Spiked Chain

[herrhauptmann]

As we all know, you can wield a spiked chain and strike opponents both adjacent and 10 feet away in the same round.

However, the one DM i've seen that actually included spiked chains in his campaign, required that no ally get within 10 feet of the chain wielder. If they did, they would mess up the chain guys attack routine and prevent him from attacking.
Now it seems to me that was my DM being an idiot, because what about wielders of polearms? Whips? Or even just a guy with a sword. Wouldn't his rule mean that allies could not fight shoulder to shoulder?
Opinions

[greenknight]

I think there's a certain justification in it. Polearms are (naturally enough) on a rigid pole, so you can get a reasonable amount of control with them. I think you'd have to whirl the spiked chain around a bit in a circular motion, and to get the full 10' reach you'd have to do a horizontal circle at that. It would be very hard to hit your enemies while avoiding your allies at that rate. As for whips, maybe your DM thinks they aren't really all that useful in combat and doesn't penalize anyone any further for using them?

[ZekeArgo]

As we all know, you can wield a spiked chain and strike opponents both adjacent and 10 feet away in the same round.

However, the one DM i've seen that actually included spiked chains in his campaign, required that no ally get within 10 feet of the chain wielder. If they did, they would mess up the chain guys attack routine and prevent him from attacking.
Now it seems to me that was my DM being an idiot, because what about wielders of polearms? Whips? Or even just a guy with a sword. Wouldn't his rule mean that allies could not fight shoulder to shoulder?
Opinions

The biggest problem with spiked chains is the illustration given in the PHB of them.

Frankly, a chain is a very, very basic weapon. How many movies have you seen with a streetfight or brawl where theres at *least* one guy who uses a chain? Nevermind the plethora of historic weapons that utilized them.

Peoples problems with the thing are arbitrary. One goofy illustration and poof: tons of useless rules for the one good melee weapon other than the greatsword.

[h2doh]

There is no rule saying that allies interfere with any reach weapon. You are supposed to be skilled with the weapon, not flailing it around with no concern with who you hit. It is the DM's call but he is inventing rules that do not exist. Ask him about if all reach weapons are like this or just the chain.

[herrhauptmann]

There is no rule saying that allies interfere with any reach weapon. You are supposed to be skilled with the weapon, not flailing it around with no concern with who you hit. It is the DM's call but he is inventing rules that do not exist. Ask him about if all reach weapons are like this or just the chain.

It's a bit of a moot point at this time h2doh. I left that group because the DM was being so stupid. 7 person party, ECL7, so we're fighting a 13th level priestess of Lolth with 2 15ft flesh golems. Saving throws vs her mass inflicts are so high that the only way to survive is to roll a natural twenty. The rest of the party didn't even know why they were adventuring in the underdark because the plotline was so bad. (Think DM of the Rings, but worse)

edit: Oh yeah, if my allies can't stand within 10 ft of me, wouldn't that mean that I couldn't attack the evil priestess 10 ft away because there was an orc next to me?

[Aquillion]

One thing you have to remember with the Spiked Chain is that generally, you're spending a feat to get Exotic Weapons Proficiency just to begin using it. Usually you're spending even more feats to get the most out of it. So of course it's better than other weapons; all exotic weapons that are actually intended to be used in gameplay should be significantly better than regular melee weapons.

Unfortunately, this is pretty much only true for the spiked chain...

[Overlard]

One thing you have to remember with the Spiked Chain is that generally, you're spending a feat to get Exotic Weapons Proficiency just to begin using it. Usually you're spending even more feats to get the most out of it. So of course it's better than other weapons; all exotic weapons that are actually intended to be used in gameplay should be significantly better than regular melee weapons.

Unfortunately, this is pretty much only true for the spiked chain...

Not true at all. There's also the... uhhh... hmm.

The kurasi gama from the DMG?

Just look at the light exotic weapons in the PHB: why?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, there ARE good exotics out there: They're known as elven blades, more specifically lightblade, thinblade, and courtblade.

[Stephen_E]

Shuriken and Dwavern Waraxe are the other decent core Exotic Weapons, but for Shuriken it's easier taking a lev or 2 of Monk, and for Dwarven Waraxe you just play a Dwarf Fighter.

Stephen

[Hannes]

Am I the only one who reads the spiked chain description as not broken?
As I understand it, spiked chain has reach. In addition, unlike other reach weapons, it can be used to attack an adjacent foe.
As in, you can attack 10 ft. away, OR an adjacent foe.

[Azerian Kelimon]

That's nary the brokenness. The brokennes stems from using that to AoO people.

[Hannes]

So it's not the weapon that's broken, it's the AoO characters.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Aye. The brokenness is allowing an AoO char to use a weapon that gives it extra reach, which means extra AoO's. It's a reason bladewhips are fearsome.

[Gungnir]

So it's not the weapon that's broken, it's the AoO characters.

Perfect Combo.

[Roderick_BR]

You DM thinks that you need to swing it around you to use, and it's not the case. Point it to him that the description doesn't mention an "open space" around the wielder, and if he asks it, it'll be house-ruling.

[Theodoxus]

My DM outlawed Spiked Chains, not on account of the AoO's which he was ok with, but because of the trip/disarm cheese the weapon allows. One character nick-named 'the chain-weilding maniac' would start every round with a disarm then trip attack, then make lots of AoO's when the opponent was getting up and retrieving their weapon(s).

It got to the point that the DM stopped sending armed opponents at us. When my friend and I joined the game, we didn't know about this guy, and built a couple of rogues around the chain, as AoO monkeys... we never used the trip or disarm rules, but we got caught in the ban. Fortunately the DM was cool enough to allow us to completely rework our combat feats, and we're just as happy with paired daggers.

Spiked Chains fall into that nebulous continuum of 'why do people think they're so good?' Once that begins to happen, you can be certain there is a definitive cheese factor. The problem only starts when the person playing with cheese uses it so often the only course of correction is removal.

Thanks to boards like these, the face of D&D has changed much. Back in the 80s, the closest thing to a forum were the Dragon magazines. Where you'd read about tricks the developers had thought up. Sometimes, you'd run into a really smart player who thought outside the box, and came up with unique uses for spells and abilities - but it was rare, and you couldn't manipulate all the rules, nor could any one person be expected to understand how everything meshed together. But now, we have 10 thousand experts on different aspects of the game, all sharing their narrowly focused research. Then 10 thousand other people start mixing information from one source with another and we have distilled countless man hours into the perfect gems of cheese nirvana. Add in power creep into the mix, and within days of a new release information is pouring out on how best to maximize your character. We end up with things like DMM, Factotums, Spiked Chains, Batman, etc.

As long as it's kept in the realm of 'this in an interesting synergy' and doesn't come into play in games, very often, they're just fun thought puzzles. But things quickly turn ugly when super-optimized characters actually show up in a game where other characters aren't quite so well off...

I found that out a couple weeks ago, when, during the second session of an epic game I'd joined - as an IotSV - I could easily have ruined the entire nights session by killing off the horde of bad guys. But, after the first rush, with everyone saying 'I wait to see if any survive disintigration' I canceled the effect and let them have their fun. I found out that being Batman isn't quite as thrilling in a real game as it is in the movies.

Theo

[Armads]

My DM outlawed Spiked Chains, not on account of the AoO's which he was ok with, but because of the trip/disarm cheese the weapon allows. One character nick-named 'the chain-weilding maniac' would start every round with a disarm then trip attack, then make lots of AoO's when the opponent was getting up and retrieving their weapon(s).

I don't actually understand how this tactic is 'cheesy'. The +8 disarming bonus from trip is more than negated with locked gauntlets, and the trip can be negated with swift action stand-up-with-no-AoO-items like Anklets of Translocation, a certain pair of boots (in MIC), one of the skill tricks in CScoundrel.

[Ralfarius]

I would counter the logic of herrhauptmann's DM by saying that the spiked chain may need to be swung about prior to any attack. However, the fact that you can attack opponents 5 feet away means that you can 'choke up' on the grip significantly. Therefore, the swinging can be done within your threatened area, or even right above your head on your own 5-foot square. The attack is simply a matter of releasing it (like a sling) at the correct moment so that the momentum carries the length of the chain into the face of your opponent.

Actual chain-fighting aside, I'd say that's a pretty decent argument against such a kooky house ruling.

[Dausuul]

The closest real-world parallel to the spiked chain is the kusari-gama, and there is a story of a kusari-gama wielder who died when his sword-wielding foe lured him into a bamboo grove, denying him room to swing his weapon. So, yeah, I think this house rule is justified.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually...you DO need some room to swing it around, say, by twirling it at your side, so that you can use that momentum to throw it farther and more powerfully. You DON'T, however, need all of the squares free. You don't even need an extra square free, you just need to be alone in your square.

[Attilargh]

A bamboo grove surrounds one pretty completely, and would probably be fairly dense as well. While someone standing within 10 feet of a guy with a whirling piece of chain is most definitely dense, the situations are not that similar.

[Saph]

The biggest problem with spiked chains is the illustration given in the PHB of them.

Frankly, a chain is a very, very basic weapon. How many movies have you seen with a streetfight or brawl where theres at *least* one guy who uses a chain?

Lots, and they were mostly really really dumb.

The spiked chain is just an incredibly stupid weapon, so the fact that it's so effective irritates many people, including me. There is no way you can use a chain out to 10 feet in cramped conditious with any kind of reliability. And as for putting spikes on it . . . honestly.

So I sympathise with the houserule. Just use a guisarme or something.

- Saph

[Keld Denar]

From a mechanical standpoint, a spiked chain represents a trade-off. The character is spending a feat (a limited resource) for a weapon that mechanically combines the benefit of 2 weapons (a glaive and armor spikes). It allows the character to invest more money into one items enhancement bonus instead of dividing that money between the enhancement bonuses of 2 weapons. You also gain the synergy that having focus feats count for all attacks, instead of 1/2.

In my opinion, this is a fair trade. You are trading a feat for gold and a little synergy. A character only gets so many feats over their lifetime, and most of the time, only so much gold over their life time. Its then up to the player to determine which is more valuable to their character.

Also, it is worth noting, since many people often overlook it, that while a spiked chain CAN be used for tripping, it recieves no mechanical benefit to the trip roll. It DOES recieve a +2 to opposed disarm rolls when used in a disarm attempt, but there is no bonus to trip. And disarm is mechanically an inferior choice, because locked gauntlets provide such a huge difference that is poorly modeled by the other disarm mechanics.

EDIT: And if you don't like the flavor of the spiked chain, we'll call it somethign else. Call it a spear type weapon. The weapon is used at range by thrusting the sharp end at people. Then, at the area where the front hand goes, there are a couple of spiked projections that can be punched with. There is also a hook on one side that can be used to trip, and aides with disarm attempts. Being proficient with it means that a character can intersperse close and reach attacks at will, but requires extra training (exotic weapon). It is enchanted as a single weapon, but can be sundered as one. Damage on all spikes is 2d4 at medium size. There you go....mechanically, its exactly a spiked chain. Flavorwise, its more of a pole arm. No Jackie Chan physics defying properties about it.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Also, it is worth noting, since many people often overlook it, that while a spiked chain CAN be used for tripping, it recieves no mechanical benefit to the trip roll.

No other weapons from the PHB receive a bonus to Trip attempts.

[Keld Denar]

No other weapons from the PHB receive a bonus to Trip attempts.

I thought there were a couple that did...like halberd, and maybe like, kama. I could be wrong, it has been known to happen. As usual, I'm at work and AFB.

EDIT: And the way you say "other" makes it sound like the spiked chain does, and no other weapons do, which the spiked chain does NOT. Just to pick a bit of nit.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I thought there were a couple that did...like halberd, and maybe like, kama. I could be wrong, it has been known to happen. As usual, I'm at work and AFB.

You are wrong.

It is very rare. I have not looked through splatbooks, but I will be surprised if there are more tahn one or two if any at all.

EDIT: And the way you say "other" makes it sound like the spiked chain does, and no other weapons do, which the spiked chain does NOT. Just to pick a bit of nit.

You made it sound like the Chain did not and every other weapon did, therefore such a use.

[Keld Denar]

You are wrong.

Doh, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

You made it sound like the Chain did not and every other weapon did, therefore such a use.

Also, it is worth noting, since many people often overlook it, that while a spiked chain CAN be used for tripping, it recieves no mechanical benefit to the trip roll. It DOES recieve a +2 to opposed disarm rolls when used in a disarm attempt, but there is no bonus to trip.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I made it clear in the bolded part. I didn't think I had to exclude every other weapon, since we were talking specifically about one. Either way, it SHOULD be perfectly clear now. BY OUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM GRAMATICALLY CORRECT! or something like that.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I made it clear in the bolded part. I didn't think I had to exclude every other weapon, since we were talking specifically about one.

You don't, but, to me at least, it seemed like you perhaps thought the lack of a bonus was something special, since you devoted a whole paragraph to pointing out that it received no bonus on trip attempts and claimed it was often overlooked.

Either way, it SHOULD be perfectly clear now. BY OUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM GRAMATICALLY CORRECT! or something like that.

Indeed.

[Keld Denar]

You don't, but, to me at least, it seemed like you perhaps thought the lack of a bonus was something special, since you devoted a whole paragraph to pointing out that it received no bonus on trip attempts and claimed it was often overlooked.

Nah, I included an entire paragraph on it because not once, not twice, but several times, I've had players come to me saying that their trip check was (HUGE#). Looking at their math, I saw they included a +2 to trip checks because they THOUGHT that was included in the tripping feature, and got it confused with the +2 disarm. So, if multiple people have made this mistake, I'm either surrounded by idiots, or several other people have made this mistake as well. *looks around* THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!!!! OMG I'M SURROUNDED!!!!

[/tongue-in-cheek]

[Idea Man]

I've had the pleasure of a chain-wielding maniac in my game before. Done correctly, melee encounters are almost completely nullified. I think I had to hit him with giants CR 4 above the party's level before something actually threatened him.

Sure, CWMs have a huge gaping weakness: archers! But a wind wall from the wizard can shut that down too. Maybe magic? Sure, but that works on any fighter, and I want to challenge him, not kill him.

Always had an issue with the double reach option the weapon provided, plus the fact it's two-handed allows for substantially powerful attacks and resistance to disarm (being two-handed). On the upside, it should be the weapon of choice for any dwarven defender.