed food points equal to the value indicated for its size by the end of the day, it suffers the Constitution dram. If it has suffered from the ravening disorder for some time, assume that it has lost id6-i points of Constitution already from occasional missed meals.
When well fed, a ravening dragon might seek out new hunting grounds or attempt to secure an area it already controls. The creature can exercise patience and cunning during such times, just like a normal dragon. However, if it has gone for a day without eating enough, it loses control and goes directly after any prey capable of sus¬ taining it. Up to twice per day, a raven¬ ing dragon out of control can attempt a Wisdom check (DC 10 + 2 per day with¬ out sufficient food). Success allows it to regain control for 1 hour; failure leaves it in a frenzied state. While out of con¬ trol, the dragon must make a successful Concentration check (DC 15 4 spell level) each time it tries to cast a spell or lose the spell. Once it has eaten enough food for the days i? missed meals, it regains its composure.

__________________________

Recommended Items

I'll only showcase build specific item suggestion and not the standard stuff that you would always buy.

Ring of Growth:
Lets you grow one size category (medium kobold or huge Hornhead Saurial). Together with MoF 8 we can now shape into a colossal swarm (from huge Hornhead Saurial).

Crown of the North Wind:
Gives some options to change the breath type into that of a metallic dragon. e.g. Turn your cold breath (DFA 2nd lvl) into a Paralyzing Breath (as silver dragons).

Ring of Spellstoring:
Get a raven familiar (Sorcerer) and cast Path of Frost into the ring. Let your familiar assist you with forcing the enemies into balance checks.

Pectoral of Maneuverability:
Improves maneuverability for flying to the next step (good in our chase).

__________________________

The build starts as a very hungry Ravenous DWK Kobold who is good at entangling and slowing his enemies with his breath. The single lvl of Sorcerer adds a lil to the battlefield control. But this changes over time when the abilities start to synergize.

MoF's swarm forms Distraction ability is CON based. "Strength of the True Form" allows to use our own CON while shaped (immediate action, 1 round duration). Combined with +4 from warshaper and any other boost you can find (lvlUp, items, Wish..) we can up the DC very high.

For those who have a good saves, Path of Frost is a good alternative to annoy em with balance checks.

When in swarm form, Frost Fingers (SU) will try to destroy anything with a hardness of 2 or less (up to leather/hide) what shares the space with us. This includes most light to medium armor types, robes, spell books and Spell Component Pouches.

Fly-by-Attack allows us to reposition before using the breath weapon and than to reposition for the swarm attack at the end of the turn.

Improved Dragon Wings allows us to fly at 30 feet (average maneuverability) in any form (including the normally crippled swarm forms).

Warshaper adds some nice defensive buffs along with Fast Healing. This makes the swarm form especially hard to kill. Morphic weapons is imho just a funny (but strong) gimmick for this build.

Finally (@lvl 20) we get Flashmorph (Humanoid Shape now free action with Quick Change) and Multimorph (for Swarm Shape). This gives the maximum amount of flexibility to shift between forms as desired.

__________________________

If you ever wanted to play a pest themed character here you go. Eat anything eatable in your path (EAT OR DIE!-ability) and destroy anything left over (Frost Fingers). The build would also shine in any kind of eating contest. If you ever should come into a situation where you need to eat your way out, this Kobold will handle it!

I hope I didn't missed anything. I would appreciate some feedback and any kind of questions/critique/comments are welcome =)

edit: typos

[Particle_Man]

Is the composition of your swarm up to you? Because being a swarm of dragonflies would be thematically appropriate and just cool.

[Gruftzwerg]

Is the composition of your swarm up to you? Because being a swarm of dragonflies would be thematically appropriate and just cool.

Yeah, I know what you mean^^
But sadly the swarm shape ability is limited to Spiders, Centipedes and Locusts.
An option would be to fluff the locusts with their (Improved) Dragon Wings as dragonflies. I mean, their type is still dragon (due to the DWK feat)

[Doctor Despair]

Are you using the 3.0 Quick Change? It was errata'd in 3.5 to be Changeling only. :/

[Gruftzwerg]

Are you using the 3.0 Quick Change? It was errata'd in 3.5 to be Changeling only. :/

yeah I use the 3.0 version since MoF and Quick Change are from the same book (SS). Imho it wouldn't make any sense to sole limit the prc to Changelings due to the 3.5 conversation..

[loky1109]

Are you using the 3.0 Quick Change? It was errata'd in 3.5 to be Changeling only. :/

I don't think it was errata. Only same name.

[lylsyly]

love the concept but 2 quick points.

Improved dragon wings requires dragon wings.

why not take the greater rite of draconic passage and gain an effective sorcerer level?

[Gruftzwerg]

love the concept but 2 quick points.

Improved dragon wings requires dragon wings.

why not take the greater rite of draconic passage and gain an effective sorcerer level?

1. As said, there is a rule that "dragons" automatically qualify for any feat that requires "dragonblooded". Improved Dragon Wings is such a feat.

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.

Thus as a dragon you automatically quality for Improved Dragon Wings.

2. Because there is no real benefit (due to the extra feat requirement). Mage Armor has a duration of h/clvl and the SLA has clvl = effective character lvl and thus doesn't really profit that much from 2 additional uses at lvl 18 (18h duration). The 2nd lvl progression of Sorcerer only gives a single 0th lvl spell. And one additional 0th and 1st lvl spell slot ain't that great either. A simple Ring of Spellstoring offers more benefits for less character build resources invested (feat>gold).

___

Thx everybody for the feedback so far. <3
More feedback is still welcome. ^^

[loky1109]

1. As said, there is a rule that "dragons" automatically qualify for any feat that requires "dragonblooded". Improved Dragon Wings is such a feat.

And you read this as "doesn't need meet any other prerequisites". Do you understand where you did mistake?

[Gruftzwerg]

And you read this as "doesn't need meet any other prerequisites". Do you understand where you did mistake?

Sorry, but imho you are the one making the mistake here.

The text doesn't say that "a dragon automatically counts as dragonblooded",
nor does it say "a dragon ignores the dragonblooded requirement".

It says " Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype".
As I said, any class, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype, can be automatically qualified for.

______________________

Imho the difference is obvious here. I'm not arguing about the designer intentions (RAI) here. By Rules As Written(RAW) this is imho the most correct interpretation. This is theoretical optimization which doesn't has a DM to ask and as such relies sole on a RAW interpretation for theoretical optimization fun. Nothing more, nothing less. RAW is not an advice how you should play out the Rules at you table. It's just a base construct for forum/discussion purposes. And by RAW "you automatically qualify for ...(now it names possible targets where it applies to).. that requires the dragonblood subtype (and gives an extra condition when it does apply)".

[loky1109]

Bad wording, yes!
Let show me any DM whom will allow that reading.

This definitely isn't RAI. And every sentient DM should agree with it.

This is obvious mistake. TO based on so mistaked ground... This isn't crime, but who do you want to cheat? You found one more stupid hole. Hooray?
Even in TO this shouldn't work.

Let's look at DRAGON WINGS:

Prerequisites: Dragonblood subtype, 1st level only.
Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. A kobold with the Dragonwrought feat can take this feat at 3rd level.

If all work as you say, this special exception isn't needed.

[Gruftzwerg]

Bad wording, yes!
Let show me any DM whom will allow that reading.

This definitely isn't RAI. And every sentient DM should agree with it.

This is obvious mistake. TO based on so mistaked ground... This isn't crime, but who do you want to cheat?
Even in TO this shouldn't work.

Let's look at DRAGON WINGS:

If all work as you say, this special exception isn't needed.

To is just for fun in the forum and for rule lawyers. It has nothing to do with a real DM.

And yeah, by RAW that line in "Dragon Wings" is not necessary and the Kobold could take it even later. The sentence is not contradicting the general rules for dragons (that they automatically qualify).
Sorry, RAW doesn't care for bad editing skills from the authors. Or better said, RAW shows the abuse potential due to bad editing. Do you think the designers intended "Healing by drowning"? Or that a lvl 1 Kobold (with the name Pun-Pun) can become omnipotent and stronger than anything else in existence? No, but RAW-nerds like to point out these silly things^^
I mean, I do hope that the next generation of rule authors will get better at this to prevent such silly situations. And for that, as many people as possible need to experience the results of bad editing at first hand (welcome to TO^^). This is a very good example of this.
Real life laws also work on a RAW basis and cause sometimes similar silly results due to the same problem. So the same can be said here. The more people learn how RAW works and how you edit text to prevent silly outcomes, the lesser we have to face silly results due to real life RAW abuse at the court.
I'm totally sure that this is not RAI, but the RAW discipline explicitly doesn't care for that "intention" part and just tries to have fun..^^

[loky1109]

This isn't even pore RAW legitimate.
My quote from dragon wings feat is exception. And this exception proves existing of the more general rule. And this rule say that you are wrong.
I understand TO, but when TO starting to look on wrong written comma, or mistake in spell known (21 1st level spells on the first level, because 1 isn't superior figure due typo) it is bad manner. This isn't TO, this is mockery.

[Gruftzwerg]

This isn't even pore RAW legitimate.
My quote from dragon wings feat is exception. And this exception proves existing of the more general rule. And this rule say that you are wrong.
I understand TO, but when TO starting to look on wrong written comma, or mistake in spell known (21 1st level spells on the first level, because 1 isn't superior figure due typo) it is bad manner. This isn't TO, this is mockery.

If you understand TO and RAW, than you should understand also how the Primary Source Rule (see any ERRATA) works. The PSR dictates the rule hierarchy and due to this, the Dragon Wing feat could at best create a specific exception to the general rule (dragons automatically qualify for dragonbooded things..) for its own niche (it can't create general rules for dragonblooded). But since it doesn't contradict the general rule, by RAW it can only be seen as friendly reminder.

It's a good indicator for the intention (RAI) behind it (and I would agree with your interpretation). But not for a sole RAW/TO based point of view.

[lylsyly]

line from the dragon wings feat - "Your draconic ancestry manifests as a pair of wings that aid your jumps and allow you to glide."

line from the improved dragon wings feat - "Your draconic wings now grant you flight."

nowhere does it say it grants you wings.

prerequisite for improved dragon wings = dragon wings

races of the dragon page 4 sidebar - "dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

Nowhere in that paragraph does it state that you may ignore prerequisites.

what you're doing isn't RAW. It isn't even RAI. and if it flies at your table i want to play there.

[Gruftzwerg]

line from the dragon wings feat - "Your draconic ancestry manifests as a pair of wings that aid your jumps and allow you to glide."

line from the improved dragon wings feat - "Your draconic wings now grant you flight."

nowhere does it say it grants you wings

Nowhere does the "Benefit:" of Improved Dragon Wings (IDW) say that you use your wings to fly by RAW. The name of the ability doesn't provide any rules from a RAW point of view. By RAW, IDW gives you a fly speed of 30 and adds some restrictions until you reach 12HD. Yeah it's bad mannered RAW, but it is RAW. (remind you, I don't suggest anyone to play like this. this is TO and nothing else)

races of the dragon page 4 sidebar - "dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

Nowhere in that paragraph does it state that you may ignore prerequisites.

RAW:

The sentence you quoted does automatically qualify any dragon for anything that requires dragonblood subtype.

You can break the sentence's structure into two parts. The first part explains what you get and the second part explains the limitation.

"dragons automatically qualify for any XXX that require the dragonblood subtype."
..doesn't equal...
"dragons qualify for any XXX as if they would have the dragonblood subtype."

"dragons automatically qualify for any XXX" indicates that you qualify (= meet the requirements) for XXX, and not that you count as having dragonblood subtype.



RAI:
You have to keep in mind that this rule is primary intended to give (true) dragons easy access to dragonblood related stuff.
The fluff behind "dragonblood subtype" related stuff is that those who have a tiny bit of dragonblood try to unlock (prerequisites) the powers of their dragon ancestors. A dragon is already a dragon and thus doesn't need to unlock anything here ( = automatically qualifies), he just need to invest the time/resources to get the desired dragon ability (spend the feat, spend xp for lvlUp..).
Your interpretation would cause true dragons to waste a bunch of class lvls to get even the simplest dragonblood related stuff. Remember how hard it is for a true dragon to gain lvls compared to the regular PC races. Imho it is logical that real dragons have an easier time to pick up dragonblood related stuff compared to some far related wannabe dragon breeds (dragonblood subtype).

[lylsyly]

line from the dragon wings feat - "Your draconic ancestry manifests as a pair of wings that aid your jumps and allow you to glide."

line from the improved dragon wings feat - "Your draconic wings now grant you flight."

nowhere does it say it grants you wings.

prerequisite for improved dragon wings = dragon wings

races of the dragon page 4 sidebar - "dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

Nowhere in that paragraph does it state that you may ignore prerequisites.

what you're doing isn't RAW. It isn't even RAI. and if it flies at your table i want to play there.

The Primary Source for dragon type taking dragonblooded things, the dragonwrought feat, the dragon wings feat, and the improved dragon wings feat is Races of the Dragon. Since Specific Trumps General the prerequisite of dragons wings for the improved dragon wings feat is in fact a reality.

From Dragon Wings "Your draconic ancestry MANIFESTS AS A PAIR OF WINGS that aid your jumps and allow you to glide."

From Improved Dragon Wings "Your draconic WINGS NOW grant you flight.

From Improved Dragon Wings "Prerequisite: dragon wings, 6HD, dragonblood subtype"

How is this not RAW and correct??

[Gruftzwerg]

The Primary Source for dragon type taking dragonblooded things, the dragonwrought feat, the dragon wings feat, and the improved dragon wings feat is Races of the Dragon. Since Specific Trumps General the prerequisite of dragons wings for the improved dragon wings feat is in fact a reality.

From Dragon Wings "Your draconic ancestry MANIFESTS AS A PAIR OF WINGS that aid your jumps and allow you to glide."

From Improved Dragon Wings "Your draconic WINGS NOW grant you flight.

From Improved Dragon Wings "Prerequisite: dragon wings, 6HD, dragonblood subtype"

How is this not RAW and correct??

Because the text part you quoted ("Your draconic WINGS NOW grant you flight") is not declared as part of the rules by RAW. It is commonly (and sometimes even in the rule books) referred as "fluff text".

Have a look at the Feat description format:

Feat Descriptions

Here is the format for feat descriptions.

Feat Name [Type Of Feat]

Prerequisite

A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or a class level that a character must have in order to acquire this feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.


Benefit

What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.


Normal

What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.
It's not part of the effect, not part of the special effect of the feat. The Prerequisites gets ignored due to the dragons automatically qualify rule and wouldn't have an impact of the effect of the rule anyway.
Which leaves us with the "Benefit:" that just gives you a fly speed of 30ft with the mentioned restrictions until you hit 12HD or more.

Special

Additional facts about the feat that may be helpful when you decide whether to acquire the feat.

Since the sentence you quoted ain't part of the rule-relevant subcategories (see quote) of a feat, it is fluff text with no impact on the rules by RAW. Sorry.. I know,.. it is not intuitive, but that is the world of RAW.
That being said, RAI you have a fair point, and for actual play I would maybe even agree with you.

___________________

As a sidenote regarding "Primary Source". There ain't just only Book Supremacy. There is also Topic Supremacy. Which means each topic is a primary source for itself (its own topic..) and anything that makes use of it. As shown above in our example. The "Feat Description" page/paragraph is the Primary Source that provides the rules how to read feats. Primary and secondary source ain't tags that are set in stone. They are flexible tags that depends on the situation.

E.g. "A" can be primary to "B", while at the same time "C" is primary to "A" in a single situation. It all depends on the hierarchy set between the interacting things you are comparing.
Lets take Power Attack as example. The general rules for attacking are primary to Power Attack. But Power Attack is at the same time primary compared to Power Attack related stuff (e.g. Leap Attack).

[lylsyly]

I still don't and never will buy it but whatever. Even TO builds stick to RAW, even if it's with triple cheese ;-)

[Gruftzwerg]

I still don't and never will buy it but whatever. Even TO builds stick to RAW, even if it's with triple cheese ;-)

I tried to explain how this is sticking strictly to RAW. This is the same lvl as "healing by drowning". We all know how silly it is, but that doesn't change that it is 100% RAW. But never mind. This won't be the last TO discussion about ambiguous rules.
Until next time...
(atm I have 2 almost finished TO builds:a Dvati Sorcerer, an Itachi Uchiha adaptation, and half a dozen build concepts that still need to be fleshed out..) ;)

[lylsyly]

You do TO, I don't. Like I said, I don't buy it. By your definition a spiked felldrake from draconomicon, a wingless dragon type with +2 LA can get a fly speed by taking the improved dragon wings feat. You say the word wings is Fluff. And I disagree. A rainbow servant having to go to the jungle and find the winged snakes is fluff, the same as an assasin has to intentionally murder someone. But the fact that the feat says "your WINGS now grant you flight"??? I don't see that as fluff and never will. I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you ;-)

I would like to see your take on the Dvati Sorcerer. I have tried to make something decent with that race and never been happy with the results

[InvisibleBison]

Because the text part you quoted ("Your draconic WINGS NOW grant you flight") is not declared as part of the rules by RAW. It is commonly (and sometimes even in the rule books) referred as "fluff text".

Have a look at the Feat description format:


Since the sentence you quoted ain't part of the rule-relevant subcategories (see quote) of a feat, it is fluff text with no impact on the rules by RAW. Sorry.. I know,.. it is not intuitive, but that is the world of RAW.
That being said, RAI you have a fair point, and for actual play I would maybe even agree with you.

I'm not convinced this is correct. The SRD excerpt you quoted leaves out a line from the PHB (the primary source for how feats work), which says that the text above the prerequisites is a "[d]escription of what the feat does or represents in plain language." (p. 89) Note that it doesn't say the description is not rules text; I don't see any justification for dismissing it as fluff. Compare to how the Spell Compendium explicitly calls out the italicized descriptive passages as not being rules (p. 3).

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not convinced this is correct. The SRD excerpt you quoted leaves out a line from the PHB (the primary source for how feats work), which says that the text above the prerequisites is a "[d]escription of what the feat does or represents in plain language." (p. 89) Note that it doesn't say the description is not rules text; I don't see any justification for dismissing it as fluff. Compare to how the Spell Compendium explicitly calls out the italicized descriptive passages as not being rules (p. 3).

plain language != rule text

Plain language doesn't equal to relevant rule text. That is the reason why it is not part of RAW. If you want to argue that this is relevant rule text, it would cause several feats, spells and other stuff to become dysfunctional, since the plain language differs often from the rule mechanics to some degree.

The SRD did cut almost the entire "fluff text" away since it is not relevant to the game (and sometimes only confuses the players/DM). Another indicator that those text parts are not RAW but mere fluff text.

As said, it is bad mannered TO and equally silly as "Healing by Drowning", but it is RAW.

[loky1109]

I tried to explain how this is sticking strictly to RAW. This is the same lvl as "healing by drowning".
This won't be the last TO discussion about ambiguous rules.

There aren't any ambiguous here. Looking for unequivocally wrong interpretation of rules isn't TO. Both your examples: topic and healing by drowning aren't TO. Pun-pun is. But Pun-pun doesn't base on wrong interpretation. There are all right. Yes, he is result of unexpected combination of different abilities. But there are no mistakes. Difference between abuse obvious mistakes and abuse unexpected combos is very significant.
Author looking on Pun-pun may say: I didn't expect this.
Author looking on "healing by drowning" say: This is bull****!

Your method isn't silly, it is lazy and insipid.

[InvisibleBison]

plain language != rule text

Plain language doesn't equal to relevant rule text. That is the reason why it is not part of RAW. If you want to argue that this is relevant rule text, it would cause several feats, spells and other stuff to become dysfunctional, since the plain language differs often from the rule mechanics to some degree.

The SRD did cut almost the entire "fluff text" away since it is not relevant to the game (and sometimes only confuses the players/DM). Another indicator that those text parts are not RAW but mere fluff text.

As said, it is bad mannered TO and equally silly as "Healing by Drowning", but it is RAW.

Do you have any actual quotes from the rules to back up any of this, or is it all just your opinion?

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you have any actual quotes from the rules to back up any of this, or is it all just your opinion?

"Plain Language" is imho defined this way by common sense. When I try to explain technically difficult stuff in plain language, there will be always the risk of a misunderstanding because of the lack of technical terms.

Imagine this:
If you have an exam at school, the teacher expects you to use the technical right terms. If you use plain language, you fail the expectation. The teacher might have even used the same terms during lesson to give you an first impression of the topic. But that doesn't change that it not relevant for the exam. Because in an exam only the "Words as Written" count and not "your intention behind the words". And plain langue doesn't help you here.

The same can be said about RAW vs. RAI

RAW is similiar. Only those parts that are defined as actual rule text (in our chase Prerequisites, Benefit: & Special:) remain as relevant rule text. The fluff text (in plain language) should give you just a fist impression and the actual statement doesn't need to hold water.

[InvisibleBison]

"Plain Language" is imho defined this way by common sense. When I try to explain technically difficult stuff in plain language, there will be always the risk of a misunderstanding because of the lack of technical terms.

Imagine this:
If you have an exam at school, the teacher expects you to use the technical right terms. If you use plain language, you fail the expectation. The teacher might have even used the same terms during lesson to give you an first impression of the topic. But that doesn't change that it not relevant for the exam. Because in an exam only the "Words as Written" count and not "your intention behind the words". And plain langue doesn't help you here.

The same can be said about RAW vs. RAI

RAW is similiar. Only those parts that are defined as actual rule text (in our chase Prerequisites, Benefit: & Special:) remain as relevant rule text. The fluff text (in plain language) should give you just a fist impression and the actual statement doesn't need to hold water.

In other words, you don't have any actual rules to back up your assertions and this build isn't purely RAW.

[Gruftzwerg]

In other words, you don't have any actual rules to back up your assertions and this build isn't purely RAW.

Let me ask you this. When was the last time you took the fluff text of a race or class as argument that these are rules? These are also plain language descriptions. I'm not further going to explain you what is considered RAW. The fact that the entire SRD did strip off almost the entire unnecessary fluff text and common sense (as described above) backs my statement up.

If I would follow your logic, lets have a look at simple things like:

Half Elf Appearance:

Half-elf men are taller and heavier than half-elf women, but the difference is less pronounced than that found among humans.

Now I'm going to demand that no half-elf women may be taller or heavier than any other half-elf men in existence. Cause you know, it stands in the book and thus has to be rule text. It's a clear polarized statement..

You see where this ends?

No, just because something stands in the book in text form doesn't turn it into rule text.

[InvisibleBison]

Let me ask you this. When was the last time you took the fluff text of a race or class as argument that these are rules?

I've never done that, because the PHB says not to do that:

Remember, however, that these descriptions apply only to the majority of each race's members. In each race, some individuals diverge from the norm, and your character could be one of those. Don't let a description of a race keep you from detailing your character as you like.

These descriptions [of classes] are general; individual members of a class may differ in their attitudes, outlooks, and other aspects.

These are also plain language descriptions.

Yes, they are, and the rules explicitly say as much. They don't say the same thing about feat descriptions.

The fact that the entire SRD did strip off almost the entire unnecessary fluff text and common sense (as described above) backs my statement up.

What the SRD does or doesn't say is irrelevant. The PHB is the primary source for how feats work, and it doesn't say anything about feat description not being rules. Thus, feat descriptions are rules.

If I would follow your logic, lets have a look at simple things like:

Half Elf Appearance:
Now I'm going to demand that no half-elf women may be taller or heavier than any other half-elf men in existence. Cause you know, it stands in the book and thus has to be rule text. It's a clear polarized statement..

There's a clear difference between descriptive statements about trends among large populations and prescriptive statements about properties of individuals. Moreover, the text you quoted is from the racial descriptions in chapter 2 of the PHB, which the text explicitly calls out as not being rules.

No, just because something stands in the book in text form doesn't turn it into rule text.

True. But the text explicitly calls out the sections that aren't rules, and no such statement exists concerning feat descriptions.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yes, they are, and the rules explicitly say as much. They don't say the same thing about feat descriptions.

That is what we have been arguing about..
That the sentence your interpretation of Improved Dragon Wings relies on the sentence that is declared as:

Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language.

So, class & race descriptions may have "plain language" that are clearly not rules in you opinion, but when it comes to feat description "plain language" creates rules? If that is you stance, no wonder that whatever I say I will never convince you if you don't treat things (plain language) equal.^^


Explaining complex things (e.g. rules) always will always require specific technical terms to be precise and correct. But at the same time, you will always need "plain language" to give someone who is new to the topic their first impression. But "plain language" will never be enough to give reliable precise answers (or rules). In the end, sole text that is declared as part of the mechanics and that uses precise technical terms is relevant. If you see a total lack of technical terms, you can assume that it is fluff, but here we even have the evidence that it is "Plain Language".