OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Her actions are irrational and self-destructive, but personally I’m not as bitter about her as I used to be since she has a very understandable reason for that.

[Demon 997]

I think we're finally making progress! Half the Order breaching her sanctum, plus two soon to be freed paladins may either convince Serini that they can usefully help, or force her to accept the help.

I'm guessing the next few strips will see some real plot movement.

[Hurkyl]

I think we're finally making progress! Half the Order breaching her sanctum, plus two soon to be freed paladins may either convince Serini that they can usefully help, or force her to accept the help.

Ironically for the current arguments, that would invalidate "I don't think you paladins are going to suddenly flip and try to take over" part of Serini's dialog.

[JonahFalcon]

Meanwhile, I envision Elan and Sunny having a cheerful conversation, knowing that they might have to fight when Serini returns. I think they're capable of being friendly and chatting under those conditions.

[Stegyre]

Cannot express how much I love O-chul. His 5-stars comment and the callback to his previous rescue is pure gold.

[lcavalheiro]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff. She is a rogue, after all, so nothing says she should spill all the beans in her diary. Plus, she knows she isn't the best of their original group, so a lot of deception would be expected from her gate defense planning. My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

[Ruck]

Her actions are irrational and self-destructive, but personally I’m not as bitter about her as I used to be since she has a very understandable reason for that.

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.

My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

This has been proposed many times, and the general consensus is that this would actually make it easier for the Gate to be found.

The fact that the dungeon has a teleport trap that redirects anyone who doesn't spot it on a wild goose chase seems like plenty enough misdirection while remaining practical.

[Liquor Box]

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.

Can't speak for Daniel, but I do think there are things we learned.

For example. we learned that Serini's belief that the paladins/order can't beat Xykon arises from Xykon beating her and her friends, rather than any any sort of real assessment of the Order or Paladin's abilities.

[Peelee]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff. She is a rogue, after all, so nothing says she should spill all the beans in her diary. Plus, she knows she isn't the best of their original group, so a lot of deception would be expected from her gate defense planning. My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

[danielxcutter]

Well, most of the defendants were saying she had some sort of actual plan and her reasoning was solid.

That’s not really the case.

[JonahFalcon]

Cannot express how much I love O-chul. His 5-stars comment and the callback to his previous rescue is pure gold.

Well, O-Chul stole the joke from Belkar.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

"Dark but clean, I'd give this three stars — 'Would be incarcerated again.'"

[Yendor]

I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

As I've said before, the very fact that so many people have suggested it should show why it's a bad idea.

Maybe there should be a trap down there, to trick anyone who tries looking into thinking they're onto something.

[PattThe]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?

Paladins: FORGET YOUR FRIENDS AND FIGHT WITH US! Literally.
Imagine that. Man, what a way to end the final combat. Party gets her on their side by making them forget why they fear Xykon, and only for the memory magic to wear off and make her turn on everyone.

[Hurkyl]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff.

You know, it strikes me we've been underestimating the potential effectiveness of "Ugh, we've cleared every entrance and none of them led to the gate. I can't believe that cheeky little halfling rogue pulled off that bluff."

[Larsaan]

You know, following on the concern that Serini might do something truly awful before this is done... I can't help but imagine that if the Order manages to neutralize her ability to fight, and she's forced to actually listen to their words, she might chug the potion herself just to avoid having to confront her own trauma.

I don't know that it's the most likely outcome, or whether her trauma runs that deep, but I definitely believe it's a possibility.

[Hurkyl]

You know, following on the concern that Serini might do something truly awful before this is done... I can't help but imagine that if the Order manages to neutralize her ability to fight, and she's forced to actually listen to their words, she might chug the potion herself just to avoid having to confront her own trauma.

Or to avoid interrogation. If she's committed to keeping everyone away and risks being forced to divulge "plot stuff we need to know", she could take the potion to avoid that outcome.

[TRH]

Or to avoid interrogation. If she's committed to keeping everyone away and risks being forced to divulge "plot stuff we need to know", she could take the potion to avoid that outcome.

How would that interact with Speak With Dead? Because that's the only way the Order reliably has of forcing someone to talk that they might be willing to go through with.

[danielxcutter]

How would that interact with Speak With Dead? Because that's the only way the Order reliably has of forcing someone to talk that they might be willing to go through with.

Speak With Dead doesn't really work if the target wouldn't have told you in life. Look at the Draketooths.

[CrimsonCantata]

O'chul's fond, almost wistful smile in that last panel absolutely melted my heart.

[Snails]

I predict that Serini will pull out some badass tricks and be on the verge of winning this fight...when Roy, Durkon, Elan show up.

Elan had a possible action or two off panel while Haley would wall climbing. We know he has Break Enchantment, and could have used it to fix Durkon. Durkon could have spent a couple round fixing Roy. The trio could get past the Beholder by a number of ways.

[Snails]

Serini is unambiguously wrong (for lack of the beneift of information from the Godsmoot and Thor), and she disappoints for an apparent lack of any kind of positive plan, except to thwart the Order for (in her mind) being too likely to jump at the chance to destroy the last Gate.

That does not make her a bad person or an idiot. Dor and Lir were beaten, to her amazement. The Sapphire Guard broken. And the group she was most likely to choose to work directly with as a desperate measure was mysteriously nuked. Panic and getting stuck in a reactionary mode is understandable here, even if she has enough clues to deduct that there are better plans, if only the situation were considered soberly.

[Hurkyl]

I wanted to add that while I too expect that Serini regards the Order as agents of the Sapphire Guard, it's not certain it's going to be that way; she only discussed her motivation for expelling the paladins. It's quite possible her opinion of them could range from anything between finding them an even greater risk to simply viewing them as unfortunately necessary collateral damage in her "expel the Sapphire Guard" plan.

We do know they thoroughly annoyed her, but not if that would actually make any substantial difference in the decision making.

[Tecatin]

okay so is it crazy i feel like belkar might have odds of getting Serini to listen? belkars come from a similar place of thinking the others have no chance and can probably relate to feeling helpless while an important caster dies and ends up feeling guilty over it. idk it just seems like him finally paying attention to the plot and those commonalities will lead to something big.

[Liquor Box]

I wanted to add that while I too expect that Serini regards the Order as agents of the Sapphire Guard, it's not certain it's going to be that way; she only discussed her motivation for expelling the paladins. It's quite possible her opinion of them could range from anything between finding them an even greater risk to simply viewing them as unfortunately necessary collateral damage in her "expel the Sapphire Guard" plan.

We do know they thoroughly annoyed her, but not if that would actually make any substantial difference in the decision making.

I agree. I think most people (including me) assumed that most of Serini's reasoning vis a vis the paladins would also apply to the Order.

But there have been a few indications that she actually knows very little about the Order. In the fight she seems to think Hayley is the leader, she says she knows who the order is through their cold calls and says nothing about nay observation, when justifying her opinion that the order can't take Xykon she doesn't say anything about their abilities only Xykon being unbeatable, and in this comic she refers to them as 'these adventurers' rather than 'your allies' or anything else more specific.

[faustin]

Everyone is taking about Serini being irrational, but nobody mentions how she casually roastes the Paladins again while passing by.
No wonder she and Girard got along so well :)

[mjasghar]

WRT to Xykon ruling the world and afterlives etc
An epic lich can stop you going to the afterlife - just ask Dorukan and Lirian. And beyond that epic necromancy spells can consume souls or warps them or even rip souls out of the afterlife. And that’s assuming he isn’t using the threat of the Snarl to blackmail godlike powers for himself.
Now, of course, we know if he tries blackmail the gods pull the plug anyway. So the former argument is from what Serini knows, which is bad enough. Of course we don’t know if he might get a chance to unleash the Snarl on an outer plane which effectively destroys afterlives for all eternity.

[Wraithfighter]

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

Spoiler: Spoilers for NWN2: MotB

Show

The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more.

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

[Matt620]

In which I am reminded that I dislike Serini, like O-chul and Lien, and feel better about Haley.

[danielxcutter]

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

Spoiler: Spoilers for NWN2: MotB

Show

The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more.

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

Okay that ending is... harrowing.

Spoiler

Show

So... you start devouring souls, people, demigods, and then you progress to the vestige of Myrkul and then you end up becoming more or less an Elder Evil?!

[Ekul]

I do think it's fitting that she completely underestimated them, however. She was probably expecting them to do what the paladins were doing and plan their approach, but then Durkon went straight to negotiation, and when that failed they had to go on the run. They never gave her a proper chance to sneak up on them. She just wasn't ready for them to bust out with the immediate engagement.