OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Wraithfighter]

We can play this game all day long. They burned down their house, camped outside of hers, and talked about how to pick the locks and find the matches. Only then did they get hit with the "no trespassers" gun. And they knew about the "this means you" clause. Notwithstanding that they swore to protect the very thing they tried to destroy, and also swore to never go to hers, of course. But hey, you want Serini to twirl her mustache of idiocy so it's perfectly fine to ignore every actually valid concern that she has just so you can be happy with hwo you've already judged her. You do you, man. I certainly won't be able to stop you.

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

The point is that her actions are not logical. She claims she wants to prevent the world from being destroyed and that Xykon cannot be stopped, but if that were the case, she would have just given him the Gate on arrival, that way no one would have time to destroy it before he could take it, because to her that's the only way that he could be stopped.

So, either she thinks that there's some "non-destroy-the-world" manner in which Xykon could be stopped, which she's given zero indications of so we can probably dismiss that as a realistic possibility, she thinks some sort of hail mary will come around to save everything, which doesn't seem to be the case because OOTS is giving her plenty of signs that this is the hail mary she'd have been waiting for, she earnestly thinks that her Gate's defenses will stall Xykon out indefinitely, which is a terrible plan...

...or she's paralyzed by fear and indecision, because she doesn't want Xykon to win, but doesn't know a way for Xykon to not win, and can only see all the ways in which the actions by others will make things fall to pot and, as Roy's father put it, she's the highest level PC in the area, its her battle to lose, so why can't she think of something, think of anything, at least, at least if she stops these rubes from getting involved she can buy more time, yeah, buy more time, maybe she'll think of something later, maybe something else will come up...

That's where I'm seeing her at, in terms of the big picture. And the end result of all of that is that she's helping Xykon win, because every one of her actions does nothing but make that more likely. It doesn't matter that there's other things she could do that would make it certain that he'd win, just that every time she's gotten involved with the Paladins and the Order of the Stick, the result has been in Xykon's favor.

[Hurkyl]

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.

To be fair, Roy was playing along with his lawyer's defense strategy, so we can't be certain how completely truthful Roy is being.

He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.

I agree. For example, I find certainly in the realm of plausibility that Roy could find himself of the opinion

• The gods are capable of isolating the snarl in the prime material plane and protecting the rest of the multiverse should the last gate be destroyed.
• The gods would be too tied up in their red tape to act preemptively should Team Evil start the ritual.

and thus feel compelled to trigger the first option to save the rest of the multiverse.

[Mariele]

Okay, now I feel sorry for the poor halfling lady.

(Makes me wonder how she'd feel about the news that Soon almost killed Xykon and Redcloak.)

And V mysteriously killing the entire Draketooth clan with one spell, but still not being able to kill Xykon and Redcloak. :P

Poor Serini. This definitely fits in with her defeatist comment about enjoying existing.

[Peelee]

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

And that's the kicker. Some of her decision making is irrational, sure. Like believing that Xykon cannot be beaten. Some of it is rational, though, like believing that a group that destroyed multiple Gates to prevent Xykon from getting them may destroy hers to prevent Xykon from getting them. This is not outlandish - again, the Sapphire Guard, whose entire existance was (at the risk of being tautological) to guard the sapphire, tried to destroy it instead, despite knowing that it was, as Belkar put it, a belt loop keeping the pants of the universe on. And then, despite swearing to never interfere with the other Gates, move to interfere with her Gate. Now, sure, we know they have the best of intentions, and we know that they will absolutely not blow the last Gate. But Serini does not know that. And that's a pretty damned important point. These are people who devoted their entire lives in service to one specific goal, and then betrayed that goal immediately the second it looked like Xykon was actually going to get it. That's an enormous 180 to pull, especially on the spur of the moment. They swore to Serini that they wouldn't blow her Gate, but they also swore to Soon and later Shojo's dad and later Shojo that they would defend their own Gate, and yet. She has good and valid reason to not trust them. Even moreso if she knows they ahcw teamed up with the Order of the Stick, who destroyed two Gates - one accidentally and through nothing but sheer carelessness and stupidity (which, while not as bad as "intentionally while knowing exactly what it was", still is not a great hill to die on) and then one intentionally while knowing exactly what it was!

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

Also, she's not wrong about the paladins. Xykon defeated Serini, sure, but he also defeated Lirian and Dorukan, who were more powerful than Serini. It stands to reason he'd be able to beat Serini. So if Serini can defeat the paladins, then even teaming up they wouldn't be able to do anything to stop Xykon. She might be snapped into a possibility of realization once the Order defeats her that they, plus her, plus the paladins, might stand a chance. That, along with the rest of what the Order knows about the gods, might well get her to change course. I sure think so, because that case is compelling as hell. But they have to get her in position where they can explain it to her, and so far she hasn't done half bad in showing the Order how outclassed they are (or, really, trying to show herself) all on her lonesome. Given what all she knows (even though she is wrong), she is making perfectly valid steps.

That's all I've been saying. That's all I've ever been saying. The single biggest issue is that she is wrong, not that she is irrational. Hell, her fear isn't even really irrational, it's plenty rational given what happened. But even going with irrationality, all that does is reinforce her already wrong beliefs. Her wrong beliefs are the pillar holding everything up. The irrationaloty is just a character flaw.

[Snails]

(...skipping ahead)

I just realized that O-Chul may be vastly overestimating V. We, the Readers, know that it is the MitD that got him out of trouble, before. But O-Chul may assume that V pulled out some magic that is beyond his understanding.

[TooSoon]

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

The point is that her actions are not logical. She claims she wants to prevent the world from being destroyed and that Xykon cannot be stopped, but if that were the case, she would have just given him the Gate on arrival, that way no one would have time to destroy it before he could take it, because to her that's the only way that he could be stopped.

So, either she thinks that there's some "non-destroy-the-world" manner in which Xykon could be stopped, which she's given zero indications of so we can probably dismiss that as a realistic possibility, she thinks some sort of hail mary will come around to save everything, which doesn't seem to be the case because OOTS is giving her plenty of signs that this is the hail mary she'd have been waiting for, she earnestly thinks that her Gate's defenses will stall Xykon out indefinitely, which is a terrible plan...

...or she's paralyzed by fear and indecision, because she doesn't want Xykon to win, but doesn't know a way for Xykon to not win, and can only see all the ways in which the actions by others will make things fall to pot and, as Roy's father put it, she's the highest level PC in the area, its her battle to lose, so why can't she think of something, think of anything, at least, at least if she stops these rubes from getting involved she can buy more time, yeah, buy more time, maybe she'll think of something later, maybe something else will come up...

That's where I'm seeing her at, in terms of the big picture. And the end result of all of that is that she's helping Xykon win, because every one of her actions does nothing but make that more likely. It doesn't matter that there's other things she could do that would make it certain that he'd win, just that every time she's gotten involved with the Paladins and the Order of the Stick, the result has been in Xykon's favor.

Serini's behavior certainly isn't terribly rational... but at least she's correct in understanding the role of casters in the hierarchy. If Dorukan and Lirian were beaten, she's got no chance on her own... except she's not on her own, and the other side has casters too, and a pet monster that is a living, unlimited anti-caster device.

[CommonError]

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

[BloodSquirrel]

Just here to collect some of my "called it" points.

Serini isn't thinking rationally, she isn't in control of the situation at all, and she's still fixated on escalating the fight despite being in a terrible positing to do so and has only managed to reveal more of the gate's defenses to the Order. She's had plenty of opportunities to voice arguments in her own favor, and she has consistently failed to do more than shout angrily and insult people.

And, most importantly, it turns out that she was never really counting on stopping Xykon. She doesn't think she can beat him at all, even with her gate's defenses. She isn't stalling for time because she thinks there's a realistic expectation that he'll be defeated some other way, she's just stalling. Xykon winning isn't just a possibility that she's willing to allow, it's an inevitability that she's willing to accept as such. Even her claim that somebody would come along to beat him someday has been revealed as disingenuous (Something that I specifically pointed out, btw).

And she hasn't even hit rock bottom yet. This is just going to keep getting uglier for anyone who wants to continue tying themselves in knots trying to pretend that the comic is going to wind up validating Serini, her decisions so far, or her opinion on the Order.

[Peelee]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity. The afterlife still exists, souls still go to their destination. Meanwhile, if the last Gate is blown and the Snarl destroys the world, then the souls may well be eaten/destroyed. Serini wasn't at the Godsmoot, she didn't hear Loki say they can still pull everyone out. So far as we know, her knowledge is the same knowledge that Shojo told the Order.

So even with the afterlife, we have afterlife for people under a Xykon and no afterlife for people with world destruction, as far as Serini knows. Still sound. Still only due to her being wrong, which is a fixable state.

This is just going to keep getting uglier for anyone who wants to continue tying themselves in knots trying to pretend that the comic is going to wind up validating Serini, her decisions so far, or her opinion on the Order.

Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

[BloodSquirrel]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

I've dismantled this idea before while pointing out how flawed Serini's reasoning was: This is a setting where Xykon ascending to godhood is a distinct possibility, where people's souls can be sent to the Abyss, where people can be raised as golems that feel constant pain, and where Xykon having completely dominance over the world will give him a massive amount of power to make those kinds of things happen. Hell, what if Xykon winds up actually using the snarl to wipe out one of the more benevolent pantheons? The amount of suffering that Xykon could potentially cause is incalculable. It is most certainly not inarguably less than that caused by immediately destroying the world.

(Also, Serini has never bothered to consider the possibility that Xykon might blow the world up himself messing around with the gates- for some reason, she's assuming that he's completely competent to take control and use them without any risk of things going wrong. Xkyon. She's assuming this about Xykon.)

[Psychronia]

The Order's track record as far as rescues go is pretty good, I suppose.

Saved Elan from the bandits. Well, on take 2.
Saved Julia. There were casualties, but they couldn't have done anything about it, timewise.

....Ooof. Actually, the slaves in the Empire of Blood probably brings their success rate down quite a bit.

[Kantaki]

Am I the only one worried by that forgetfullness cauldron there? Would be potion effects on ingestion, touch, or injected?

Inhalation.
They had this discussion a good dozen times already.

[Ivrytwr]

Lovely! O-chul's optimism fills with joy and laughter.
Thanks Giant.

[BloodSquirrel]

Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!

Of course, if anyone here actually didn't read the last few strip discussion threads, or is a little hazy on what was posted there, I'd recommend going through and reading them to at least get the gist of the conversation before confidently insisting that "Nobody every said such a thing!". People did, in fact, say a lot of things. A lot of very silly things. Too many to drag onto this thread, even if it was wise to do so.

For anyone who hasn't read those threads and isn't interested in getting mired in that swamp, they can just keep scrolling until the next debate comes up where one side will dig a hole for themselves, insist they're on top of Mount Everest for ten strips, then deny that it ever happened.

[Hurkyl]

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!

A: If Serini had a plan, she would have told the Paladins.
B: Why would she?
C: Hey everybody look! B is insisting Serini has a plan!

[137beth]

So I know I'm kinda late to this discussion, but OMNGs I love seeing a callback to what for a long time was my favorite scene in the comic.

[CommonError]

Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity. The afterlife still exists, souls still go to their destination. Meanwhile, if the last Gate is blown and the Snarl destroys the world, then the souls may well be eaten/destroyed. Serini wasn't at the Godsmoot, she didn't hear Loki say they can still pull everyone out. So far as we know, her knowledge is the same knowledge that Shojo told the Order.

So even with the afterlife, we have afterlife for people under a Xykon and no afterlife for people with world destruction, as far as Serini knows. Still sound. Still only due to her being wrong, which is a fixable state.

They may not be getting tortured for eternity, but while existing on the material plane they would be tortured (or oppressed, or whatever other crappy situation Xykon would put them in). Suffering on the material plane + an afterlife is still worse than just afterlife. Plus, when the world is recreated, everyone who's born there will be better off than under Xykon's rule. So really, the scenario is the current material world where everyone suffers + afterlife vs another material world that's normal + an afterlife for everyone in this world. Keep in mind, in the former situation every new soul is going through aforementioned suffering, whereas in the latter new souls get a regular life. In other words, the former essentially will have infinitely more suffering because it will last forever and everyone will be worse off.

Nothing that Shojo said implied that the souls would be destroyed in the event of the world being destroyed. That only happens if the Snarl consumes the world, not if the gods destroy the world first, and there's nothing that says the gods can't destroy the world if the Snarl gets free. They didn't do it the first time because it was the first time they encountered it, but there's nothing saying that they couldn't have developed ways to destroy the world and save the souls in case the Snarl ever got free again. However, even if all the souls would be destroyed, I'd argue that condemning every future generation to a lifetime of suffering just so that those currently living aren't completely destroyed is ultimately selfish and a bad thing to do.

But I don't want to get into a long argument about this, and I doubt you'd ever change your mind. It's certainly true though that Xykon's rule is not inarguably better than the world getting destroyed.

[elros]

People can judge Serini for her actions, but I want to point out the following ways Serini has been traumatized:

• She saw Kraagor get erased by the Snarl. Although it is not stated, I suspect the Order of the Scribble tried to resurrect Kraagor, and their failure to do so likely makes Serini fear the Snarl more than anything.
• She saw the two epic casters in her party get absolutely curb stomped by Xykon. Check out SoD and you will see that lich-form Xykon played both battles for laughs.
• Although we don't know it for certain, it is likely that Serini knows that the entire Drakentooth clan was killed.
• Serini was heavily damaged by Xykon, and she admits that she is only alive because Xykon does not consider her important enough to kill.

Serini is acting rationally if you consider that she is more scared of the Snarl than Xykon, and that she believes that Xykon cannot be defeated. If you want to say that Serini is acting irrationally, it is because she is traumatized, and she has every reason to be irrational.

I have one question about will happen next: do you think V will inform O-Chul that, in fact, V did not rescue him from Xykon, and that Xykon defeated V despite having the soul splice? That information may knock the 5 star rating.

[Sapphire Guard]

If we shelve all our meta knowledge, is there any reason for Serini to believe the Order is capable of doing anything to thwart Xykon? They've lost gate after gate and just got done running for their lives.

If you don't know they're the leads in a comic series, why should she believe they can do anything useful?

[Peelee]

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...3#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!

And, as has also been pointed out dozens of times by now, why would she? She's planning to remove their memories of the encounter, and is not seeking their approval, advice, or anything else that would necessitate her telling them that. There's no reason for her to. She's not a Bond villain.

I'm insisting that she has a plan of doing exactly what she claims she's going to do?

That is not the "gotcha" you seem to think it is.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Now I want some V + O-Chul friendship. Maybe he could give some insights in repentance for the whole familicide thing?

Spoiler: GDGU spoilers

Show

While certainly not as serious, he was a thief before he was a paladin.

[Liquor Box]

Dragging things out as long as possible is a fine plan - eventually Xykon or Redcloak might feel the entire dungeon is a trick and there is no gate here at all and go elsewhere, or Redcloak might hit epic levels and they might feel it both quicker and safer to rebuild one of the other gates and thereby leave hers alone while also reinforcing the universe.

Or she might teach a horse to talk.

Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.

Pointing out that Serini's own observation that "these adventurers" are tougher than she expected might undermine her previous assumption that they wouldn't be able to beat Xykon was something of substance, and something that has been pointed out by posters.

Serini hasn't listened yet. But her refuting the point by saying that Xykon beat her and her friends so must be unbeatable is so weak that I doubt a realisation is far off.

You mean, besides O'chul pointing out that Serini's severely underestimated the Order's abilities and how her assumption that they cannot defeat Xykon is a severely flawed one?

Ninja'd

[Ruck]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?

Conservation of detail is overrated.

It's already served a narrative purpose: it explained what Serini was planning to do with her prisoners that she was unwilling to kill.

Using it again is possible, but I wouldn't say it's unused.

Dang, you two beat me to it.

By the end of this tale the Azurites may consider V the greatest wizard of all time

Well, the people who might think otherwise kinda lost their say in the matter.

Yes. This is what I came here to say.

I think we know how Belkar Bitterleaf breathes his last … he forgets the horrible person that he was and becomes the slightly better person he how is.

Bonus points if he does this on purpose to save the others, a Good act.

Don't count me in that "we."

And some readers predict that another monster related to the MitD will be here in Serini's dungeon.

Another one you can count me out for, although I find it less implausible than any "Belkar's death won't involve him actually, really dying" theories.

I would argue that they have been more actively helpful then she has been.

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

Yeah, this is a point I've been trying to make for a long time.

And, as Peelee already mentioned, Serini only moved to subdue the paladins when they began talking about finding the Gate, and when she confronted the Order, they were in the midst of a plan that would expose one of the Gate's defenses Team Evil hadn't discovered yet.

Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

I would expect so, given that Roy knows this is the last gate and that he knows everything about the Godsmoot and Thor's mission for Durkon. Of course, Serini has no reason to think that, or even to know the relevant information Roy knows even exists.

Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

I've never seen them either. BloodSquirrel sure seems to know a lot of them, though.

A: If Serini had a plan, she would have told the Paladins.
B: Why would she?
C: Hey everybody look! B is insisting Serini has a plan!

Or maybe it's that.

[Peelee]

Well, the people who might think otherwise kinda lost their say in the matter.

Spoiler

Show

For reals, that was cold.

[Liquor Box]

The Order beating Xykon was a fluke, and Soon had an army of paladins (twice).

"Xykon is unbeatable, period!" is a pretty strong statement. The word 'period' suggests no exceptions.

Someone able to be beaten by flukes is not unbeatable. Someone able to be beaten by an army of paladins is not unbeatable.

It is possible that Serini knows less about what's been going on than most of us assume, and didn't know about those two fights.

[Rrmcklin]

This establishes Serini as a person largely driven by personal hangups that are likely clouding her perspective on things, while still not invalidating several points she's made that still have merit. So basically what I think most people were already assuming.

I do think one of those hangups was a lack of self-worth was what anyone expected, though that is interesting.

[Mastikator]

Every comic with O-Chul is a treasure.

[Liquor Box]

Last time he destroyed the gate while admitting he didn't know the potential consequences - one of those consequences might have been that one gate alone couldn't do the job.

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.

He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.

Is your point that Roy took actions without being certain of the consequences? You are right, he did. But not taking action until you are certain of the consequences was not the right thing to do in that situation, because doing nothing would lead to the gate's seizure. Roy weighed the probable (note not certain) consequences of destroying the gate and allowing it to be captured, consulted with his allies, and made a decision. That decision appears logical based on what Roy knew, is consistent with what Shojo said and with Dorukan having a self destruct button, and appears to have been the correct choice based on what we the readers have been shown since.

[Peelee]

"Xykon is unbeatable, period!" is a pretty strong statement.

As is "Serini is wrong", which I have never been shy about stating.

[Liquor Box]

As is "Serini is wrong", which I have never been shy about stating.

Not sure how that relates. Also not sure it is such a strong statement. "Serini is always wrong, period!" might be more comparable.

Has anyone ever been arguing abotu whether Serini is wrong? I thought her wrongness was widely accepted. I think most of the discussion was whether her decisions her poor based on what she knew.