OOTS #1250 - The Discussion Thread

[Ezekiel]

Razor's looking awesome with the art upgrade!

I think we should all thank Serini for her years of service (and for being such a good sport) by giving her a nice safe retirement on the Outer Planes by plane shifting her to...Mechanus.

[Peelee]

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.

Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

[gnomish dwelf]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

[Peelee]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

[Wraithfighter]

I do think that Lien's move has a chance of going wrong, because yeah, Serini that's been calmed the F down would be an asset in fighting against Xykon...

...but the problem was that they were in a stalemate, and while Serini's clearly been shown to be outmatched here, she is refusing to surrender. Besides, this is Serini's home turf, she's resourceful, and she's a rogue. The thing to do in that case is keep the pressure on, don't give the target a chance to squirm out of the situation by thinking up plan Q with stuff they had lying around somewhere.

And, look, even if it's not perfect strategy? I'm fine with Lien being just freakin' done with Serini's nonsense right now. She's watched her only companion get poisoned and theoretically put in mortal jeopardy, she's been poisoned herself by said ambusher, she's been mocked to her face by a old ninny who seems more interested in letting the big bad win than actually protecting anyone, imprisoned, mocked, threatened with a significant personal violation (yes, I count memory erasure as being that), sees said old ninny who used to be a hero of legend and is now acting like a paranoid, prideful old fool being so obsessed with having some sort of victory over not just freakin' calming down for one freakin' moment...

...yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I've got no real issue with Lien going "screw all this, have a literal ton of angry, divine, razor-toothed retribution fall on your head" on Serini.

[Ruck]

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.

Actually the entire arc feels like “the DM” being a jackass to “the players” and yes I am very much aware that this is a webcomic.

I certainly have a personal pet peeve about dealing with holier-than-thou know-nothing know-it-alls, so Celia's behavior in Greysky was obviously the kind of thing that would rub me the wrong way.

The Greysky arc struck me as "Celia knows she's not an adventurer and unfamiliar with this world, but still disregards Haley's instructions despite that, gets them in serious danger, does the bare minimum to help Haley get out of it, then pins the material responsibility for resolving the conflict on Haley personally and acts self-righteous about doing so."

Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

And see, in that arc Celia feels to me, much as Miko "hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to treat other people like crap," like she hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to pawn off the consequences of her actions onto other people.

[skim172]

Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

In real life, any RPG-style adventuring party would quickly end up in jail, on the gallows, fugitive from the law, destitute, starving, lost in the wilderness, eaten by wildlife, suffering from exposure, exiled, and excommunicated.

[danielxcutter]

In that order?

[gnomish dwelf]

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

it feels warm and fuzzy when a mod agrees with one specially one that is a dragon and, apparently, either a steel dragon or a silver dragon, which are the coolest good-aligned dragons in the core monster manual from 2nd edition.

[PontificatusRex]

In real life, any RPG-style adventuring party would quickly end up in jail, on the gallows, fugitive from the law, destitute, starving, lost in the wilderness, eaten by wildlife, suffering from exposure, exiled, and excommunicated.

Are you trying to tell us the you don't regard The A Team as a realistic narrative?

I PITY THE FOOL!

[Peelee]

And see, in that arc Celia feels to me, much as Miko "hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to treat other people like crap," like she hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to pawn off the consequences of her actions onto other people.

Except when she's right. And Haley doesn't listen, which leads to further "Celia being right". And the de facto leader who insists its her way or the highway gives absolutely zero reason is apparently not at fault at all.

Haley is a bad leader who refuses to reign in the one person holding them back and slaps down the one person doing their best to help. And apparently, this instead comes off as Celia being holier-than-thou and an annoying DMPC who blocks the players.

Sorry, I'm not going to join you in your camp.

Are you trying to tell us the you don't regard The A Team as a realistic narrative?

.... But the A-Team were fugitives from the law.

[Snails]

It comes from an episode of Happy Days where one of the characters, while riding a motorcycle, jumped over a water tank with a shark in it. That episide is largely seen as a definitive point where the show was more bad than good, so "jumping the shark" as a phrase was born.

The Fonz got on water skies, something he had done maybe once before, and jumped the shark enclosure wearing his leather jacket. Cuz the jacket was part of his oh-so-cool look. And this was on a dare, from a professional water skier, who chickened out on his own attempt.

It is not only a matter of being more bad than good, albeit that is a big piece of it. IMO "Jump the shark" also carries the connotation of the writers having completely lost track of what genre their story is going to be. Thus not only is the show bad, but it is bad in completely impossible to predict ways, because no one seems to care anymore.

Let's consider the larger context: This was, after all, a show where where the Fonz wielded his thumb in a battle of wills to defy the mindpowers of a space alien -- that was deemed acceptable enough. Yet the writers strayed so far beyond that, viewers suddenly said "Huh?!?"

Let that sink in.

[Snails]

.... But the A-Team were fugitives from the law.

Right. In fact, at some point in their careers, I believe the A-Team checks off every box of skim172's list except "eaten by wildlife".

[Ruck]

Except when she's right. And Haley doesn't listen, which leads to further "Celia being right". And the de facto leader who insists its her way or the highway gives absolutely zero reason is apparently not at fault at all.

Haley is a bad leader who refuses to reign in the one person holding them back and slaps down the one person doing their best to help. And apparently, this instead comes off as Celia being holier-than-thou and an annoying DMPC who blocks the players.

Sorry, I'm not going to join you in your camp.

I'm not asking you to join me in anything. And everything you described happened before Greysky City.

When they approach Greysky City, Haley clearly tells her it's a dangerous place where people get killed for trivial reasons. Celia disregards that despite her pacifism and being unable to be raised from the dead, despite knowing she's not cut out for the adventuring world. She knows she's not suited for this and doesn't know this place as well as Haley, yet she also thinks she knows best. Hence "know-nothing know-it-all."

Then, when the consequences for Celia's insubordination come up, she makes Haley deal with all of them and acts like she's in the right for making Haley do so. I have a problem with people who can't take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Also, if we're talking leadership, Celia is certainly willing to demand Haley handle Belkar in the way she wants her to, but I don't see Celia submitting herself for the proper punishment for insubordination and endangering the party for her Greysky City adventure. Seems to me like she wants all the benefits of pinning responsibility on Haley without actually having to submit herself to Haley's authority. Which just tracks with what I already said.

[Lexible]

Stalling to what end? I mean, I guess she's not not stalling, but these seem more like desperation tactics at this point than that she has the cavalry on the way.

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.

But maybe I am off in this conjecture, and Rick is actually just making a point about a slow and undignified descent into senility.

[Ruck]

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.

But maybe I am off in this conjecture, and Rick is actually just making a point about a slow and undignified descent into senility.

I don't think I'd go as far as "just," but I do think we've reached the point where Serini's plans and backup plans have failed, and she's having to improvise on the spot with whatever she's got. Hence, desperate.

Right. In fact, at some point in their careers, I believe the A-Team checks off every box of skim172's list except "eaten by wildlife".

It's been a long time since I've seen any of The A-Team, but the "fugitives from the law" part is baked right there into the premise, in the opening narration.

[Peelee]

I'm not asking you to join me in anything. And everything you described happened before Greysky City.

When they approach Greysky City, Haley clearly tells her it's a dangerous place where people get killed for trivial reasons. Celia disregards that despite her pacifism and being unable to be raised from the dead, despite knowing she's not cut out for the adventuring world. She knows she's not suited for this and doesn't know this place as well as Haley, yet she also thinks she knows best. Hence "know-nothing know-it-all."

Then, when the consequences for Celia's insubordination come up, she makes Haley deal with all of them and acts like she's in the right for making Haley do so. I have a problem with people who can't take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Also, if we're talking leadership, Celia is certainly willing to demand Haley handle Belkar in the way she wants her to, but I don't see Celia submitting herself for the proper punishment for insubordination and endangering the party for her Greysky City adventure. Seems to me like she wants all the benefits of pinning responsibility on Haley without actually having to submit herself to Haley's authority. Which just tracks with what I already said.

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her. Her description also tracks perfectly well with "simply traveling with Belkar". Sure, Celia's plan blew up in her face, but going by the information she had on hand (eg: Celia: "Haley why shouldn't I go down there?" Haley: "Because shut up, why."), it was hardly a bad idea. Hell, the clerics would probably have had no issue at all rezzing Roy, her only mistake was misunderstanding Grubbwiggler's service. You certainly can't fault her for all the troubles they had with the Thieves Guild, since Haley refused to tell her that Haley was a massive liability in that area with a huge price on her head. Hell, if anything, telling Celia where the temples were and to only go and make sure she got a bona fide cleric would have helped, but hey, Haley wants to keep her past secret for purely selfish reasons withiut letting anyone else even know there is any secret, so it's all... Celia's fault, somehow. How dare she.

[Psyren]

I guess the question about Chekov's Cauldron from the last strip has been answered.

In the best possible way too, an ineffectual and failed eleventh-hour bluff rather than a comedy of errors resulting in an inadvertent dunking of a principal. Go Giant!

[Ruck]

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her.

Her exact words are "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Seems like something a pacifist who can't be raised from the dead would avoid if they had an ounce of sense about them. Certainly wouldn't want to sneak off behind the back of the one teammate who can defend them to visit it.

Hell, the clerics would probably have had no issue at all rezzing Roy, her only mistake was misunderstanding Grubbwiggler's service.

Huh. It's almost like that kind of mistake is entirely foreseeable when a deeply naïve person wanders into a deeply dangerous place. Like it was also foreseeable that a bunch of liars and murderers would immediately go back on the deal said naïve person made with them. Celia apparently trusts the Thieves Guild more than she trusts Haley. Maybe even values their lives more than Haley's, since she wasn't willing to "betray her principles" to save Haley's life, but she'll gladly sell out Haley to save the lives of the people who were just trying to kill the two of them. I guess I have a problem with people who think "violence in self-defense against a lethal threat" is bad, but "selling out your teammates and allies to protect a bunch of evil crooks and murderers" is good.

You certainly can't fault her for all the troubles they had with the Thieves Guild

Sure I can. She made the choice to go somewhere she was told was very dangerous, and everything that happened since then stemmed from that.

You haven't even tried to convince me she ever actually took responsibility for her own actions there, which I think only underlines my point here. Celia can demand Belkar and Haley face consequences for their actions, but then skips out on facing her own, even pins them on someone else. "Consequences for thee, not for me" never struck me as particularly lawful or good.

so it's all... Celia's fault, somehow. How dare she.

Yes, the consequences of Celia's actions are her own fault. Glad we agree. She doesn't seem to think so, though.

As a coda, it wasn't like she was a character I disliked before this arc, or anything-- not a particular favorite of mine, but no one I had any reason to dislike. The Greysky City arc, however, felt like it took all the worst potential traits of a character like Celia and turned them up to 11. It's like the story took everything I found obnoxious about Roy (the self-righteousness, the certainty of being the smartest person in the room even when he's not, the unwillingness to listen to others) and then also removed his sense of responsibility.

[BloodSquirrel]

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her. Her description also tracks perfectly well with "simply traveling with Belkar". Sure, Celia's plan blew up in her face, but going by the information she had on hand (eg: Celia: "Haley why shouldn't I go down there?" Haley: "Because shut up, why."),

...except that Haley says quite a bit more than that. Your description of that strip is just flat-out untrue.

Also, Celia never suggested one course of action that Haley could have taken to deal with Belkar. She demanded that Haley do something, but she had no idea what she was asking Haley to do and refused to do anything herself. Not even something like "Let's ditch him so that at least we aren't associating with him anymore".

For all of her willingness to give speeches about how much more moral she was, she wasn't even so much as willing to take the moral responsibility of advocating for a specific course of action.

[BloodSquirrel]

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.

Why? The narrative has been very clear so far: Serini is a lousy planner, her ambush went tits-up, and she's been acting out of increasing desperation since then. Every character in the strip who has commented on it- including Serini herself- agrees.

Meanwhile, people have been predicting that she was going to pull some kind of ace out of her sleeve for a while now, and it has continued to not happen.

[Shoelessgdowar]

As I pointed out earlier, I think it closely resembles a Dive Ball thrown upside down.

A fitting choice for an underwater predator like a shark.

Actually, Dive Balls have no white half. I believe, based on your own link, it is in fact a Net Ball (not enough red accents for Great Ball nor a Lure Ball, not enough yellow accent nor thematic for a Moon Ball, all other balls with blue, Dive Ball & Beast Ball, are all blue, or primarily another color like gray or orange)

Now my wizard wants to research a ray of zergo spell.

Be careful, Zerg spells, even 0th level ones, are difficult to cast if you aren't insectoid.

As someone who first encountered him as Barry Zuckerkorn, attorney(?)-at-law - I agree.

Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

[Angelalex242]

Someday, I want the giant to put a laser beam on that mount. It's traditional.

[Ruck]

Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

I believe he is in fact an actual attorney at law in the show, although the quality of his lawyering (and who knows how many times he's been censured) may call that into question.

[Peelee]

[

Her exact words are "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Seems like something a pacifist who can't be raised from the dead would avoid if they had an ounce of sense about them. Certainly wouldn't want to sneak off behind the back of the one teammate who can defend them to visit it.

She's traveling with someone who kills eople for having candy bars. Actually, strike that, he didn't even know about the candy bad until later and conjectures that the next gnome he murders won't even have candy. Greysky City seems downright safe by comparison.

And speaking of, not only does Haley have to be downright pushed like crazy to give Belkar any repurcussion whatsoever for killing indiscriminately (her stellar arguments against include "no u"), but she also says and does absolutely nothing when Belkar talks about future indiscriminate murders. If we want to talk about foreseeable consequences of deep naiveté, shocker, Belkar kills again and screws up their entire plan. Greysky City would never have happened if Haley tried to reign Belkar in to start with, so if you want to go with "people are responsible for unforeseeable things other people did that happen as a result of their actions," then Haley has a mighty heavy albatross around her neck and is responsible for the whole gamut. But Haley is free from consequence because she didn't come off as annoying.

Also, Celia never suggested one course of action that Haley could have taken to deal with Belkar. She demanded that Haley do something, but she had no idea what she was asking Haley to do and refused to do anything herself. Not even something like "Let's ditch him so that at least we aren't associating with him anymore".

For all of her willingness to give speeches about how much more moral she was, she wasn't even so much as willing to take the moral responsibility of advocating for a specific course of action.

Part of Roy's defence to his actions regarding Belkar, to the actual gates of heaven, were that he could keep a handle on him. Haley was with the group just as long as Belkar, so she would have seen firsthand how Roy dealt with him. She had past experience, and she wanted to call the shots, but without any of the responsibilities that come with it. Again, when confronted with "do something about it, leader," she opted to go with "nah, you do it". She brushed it off.

It frankly baffles me that "Good leader, you should get the murderer to stop murdering, or at least find some sort of deterrent or consequence for murders he's already done" requires the person suggesting it to have full responsibility to figure out what to do. And let's not pretend Haley woudlnt be able to figure out anything herself, because as soon as Belkar kills the Oracle, she kicks him out. That's hardly big brain thinking that only occurred in a rare flash of brilliance, that's a pretty obvious move to make, but she just couldn't be bothered to do that. Not just because of the silly little reason of Belkar murdering people wantonly. It's not like Haley is supposed to be a Good character and take issue with stuff like that, right? Stuff like that only matters when it affects her, like when the Oracle she's about to use gets killed.

But, again, Celia did things like "get people to stop killing each other". Imean, how annoying is that? What a jerk.

Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

I don't think power of attorney is what you think it is. But yes, Barry Zuckerkorn is a licensed attorney.

[Erys]

Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?

I feel you, I totally agree... and for those that think Lien is shackled... its obvious he finally freed himself.

May have been mentioned, but if not...

Lien wasn't 'escaping', she was grabbing her pokEball. She hides it behind her head when Serini pops back in the room.

[Shoelessgdowar]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

I get Serini, she is misguided, definitely jaded and cynical, but that is okay. Celia was a pain in the behind, but she was acting as a proxy Roy on Estrogen (steroids would have made her more aggressive, might not be a perfect equivalent, but I work with what I know and is popular enough to make sense). Miko enraged me, I loathe Lawful Stupid. I have played a Rogue alongside Paladins that were ethical and moral without being deranged imbeciles, I know it can be done, Miko represented all the worst, dumbest, most prejudiced and judgemental lawful players I ever met... I also hate whoever raised her to be that way, and I am so glad no one "Raised" her.

Someday, I want the giant to put a laser beam on that mount. It's traditional.

Okay Doctor Evil, no need to bug GitP for a Bajilliongajillionzillion dollars and Sharks with Fricken Laser Beams. Just cause his name is Rich, doesn't mean he can afford your ransom.

[goodpeople25]

Frankly on their own I understand if not agree on Celia deciding it was worth trying to check out Greysky city, that she disregarded Haley's assertions, that she ended their conversation in resignation, that she left in the middle of the night while Haley was seemingly asleep, that she viewed her plan's success as a foregone conclusion and a win that Haley would get over, that she made obvious tactical and observational errors, that she claimed a stake in the well-being of Roy's body and their supplies, or the various betrayals of trust and displaying of her various shortcomings involved in those actions.

When you take it altogether however it becomes a lot harder to swallow and even if you still understand or agree after all that it in no way erases the responsibilities and consequences of those actions.

[Peelee]

Frankly on their own I understand if not agree on Celia deciding it was worth trying to check out Greysky city, that she disregarded Haley's assertions, that she ended their conversation in resignation, that she left in the middle of the night while Haley was seemingly asleep, that she viewed her plan's success as a foregone conclusion and a win that Haley would get over, that she made obvious tactical and observational errors, that she claimed a stake in the well-being of Roy's body and their supplies, or the various betrayals of trust and displaying of her various shortcomings involved in those actions.

When you take it altogether however it becomes a lot harder to swallow and even if you still understand or agree after all that it in no way erases the responsibilities and consequences of those actions.

I'm not saying Celia isn't responsible for her actions or the consequences. I am saying that people who rail against Celia for being "an annoying DMPC who blocks the players" or "being holier than thou" or being a "pain in the rear" and yet have no issue at all with Halley's morally-dubious-at-best callous disregard for the welfare of anyone in their path and hand-washing of anything her companion did are not people that I will see eye to eye with.

[Ruck]

She's traveling with someone who kills eople for having candy bars. Actually, strike that, he didn't even know about the candy bad until later and conjectures that the next gnome he murders won't even have candy. Greysky City seems downright safe by comparison.

Okay, so we agree, Celia made a bad decision because she thinks she knows more than she does and is hopelessly naïve about the world she's in. The difference is, I think she should own up to it instead of saying "Well, you're a thief, so actually it's fine that you take responsibility for my actions."

It frankly baffles me that "Good leader, you should get the murderer to stop murdering, or at least find some sort of deterrent or consequence for murders he's already done" requires the person suggesting it to have full responsibility to figure out what to do. And let's not pretend Haley woudlnt be able to figure out anything herself, because as soon as Belkar kills the Oracle, she kicks him out. That's hardly big brain thinking that only occurred in a rare flash of brilliance, that's a pretty obvious move to make, but she just couldn't be bothered to do that. Not just because of the silly little reason of Belkar murdering people wantonly. It's not like Haley is supposed to be a Good character and take issue with stuff like that, right? Stuff like that only matters when it affects her, like when the Oracle she's about to use gets killed.

Is your case "Haley didn't take sufficient responsibility for Belkar, so it's fine that Celia loses Roy's body and nearly gets this half of the party killed, then pushes responsibility for fixing that onto Haley?" Because I can agree that Haley didn't manage Belkar well-- her acknowledgement that she needs all the allies she can get right now, even unreliable murderhobos, is an explanation, but hardly solves the issue-- but that does not absolve Celia in the way you seem to think it does.

But, again, Celia did things like "get people to stop killing each other". Imean, how annoying is that? What a jerk.

Considering she was perfectly willing to let those people kill Haley until she came up with an alternate idea, yeah, I stand by what I said.