Which is more useful in a party?

[Frosty]

Generally speaking, out of these 3, which arcane spontaneous casting class is the most useful? Warmage, Beguiler, Sorcerer. My group can't seem to decide which one to add.

[Skjaldbakka]

Warmage fills the 'dedicated archer role', via damage spells.

Beguiler is effectively a rogue/caster. Sorcerer is a Batman-lite.

Warmage is inferior to the other two, but my personal preference.

[tyckspoon]

Sorcerer and Beguiler are probably about equal. Sorcerer can draw from the full Sorc/Wiz spell list for spells known, so he's got a lot more versatility if the player is careful about picking spells. On the other hand, the Beguiler has a lot more spells known, but they're all generally on the same theme and a lot of them are redundant. The Beguiler also has some actual class features other than spellcasting, and a good skill list and allotment of skill points; if you need somebody to handle skillmonkeying as well as provide some magic, you want the Beguiler. The Sorcerer is better if you need a general arcanist.

The Warmage is neat if you want to play around with the idea of 'an archer who uses spells in place of arrows'. If you don't have any other arcane caster in the party yet, he's going to be largely useless.

[Skjaldbakka]

If you don't have any other arcane caster in the party yet, he's going to be largely useless.

Warmage is not useless in this situation. You don't need a Batman to survive.

[tyckspoon]

No, but if you want an arcane caster in order to provide flight, invisibility, and charm prisoners who don't to talk, you don't want a Warmage. They're kind of like being an Evocation specialist and barring every other school.

[Dausuul]

Generally speaking, out of these 3, which arcane spontaneous casting class is the most useful? Warmage, Beguiler, Sorcerer. My group can't seem to decide which one to add.

Either beguiler or sorceror. It really depends on what your party needs. The beguiler is a skill-monkey with battlefield control and save-or-lose magic; the sorceror is, as Skjaldbakka says, Batman lite.

Bottom line: If you don't currently have an arcanist, I'd recommend the sorceror. Utility magic is just too good to give up. If you have that area covered, however, the beguiler is probably a stronger addition to an existing party.

Or you could just go with whichever seems like more fun to play. They're both strong classes, and you won't suffer terribly from picking one over the other, whatever the circumstances.

[Frosty]

Is the warmage really that useless?

[Xefas]

Is the warmage really that useless?

It could probably beat a fighter, but then again, an adept could probably beat a fighter.

[tyckspoon]

The Warmage is about as useful as direct damage magic in general. Which is.. not very. An Evocation-specialized wizard is easily the weakest choice of school to specialize in, but he can work around that and still provide the general magical backup that his party expects (assuming he didn't sacrifice the most useful schools.) The Warmage.. can't. He's like Xykon: His answer to everything is to hit with lightning until it breaks. Sometimes, he uses fire instead.

[Dausuul]

Is the warmage really that useless?

Not useless, but he doesn't fill the role of an arcane caster. The chief strengths of arcanists are utility and battlefield control. The warmage is, as others have said, a peculiar sort of archer.

IMO, the warmage works best in a party that already has an arcanist; then the other arcanist can take control of the battlefield and set things up for the warmage to lay down the hurt.

[greenknight]

Is the warmage really that useless?

The Warmage Edge is an interesting benefit, as are the bonus Feats (although a regular Wizard gets just as many, and has more choice as to what they will be). But the Warmage suffers from MAD (Int and Cha) and a very poor spell list. That said, a Warmage who managed to obtain the ability to turn/rebuke undead (eg, by taking 1 Cleric level) could do quite well using Divine Metamagic.

[Guy_Whozevl]

It simply depends on who your other party members are. If you lack a main damage dealer and feel that could be a problem, go Warmage. If you already have a Barbarian or a Warblade, as well as a Rogue, then the Sorcerer is your best bet. If you need general versitility, go with the Beguiler.
Personally, I would choose the Beguiler because of access to UMD, freeing more party roles (you now have Healer covered). Although you are not a true arcane caster in the same vein as a Sorcerer, you have useful utility spells (some of which are Save or Dies) and can use scrolls. Furthermore, you are able to scout, find traps, and serve as the party face (often problematic for smaller parties - who wants to be some random negotiator and miss out on the fun).
To sum it all up, it's all up to playing style. If you like blasting, go Warmage. If you like mixing up your spell list, go Sorcerer. If you like finesse, go Beguiler. If you don't seem to like any of these archetypes, be a Swordsage.

[Keld Denar]

The Warmage Edge is an interesting benefit, as are the bonus Feats (although a regular Wizard gets just as many, and has more choice as to what they will be). But the Warmage suffers from MAD (Int and Cha) and a very poor spell list. That said, a Warmage who managed to obtain the ability to turn/rebuke undead (eg, by taking 1 Cleric level) could do quite well using Divine Metamagic.

[futurama]
YOU CAN'T USE DIVINE METAMAGIC WITH ARCANE SPELLS!!! ARCANE SPELLS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!!! MORBO SMASH!!!

[/futurama]

[Indon]

[futurama]
YOU CAN'T USE DIVINE METAMAGIC WITH ARCANE SPELLS!!! ARCANE SPELLS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!!! MORBO SMASH!!!

[/futurama]

Isn't there a feat, Alternate Source or somesuch, that does let you do things like that?

[cupkeyk]

Southern Magician turns a divine spell arcane three times a day and vice versa. So a warmage who somehow manages to get turning ability can southern magician a three spells to qualify for the divine prerequisites of Divine metamagic. But why? A dread Necro gets the turn attempts as a class feature and get Southern magician, but why?

[Frosty]

Well, the rest of the party is an Initiate of the 7 Cheese, Cleric with the Trickery and Kobold domains I think, and a Knight.

[Ulzgoroth]

Probably a beguiler then? Does everything you might want a rogue for except put pointy metal in key bits of people, and is a powerful caster.

[cupkeyk]

The Kobold Cleric is already the skillmonkey. Go with sorc.

[Temp]

Is the warmage really that useless?

You seem to ask this sort of question in a lot of threads. No class is useless, no class will automatically "win at D&D."

Some classes just have more potential than others; in a talented player's hands, a Monk will be more helpful to a party than a poorly-played Wizard.

And no class will always be "more useful" than any other. It's all situational. If the Sorcerer, the Beguiler and the Warmage are all using identical tactics, they could be equally useful.

It's more of a player/design issue than anything.

...Except the Truenamer. That class has blatant design flaws.

[cupkeyk]

And no class will always be "more useful" than any other. It's all situational. If the Sorcerer, the Beguiler and the Warmage are all using identical tactics, they could be equally useful.

Actually, if they were all blasting, the beguiler would suck. Unfortunately, the Sorc and the Beguiler have other options, the warmage doesn't.

[Temp]

The Confusion/Color Spray spells are blaster spells, just better*.

*Unless something's mindless, then the Warmage comes ahead. All-in-all, they're probably going to wind up about equal if they're played with the same strategies.

[Frosty]

What about the Eccletic Learning feature for Warmages? Doesn't it allow them to fill in the Arcanist class?

I wonder if Overwhelm counts as blasting. Btw, how is a cleric ever a skill monkey? With 2+int points per level, he'll be hard pressed put enough points in his normal class skills already.

[Temp]

Spells will fill the Skillmonkey role for him. Because spellcasting really is the only important thing in this game.

[cupkeyk]

All he needed from the Kobold domain was the trapfinding class feature anyway.

[Frosty]

Will he have enough Knocks to get get thru everything is the question. I guess you can just set off traps from a distance

[Artanis]

What about the Eccletic Learning feature for Warmages? Doesn't it allow them to fill in the Arcanist class?

I don't know for certain, but I really, really doubt it. It may allow them to do a few arcanist-like tricks, but it'd be a hell of a stretch for just a couple spells to allow them to fulfill the role of "arcanist".

[Frosty]

This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.

[Artanis]

This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.

Well, if you already have a Wizard and still need a skillmonkey, then a Beguiler would probably be your best bet out of the three you listed.

[Dausuul]

This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.

It sounds like beguiler is your best bet, since beguilers cover the skillmonkey side of things. Warmage is a decent option, but beguiler is stronger, especially since the beguiler's biggest weakness (undead foes) is neatly covered by the presence of a cleric.

[Frosty]

Might also need a Face, but a cleric's high charisma might make him a better one...