Where to take my 3rd lvl bard?

[kyuubigan]

Ok I am truly not sure where to go with my human bard.
Here are some basic stats for him:

str 14
dex 14
con 13
int 15
wis 12
cha 17


Feats
H Extra Music (CAdv)
1 Lingering Song (CAdv)
3 Song of the Heart (Eberron)

Skill Ranks

• Bluff 5
• Concentration 6
• Diplomacy 6
• Escape Artist 6
• Knowledge (Arcane) 3
• Knowledge (History) 3
• Perform (Wind) 1
• Perform (Sing) 6
• Spellcraft 3
• Tumble 6
• Use Magic Device 6
• Speak Language 3

If anyone would care to give some advice as to where to go from here I would much appreciate it.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Where do you WANT to go with your bard? Seriously, you've told us nothing but crunch. How are we supposed to fulfill and optimize a concept if you don't tell us what you want your concept to be? I can optimize a bard to do just about any role, but you have to tell me which role ya want.

[Azerian Kelimon]

For super overpower, as many skill focii and boost to perform as you can and fascinate. More than that, I can't do without a concept.

[nerulean]

The most power you can get comes from Sublime Chord, which makes you into a sorcerer. The real question is where you think you'll get the most fun. What bardy things do you like doing?

[Temp]

You want to focus on Inspire Courage, I'm guessing? I'll assume that's your plan.

Pick up the level 1 spell Inspirational Boost (SpC).

See if you can get Words of Creation (BoED) whenever that shows up.

Look into snagging a Badge of Valor (MIC) and a Vest of Legends (DMG2)

If not, maybe take Melodic Casting for Lyric Thaumaturge (CM)... that's a right generic Bard class.

Maybe multiclass to Crusader at level 5 or 7, picking up Song of the White Raven if you're into this whole "melee" craze.

[BardicDuelist]

I would stay a bard until level 6. Once you get suggestion, you're golden. That's when you should start PrCing, if you plan to.

Honestly, you have a decent bard build right now.

Lyric Thaurmatuge is great, as it can only make you better. Virtuoso does a great deal for you if you want to focus on your music, and you only lose one caster level. If you really want to make your self great, go Bard 6/LT 3/Virtuoso 1/SC 1/Virtuoso 9. No matter what level your campaign stops at, you have a solid build.

For feats, Melodic Casting is great, whatever you need for Pre Reqs are necessary (obviously), and Words of Creation is pretty broken. If you can use it, Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin (a FR book) is the perfect debuff (search it and you'll find it somwhere on this site).

[kyuubigan]

Well, right now (with Inspirational Boost going) his inspire courage is +4, but I really don't want to get stuck as a support character. I really want to take him into melee combat.

[kyuubigan]

I know I'm going to take bard to at least 4th level, for the second level spells, (Cure Moderate and Alter Self). But after that I am totally stumped as to what to do to make him a more direct participant, especially since our party is more magic oriented, and I find it a little disturbing when me and the halfling scout are doing the majority of the melee combat.

[kyuubigan]

The most power you can get comes from Sublime Chord, which makes you into a sorcerer. The real question is where you think you'll get the most fun. What bardy things do you like doing?

He's kind of the stereotypical dashing hero with no actual combat skills (although he doesn't realize it) and the only reason he's able to fight because of his bardic music. He just realized last session that he really is pretty much useless doing combat after being reduced to 2 hit points with two attacks. Kale (the character's name) has now resolved himself to be more useful.

Sorry I did three posts in a row, but I needed to clarify my character a bit more for you all.

Edit

And yes temp, I know all about words of creation, but I just don't think it's worth it, especially with all my 19 HP.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Well, right now (with Inspirational Boost going) his inspire courage is +4, but I really don't want to get stuck as a support character. I really want to take him into melee combat.

Then go into a Song of the White Raven or Bardadin build. From your concept on your next post, it looks like you would probably be well served sending him into Warblade with Song of the White Raven, TWF, and Dragonfire Inspiration (Bard 4 / Warblade 16). If you can somehow manage the feats now. If you can't, ask your DM about retraining. The build will let you get 9th level maneuvers, all the skill points of a Bard, maxxed out Inspire Courage optimization, and tons of damage in melee (as well as good survivability there).

Sorry I did three posts in a row, but I needed to clarify my character a bit more for you all.

EDIT button.

[Ted_Stryker]

Spells like Blur or Mirror Image will be more useful than CMW if you want to make a melee bard. Bard 6/Human Paragon 2 would let you take Arcane Strike at 8th level. Sublime Chord also works well with Arcane Strike because you get access to higher level spells than you would as a straight-up Bard.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Spells like Blur or Mirror Image will be more useful than CMW if you want to make a melee bard. Bard 6/Human Paragon 2 would let you take Arcane Strike at 8th level. Sublime Chord also works well with Arcane Strike because you get access to higher level spells than you would as a straight-up Bard.

You don't usually use Sublime Chord when doing a melee build, unless you're going for crazy self buffification.

[Ted_Stryker]

Well, Sublime Chord and Eldritch Knight, then. Maybe there are better ways to do melee with a Bard than going the Arcane Strike route, but if you do go the Arcane Strike route, you will want 7th+ level spells.

[kyuubigan]

Well, Sublime Chord and Eldritch Knight, then. Maybe there are better ways to do melee with a Bard than going the Arcane Strike route, but if you do go the Arcane Strike route, you will want 7th+ level spells.

eh Arcane Strike seems to smart for him. I mean he's smart, but he would never think to do something like that. I'm thinking after 4 levels of bard I'm going to take him into a more combat oriented class, because the 5th bard level gives me almost nothing.

[Ted_Stryker]

eh Arcane Strike seems to smart for him. I mean he's smart, but he would never think to do something like that. I'm thinking after 4 levels of bard I'm going to take him into a more combat oriented class, because the 5th bard level gives me almost nothing.

Hey, it's your character, you certainly don't have to justify your choices to me. I was just throwing it out there as an option.

[kyuubigan]

Thanks Stryker. I was looking through some of my books, and a couple of levels of fighter, then three levels of swashbuckler might be best, mainly for the bonus feats, insightful, and the great Fortitude saves. Then I might jump into a prestige class. Not sure which one would be suitable though.

[Temp]

Thanks Stryker. I was looking through some of my books, and a couple of levels of fighter, then three levels of swashbuckler might be best, mainly for the bonus feats, insightful, and the great Fortitude saves. Then I might jump into a prestige class. Not sure which one would be suitable though.

Do you have access to the Tome of Battle? A Warblade does the same thing as a Swashbuckler, but does so better... in every way.
The Song of the White Raven feat allows Warblade and Bard levels to stack for the purposes of Inspire Courage and the Diamond Mind school lets you use Concentration checks to useful ends (in place of saving throws, to double the damage of your attacks, to determine the damage of your attacks...) And the Iron Heart school can be portrayed as dramatic over-the-top combat turn-arounds (or not-so-over-the-top turnarounds, depending on your taste).

[kyuubigan]

Do you have access to the Tome of Battle? A Warblade does the same thing as a Swashbuckler, but does so better... in every way.
The Song of the White Raven feat allows Warblade and Bard levels to stack for the purposes of Inspire Courage and the Diamond Mind school lets you use Concentration checks to useful ends (in place of saving throws, to double the damage of your attacks, to determine the damage of your attacks...) And the Iron Heart school can be portrayed as dramatic over-the-top combat turn-arounds (or not-so-over-the-top turnarounds, depending on your taste).

No I do not have access to the Tome of Battle, although I should probably buy it sometime in the near future.

[Ganurath]

I really want to take him into melee combat.

Warchanter from Complete Warrior. I don't remember all the requirements, but I'm pretty sure Sing is one of the accepted types of Perform. (I know the other one's Oratory.)

In any case, I'd say the best melee build for a bard is singing while fighting while cooperating with the song-buffed allies. Warchanter is good for this, although one might be able to make a weak argument for a few levels of Swashbuckler to get the Int bonus to damage and free Weapon Finesse (which is worthless in your build.) I don't really see any viable options for a melee bard (or any combat bard for that manner) other than Warchanter.

Also, look into Warchanter.

[Temp]

I don't really see any viable options for a melee bard (or any combat bard for that manner) other than Warchanter.

Straight Bard is plausible. Just snag Melodic Casting, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance and Power Attack. Spend one round prepping with a combined Inspire Courage/Buff spell (via MC) then attack with Wardance providing to-hit bonuses and Power Attack turning those into damage. Once Arcane Strike comes into the picture, you have even more damage (and to-hit, which means further damage increases) in combat.

The current feat choice of this build though, indicates buffing is going to be the top priority. I hate saying it, but Fighter (or Feat Rogue) levels might actually pay off if the concept is a melee fighter.

But that's too painful to accept--maybe see if you can retrain those first level feats for ones with a bit more "kick" like Power Attack?


...And Warchanter isn't a *bad* move, but it really doesn't provide much beyond level 3, so don't plan on much more of it than that.

[kyuubigan]

Warchanter from Complete Warrior. I don't remember all the requirements, but I'm pretty sure Sing is one of the accepted types of Perform. (I know the other one's Oratory.)

In any case, I'd say the best melee build for a bard is singing while fighting while cooperating with the song-buffed allies. Warchanter is good for this, although one might be able to make a weak argument for a few levels of Swashbuckler to get the Int bonus to damage and free Weapon Finesse (which is worthless in your build.) I don't really see any viable options for a melee bard (or any combat bard for that manner) other than Warchanter.

Also, look into Warchanter.

I own complete warrior and have considered the warchanter for my prestige class after taking levels in fighter and swashbuckler, but the class just doesn't have anything intersting to offer.

[Lycar]

...And Warchanter isn't a *bad* move, but it really doesn't provide much beyond level 3, so don't plan on much more of it than that.

Sorry but from the description of the class it *is* a bad choice.

So you get to give all your allies temporary hit points. Not bad per se but a measly 2 points per class level ? Come on, you can enter this class on, say, lv. 6 with a Bard. So when you reach Warchanter 3, you and your party are lv. 9, and 6 temporary HP are just... not worth it.

Now if it was 2 HP per character level, or at least 2 hp per Warchanter and Bard lv... now that would something entirely different...

And what about that inspire reclessness ability ? Allow your allies to convert AC into to-hit ? Uh hu.... might be useful... except that this just happens to be a morale bonus.... which just wont stack with any inspiration of confidence any self-respecting bard would surely provide his companions with. What were they thinking ?!

Nice basic ideas but poor execution. For fighting ability, better take a real martial class. At least the poor, maligned fighter provides feats.

Now if you could get your hand on a spell with the [sonic] descriptor (and at least lv. 3)... those reserve feats from complete mage are worth consideration. Clap of Thunder comes to mind... as long as your bard remains able to cast a [sonic] spell, he can do a melee touch attack as a standard action that deals 1d6 per level of highest level [sonic] spell available. Also gives a +1 to caster level for [sonic] spells and targets need to save vs. fortitude or be deafened. Nice extra effect on casters.

Or go for Blade of Force. Totally negate any miss chance on incorporeal creatures. Oh yeah, and +1 damage per level of highest force spell available.

Firy Burst offers a short-range, small area-of-effect damaging ability. Neat trick when you can do it all day long.

Hurricane Breath might not be the most powerful of reserve feats but one of the more colourful (huffing and puffing.... . ).

The problem here being that bards don't usually have spells with [sonic], [force], [fire] or [air] desriptors, but i don't have access to the Spell Compendium right now, maybe there or in another supplement you could find something appropriate.

Lycar



Yes, these reserve feats offer a few intriguing choices even for bards.

[BardicDuelist]

The Arcane Duelist prestige class is good for a melee bard. You need two feats that aren't that useful to get in.

Also, for my melee bards, I focus on buffing my AC, and let my music give me back my attack bonus.

[Temp]

Sorry but from the description of the class it *is* a bad choice.

I'm not saying that it's as good as straight Bard, but it does have its uses. It provides much greater to-hit than Inspire Courage and provides Heedless Charge to any ally who doesn't either doesn't have three feats to spare or doesn't have an excuse to charge.

It basically provides your Arcane Caster or your Archer (whose defenses are largely unrelated to their AC) with a constant +14 or more to hit. That's the best you'll have at low levels.

Stacking with IC is a problem, though... Dragonfire Inspiration could do a good deal to amend that.

And the class provides equal BA and more Skills (and a better skill list) than a standard fighter as well as Bardic Music uses-per-day advancement.

Also, if you're criticizing the War Chanter for its power, advocating Reserve Feats (beyond Touch of Healing) strikes me as a bit odd.

[namo]

As was pointed out, straight Bard is pretty good. You can dip in Fighter if you want, but it doesn't bring that much. Crusader/Warblade is better. Consider going for Abjurant Champion (CM). Do take Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), it's great.

Also look at the Crystal Echoblade (special weapon) in the MIC.

[kyuubigan]

I'm not really interested in continuing with his spells. I already know what 2nd level spells I'm going to take (Alter Self and Sonic Weapon) and if I advance my spell casting any furthur I have a pretty solid idea of what I'm going to get, so thanks for the suggestion, but that path isn't really where I want to take this particular character. I imagine him more as a powerful melee character with a splash of bard for the music, saves, skills, and magic.

edit

I was looking through my books and I found something interesting: Spellsword. It has the best bab (the main thing I was looking for), good fortitude and will saves (always nice), advances spellcasting every other level (a nice bonus, but keep going), reduces my arcane spell failure (which in turn will allow me to utilize heavier armor), and allows me to channel my spells (even area effects and rays) into my weapon. This prestige class is almost exactly what I was looking for, and I can qualify for it after taking some levels in fighter, which leads my new build plan to be Bard6(for more spells and to meet the skill requirements)/Fighter4(for wep spec and melee weapon mastery)/Spellsword10. Any thoughts or concerns pertaing to this plan are most welcome. I will post the feat plan as soon as I figure it out, but I am definiely adding Battle Dancer, which gives me a +2 to hit on all my attacks as long as I move a square during the effects of my bardic music.

[Lycar]

I'm not saying that it's as good as straight Bard, but it does have its uses. It provides much greater to-hit than Inspire Courage and provides Heedless Charge to any ally who doesn't either doesn't have three feats to spare or doesn't have an excuse to charge.

It basically provides your Arcane Caster or your Archer (whose defenses are largely unrelated to their AC) with a constant +14 or more to hit. That's the best you'll have at low levels.

No, it doesn't, that's the problem. Re-read the description of Inspire Recklessnes:

"... gaining the ability to decrease her Armour Class by a number less then or equal to her base attack bonus and add the same number to her melee attack rolls as a morale bonus " (emphasis mine)

Archers don't benefit at all and low-level characters don't have BAB 14 either.

At lv. 8 where you can have this ability the soonest (miscalculated in my first post, sorry) a straight bard does a +2 (or +3 with a certain lv. 1 spell) with Inspire Courage. A war chanter on the other hand.. well, i suppose it depends on the DM but since War Chanter levels stack for purposes of daily bardic music uses but not for determining which songs a bard has access to, it means his Inspire Courage ability doesn't improve with War Chanter levels.

So you trade a +2 morale bonus with no strings attached for a +8 for fighters and +6 for semi-fighters (at character lv. 8). Which you have to sacrifice AC for.

Might be well worth the trade on occasion, sure, but 3 levels of a prestige class for that strike me as a bad deal. Maybe it's just me.

It would still be neat if it had some synergy with Inspire Courage though. Maybe limit the effect to your BAB but you don't have to sacrifice the amount of AC that equals the morale bonus you already get from Inspire Courage. That would help a lot already. This way you get a real 1-1 ratio for your sacrifice (as opposed to 3-4 or 2-3).

And the class provides equal BA and more Skills (and a better skill list) than a standard fighter as well as Bardic Music uses-per-day advancement.

If you only want to dip for feats, those two daily uses you loose aren't that big a deal. Unless you want to go for Lyric Spellcasting. 2 more skillpoints then the fighter are not that great. The skill list is pretty good though.

Also, if you're criticizing the War Chanter for its power, advocating Reserve Feats (beyond Touch of Healing) strikes me as a bit odd.

There are a few which are pretty neat when you think about it. Getting the prerequisites is a bit** for a bard unfortunately. Depending on your intentions it might mean a sub-par spell selection in a few instances.

On the other hand, Dissonant Chord fits the bill for Clap of Thunder and isn't that bad a choice for a melee bard. And the abilty to deliver 3d6 of melee touch attacks pretty much all day long is not to be sneered at...

Combat Expertise is your friend here.

Lycar

[Temp]

"... gaining the ability to decrease her Armour Class by a number less then or equal to her base attack bonus and add the same number to her melee attack rolls as a morale bonus " (emphasis mine)

Blast; I've been led astray by faulty internet sources.

...That means Warchanter really has no redeeming qualities.

I would still dip Feat Rogue before Fighter, though. 12 skills (from a good list) and Trapfinding/Evasion beat 4 HP any day.

... my new build plan to be Bard6(for more spells and to meet the skill requirements)/Fighter4(for wep spec and melee weapon mastery)/Spellsword10. Any thoughts or concerns pertaing to this plan are most welcome. I will post the feat plan as soon as I figure it out, but I am definiely adding Battle Dancer, which gives me a +2 to hit on all my attacks as long as I move a square during the effects of my bardic music.

What do you plan on channeling without Lyric Thaumaturge or Sublime Chord levels? Spellsword reduces your spellcasting failure, but it Dumps your spellcasting abilities; you'd be better off casting as a full-level bard in Heavy Armor with spell failure than a mangled half-caster Bard in full plate without ASF.

Also, Battle Caster (CAr) and Smiting Spell (PHB2) turn a straight Bard into essentially the same thing. With Snowflake Wardance, the Straight Bard will probably pull ahead. (And your character doesn't seem "smart" enough for Arcane Strike, but Channel Spell and Insightful Strike are fitting?)

If you must take 10 levels of Spellsword, go Bard 5/Marshal 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 2/Sacred Exorcist 2/Spellsword 4.

Marshal provides Armor Proficiencies and a Minor Aura, which contributes well to your Charisma synergy.
Sublime Chord provides some spells that may actually be worth channeling.
Sacred Exorcist provides Turn Undead, which can fuel Divine Feats like Divine Might.

[kyuubigan]

Marshal provides Armor Proficiencies and a Minor Aura, which contributes well to your Charisma synergy.
Sublime Chord provides some spells that may actually be worth channeling.
Sacred Exorcist provides Turn Undead, which can fuel Divine Feats like Divine Might.

I don't really have access to the book with the Marshal class, and I don't think I could meet the skill requirements for Sacred Exorcist, but the Sublime Chord is very interesting indeed, despite the hit to Bab.

[Temp]

I don't really have access to the book with the Marshal class, and I don't think I could meet the skill requirements for Sacred Exorcist, but the Sublime Chord is very interesting indeed, despite the hit to Bab.

You should be able to hit SE with cross-class skills (15 Int and all) and Marshal's on the Wizard's page, but those are only minor details.

Bard 5/Fighter 1/Spellsword 4/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 6/Sublime Chord 2 works just as well.