Sakon & Ukon (from Naruto)

[Gruftzwerg]

Sakon & Ukon

Welcome to my homage to Sakon & Ukon from the Naruto franchise. The build will feature Ukon abusing the Symbiotic template (Savage Species) to basically become their Ghostly Visage symbiont (subtype) familiar (Fiend Folio). At lvl 8 the familiar comes into play and at lvl 10 the full symbiosis is accomplished. Note that after this point (lvl10) when I refer to Ukon, I'm actually talking about the familiar (GV), since Ukon becomes the template for the familiar. But more on that later.
The build is not a full adaptation, but focuses mostly on the main abilities of the twins.

Background of the twins

Sakon & Ukon are Dvati twins. They are very attached to each other as it is common for Dvati. Together they travel the world to become the best fighting duo the world has ever seen. They have a neck for strong dark powers (Swordsage / Shadow Sun Ninja; Dread Necromancer) which influences their career as adventurers. Becoming a perfect unit and to fight as "one" is their biggest dream. Let's hope for their best and that they may achieve their goal...

Race: Dvati

LA buy-off: Dvati come with a +1 LA. I have assumed a buy-off of the +1LA, but it is not mandatory for the build. If you dislike it, you can skip it and ignore the last lvl of the build. The last levels are not that important.
The build doesn't use anywhere else additional XP (as far as I'm aware of^^).

Swordsage 5 / Dread Necromancer 7 / Wyrm Wizard 2 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Warshaper 5

Base Stat // maxed stat (including items + lvl ups)
STR: 14 // 24* (+4 Warshaper, +6 item *sole for Sakon); Note that Ukon later has (-) Str due to becoming the template for his incorporeal familiar)
DEX: 14
CON: 14 //24* (+4 Warshaper, +6 item *sole for Sakon); Note that Ukon later has (-) Con due to becoming the template for his undead familiar)
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 14 // 30 (+6 Item, 5 from Wish & Lvl Up)

Alignment: C-G

LVL	Class	BAB	Fort	Refl	Will	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	Unarmed Swordsage (1) (Adaptation) (Tome of Battle)	+0	+0	+2	+2	Concentration: 4 Hide: 4 Intimidate: 4 Knowledge (Arcana): 2 Move Silently: 4 Spellcraft: 2 Tumble: 4	Additional Favored Class (UA)	Unarmed Strike (1d6) Quick to Act: +1 Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): Tiger Claw (kukri, kama, claw, handaxe, greataxe, and unarmed strike) Stance: Island Of Blades Maneuvers: Burning Blade Wind Stride Sapphire Nightmare Blade Counter Charge Mighty Throw Sudden Leap
2nd	Dread Necromancer (1) (Heroes of Horror)	+0	+0	+2	+4	Hide: 4.5 Knowledge (Arcana): 3 Spellcraft: 3		Charnel Touch Rebuke Undead
3rd	Dread Necromancer (2)	+1	+0	+2	+5	Hide: 5 Knowledge (Arcana): 4 Spellcraft: 4	Coercive Spell (DotU)	Lich Body DR2
4th	Dread Necromancer (3)	+1	+1	+3	+5	Hide: 5.5 Knowledge (Arcana): 5 Spellcraft: 5		Negative Energy Burst 1/day
5th	Dread Necromancer (4)	+2	+1	+3	+6	Hide: 6 Knowledge (Arcana): 6 Spellcraft: 6		Advanced Learning: Kelgore's Grave Mist (PH II) Mental Bastion +2
6th	Dread Necromancer (5)	+2	+1	+3	+6	Hide: 6.5 Knowledge (Arcana): 7 Spellcraft: 7	Arcane Preparation (Complete Arcane)	Fear Aura
7th	Dread Necromancer (6)	+3	+2	+4	+7	Hide: 7 Knowledge (Arcana): 8 Spellcraft: 8		Scabrous Touch 1/day
8th	Dread Necromancer (7)	+3	+2	+4	+7	Hide: 7.5 Knowledge (Arcana): 9 Spellcraft: 9		Lich Body DR 4 Summon Familiar (Ghostly Visage) (GV is from Fiend Folio)
9th	Wyrm Wizard (1) (Dragon Magic)	+3	+2	+4	+9	Concentration: 8 Hide: 8	Enspell Familiar (Dragon Compendium)	Knowledge of the Wyrm
10th	Wyrm Wizard (2)	+4	+2	+4	+10	Concentration: 13		Spell Research (Polymorph)
11th	Warshaper (1) (Complete Warrior)	+4	+4	+4	+10	Concentration: 14 Hide: 10		Morphic Immunities Morphic Weapons
12th	Shadow Sun Ninja (1) (Tome of Battle)	+4	+4	+6	+12	Concentration: 15 Hide: 14	Underfoot Combat (Races of the Wild)	Monk Abilities Touch of the Shadow Sun New Maneuver: Cloak of Deception
13th	Warshaper (2)	+5	+5	+7	+13	Concentration: 16 Hide: 16		Morphic Body
14th	Warshaper (3)	+6	+5	+7	+13	Concentration: 17 Hide: 17 Tumble: 9		Morphic Reach
15th	Swordsage (2)	+7	+5	+8	+14	Concentration: 18 Hide: 18 Tumble: 10	Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild)	AC Bonus New Stance: Assassin's Stance New Maneuver: Mind Strike
16th	Warshaper (4)	+8	+6	+8	+14	Concentration: 19 Hide: 19 Tumble: 11		Morphic Healing
17th	Warshaper (5)	+8	+6	+8	+14	Concentration: 20 Hide: 20 Tumble: 12		Multimorph
18th	Swordsage (3)	+9	+7	+8	+14	Concentration: 21 Hide: 21 Tumble: 17	Combat Reflexes	New Maneuver: Greater Insightful Strike
19th	Swordsage (4)	+10	+7	+9	+15	Concentration: 22 Hide: 22 Tumble: 22		Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike) New Maneuver: Ballista Throw
20th	Swordsage (5)	+10	+7	+9	+15	Balance: 5 Concentration: 23 Hide: 23		Quick to Act +2 New Stance: Shifting Defense New Maneuver: Death in the Dark

Notes on Skills:
There are some sole used to qualify for stuff. Due to very limited skill points in this build, the main focus is sole on 3 skills. Concentration is for casting defensively and for the Greater Insightful Strike maneuver. Ukton makes use of Hide to enter his enemies space without being noticed (incorporeal movement in the ground). Move Silently ain't needed since Ukon is incorporeal. Tumble is raised to avoid AoO if the enemy is aware of Ukon and he tries to enter/leave their space.
A few remaining leftover-points @lvl20 are invested into Balance as defense against forced Balance rolls, to avoid becoming flat-footed.
Finally note that after the symbiotic template kicks in at lvl 10, Ukon will profit double from each invested rank. Once the virtual ranks as familiar and then he gets all ranks as racial bonus from the Symbiotic template.


Spells per Day

Level	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	5	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	6	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-
9th+	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-

Spoiler: Recommended Items

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(S)= Sakon
(U)= Ukon

(S/U) Necklace of Natural Attacks (Unarmed Strike) +5 + Sizing + Ghost Touch
The Sizing is there to maximize the healing from Touch of the Shadow Sun, but can also be used to maximize dmg on low AC targets. Ghost Touch helps Ukon to attack in his incorporeal (GV familiar) form.
Add +6 CON on Sakon's necklace as secondary effect.

(S) Belt +6 Str
Sakon is referred to as the more active one of the twins, since he is carrying Ukon most of the time. Thus he is more Str focused.

(U) Gloves +6 Dex
Ukon favors Dex (due to becoming incorporeal).

(S/U) Cloak +6 Cha
Cha is boosting so many stuff. Not sole the Dread Necromancer spells and abilities, but also the abilities that the GV familiar offers scale with Cha.

(S/U) Monk's Tattoo
+4 to effective Monk levels. Not really mandatory, but I wanted to keep the flavor of the tattoo they have in the anime. Further the 10ft extra movementspeed basically double the speed of the GV. Thus, nice to have.

Background Story from the Ghostly Visage:

Our lil Ghostly Visage is wandering alone in the ruins of a long forgotten empire. Centuries have passed since the glory of the city and it inhabitants. If been a long time since his master and creator died. What was his name again? All those memories from the past seem more and more like an old forgotten dream. Since then, he is wandering around the ruins, possessing a rat from time to time and getting bored of this darkness.
After an unbearable eon of boredom he suddenly feels a call within him. He starts to see light, .. light at the end of the tunnel. He fully becomes engulfed in light and can't see anything anymore. The next thing he sees is the mumbling (summon familiar) face of Ukton.

Spoiler: Additional Notes on the GV symbiont

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The Ghostly Visage has a special Meld ability to connect to his host creature. This has a special interactions with the normal "detach & reattach" ability that all symbionts have (type trait). When a GV wants to leave a body, he has to manifest a Visage first to become "attached" and then can leave the body. While this is a minimal downside, on the other hand it allows the GV to bypass the 24h restriction for "reattaching", since it doesn't "re-attach". It Meld(s) into his target. Thus, the GV can leave and enter bodies without the normal time restrictions other symbionts have.

Spoiler: Level 1-7: A time without Familiar

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Sakon & Ukon start out as simple (unarmed) Swordsages. But they suddenly realize their hang for the dark powers surrounding the dead (Dread Necromancer). They even go so far to develop a technique to lower their enemies will (Coercive Spell: Kelgore's Grave Mist; low dmg but no save and -2 Will penalty for 3 rounds after taking dmg).
They learn to use negative energy, either in a burst or channeled into a touch (Charnel Touch / Scabrous Touch).

Ukon starts to feel jealous about other casters who all seem to have a nice and cute lil familiar. He wants one too, but Sakon is against it. He (S) thinks it will disturb their combat flow "to work together as one". But Ukons urge can't be stopped anymore and thus he starts to learn the ritual to summon a familiar himself. Much to the annoyance of Sakon.

Spoiler: Level 8-9: A love triangle is formed

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Finally Ukon managed to summon a Ghostly Visage familiar and as expected, Sakon is not amused.. Ukon wants the attention of their new familiar, the Ghostly Visage tries to get accepted by Sakon and Sakon wants Ukon's attention back all for himself. The empathic links between the twins is put at a hard test.
Our lil GV and Ukon realize that they need to do something about Sakon's mood. He (S) hates him (the GV), but we just want to become one with him too (Meld ability). But so far we need to hide in Ukon's body (which again makes Sakon jealous because we become one with Ukon..^^). Ukon and the GV start to look for better symbiosis options and even look into transmutation magic for this specific reason (Wyrm Wizard, starting the research for Poly at lvl 10).

Spoiler: Ghostly Visage starting stats

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STR: (-)
DEX: 14
CON: (-)
INT: 12
WIS: 9
CHA: 16

Special Attacks: Gaze of Terror, Meld, Visage
Special Qualities: Incorporeal Subtype, Mind Shielding, Symbiont Traits, Undead Traits
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will
Skill-bonus: +4 for Bluff and Intimidate

Note that the DC's of our Meld & Gaze of Terror abilities profits from being a familiar (since we can use our masters' HD for any HD related effects). The DCs for the abilities are calculated with the following formula:
DC = 10 + 1/2HD + Cha
DC 17 = 10 + 8/2 + 3
So we are starting with a strong base DC of 17 (Will) which will just increase over time. The Gaze of Terror ability is a nice option to paralyze multiple enemies at once.

Finally note that the GV doesn't profit from the Natural Armor bonus (due to being incorporeal) and the increased INT (because its own INT is already higher).

Enspell Familiar allows us to leave the masters' side and still profit from shared spells (E.g. Chill Touch which enables us to make touch attacks or later for Polymorph).

Spoiler: Level 10: The unholy trinity/unity is now complete

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With Ukon's help we now managed to obtain a much higher level of symbiosis. Ukon did share Polymorph with the GV (the GV gets turned into a large animal while Ukon turns himself into a small one) (remind you, that the share spell ability helps to bypass the normal limitations of polymorph to affect the GV). Now we can turn into legal targets for the Symbiotic Template. Ukon (guest) becomes a +1LA template for the GV familiar (host). Ukon basically shares all his abilities with us. This includes mental stats, feats, special abilities/attacks and all skill ranks as bonus for the host. The latter causes the familiar to have skill modifiers that are double the masters ranks! But there are also some downsides. The template doesn't carry over any class levels, so we are missing the caster lvls to cast the spells. On the other hand, we now count as one of the twins and still need to cast together with Sakon when he does so. But other than that, this is a straight power boost. With all the additional abilities and altered mental Stats, we need to recalculate the EGO score of the familiar. Normally we have an Ego score of 10 as a GV. Calculate the difference in mental modifier changes and add 2 for each special attack (e.g. Charnel Touch, Negative Energy Burst, Scabrous Touch..) and 1 for each special quality (e.g. Rebuke Undead, DR). Even with a restrictive reading (not counting maneuvers as special attacks/abilities), this will raise the EGO score very high (20+). With this, Ukon (as template for the GV from now on) can try to take control over his victims (he did successfully "Meld" into). If the foe failed the Will save for Meld, it will even more likely fail the even higher Will save against our Ego score. Note that neither the Meld ability nor the symbiont's ability to wrestle for control have the mind affecting tag, which makes this even more badass.

Ukon can now freely join Sakon's body or the body of anyone else who fails the save against his Meld ability. When Ukon detaches from Sakon, he can let him cast Polymorph and get his share of it. Their preferred form is Dark Stalker (due to sneak attack) which enhances their flanking combat style.

Spoiler: Level 11-15: Perfect Form

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Now Ukon can regrow his (unarmed strike) body parts when he manifest a face on his host (not the natural form of the GV!). Note that his magic items (e.g. Necklace and gloves) should reappear too and become temporary functional again. Downside here is that Ukon counts as tiny in this form. Thus we rely on morphic reach when we want to assist Sakon's attacks (or any other ally we join). Sizing can help with the visual size and dmg if you want (and if the enemies AC ain't to high..^^). Ghost Touch enables him to hit corporeal targets.

But the real party starts when Ukon now Melds into an enemy foe. If joining your enemies body wasn't unfair enough, now you can beat them while being attached to em. And if the 50% incorporeal misschance wasn't already unfair, we add Confound the Big Folk for another 50% misschance (due to agility) as second layer on top. If other enemies should try to attack Ukon in this state, they have an effectively 75% to hit his host/their ally instead.

The Touch of the Shadow Sun is a source of unlimited free action heals. Since Ukon is an undead, he can be healed with the negative energy turns, while Sakon can profit from the positive energy heals. Using the skill for healing causes the touch to become a free action (for a willing target). Thus both Sakon and Ukon can abuse this ability every turn when they are attached (! manifest face) to heal each other. Abuse the sizing enchantment to increase unarmed strike size temporary to colossal for maximum heals. Should either one drop low HP, they can "quickly heal up by joining forces" for a few rounds.

Assassin's Stance provides extra Sneak Attack dice for our flanking twins. Together with the Dark Stalker form we can get up to 5d6 sneak attack dmg. Nothing impressive, but still a nice boost.

Mind Strike can deal ability damage to Wis, which further drops the targets Will save. Combined with our early game combo, we can drop enemies Will save a lot. This further makes it easier for Ukon to use his Meld ability and wrestle for control (if he wants to).

Spoiler: Level 16-20: The Final Edge

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Due to Touch of the Shadow Sun, the Morphic Healing gets hard overshadowed, but it is still a nice passive healing for both, Sakon and Ukon.

Multimorph helps to get the most out of each Polymorph cast. We can basically change to other legal forms if the situation should require it. This is imho a great ability to have.

Greater Insightful Strike (GIS) is just GREAT!^^ Because Ukon profits double from his masters' ranks, we can achieve pretty high numbers. @lvl20: 23 virtual ranks from being a familiar + 23 racial bonuses from the Symbiotic template for a +46 concentration skill roll modifier. The results range from 47 - 66 (hits AC 47-66) and the dmg gets doubled to 94-132 dmg. Most stuff will just die to a single application of this.

Balista Throw is 6d6 dmg in a 60ft line. Nothing impressive but still an AoE that we can use once each encounter if needed.

Death in the Mark is not as strong as GIS, but still impressive with up to 15d6 dmg against a flat-footed target that has failed a save (yeah that much worse then GIS..^^). But it's still a good 2nd offensive maneuver up the sleeve if the situation should demand it.

Shifting Defense is the final layer of defense which will be mostly used by Sakon. (mainly added because of adaptation reason, but still a nice capstone defensive ability. Especially due the low HP nature of this build, a good option to avoid melee damage if you don't want to take any further dmg).

END

I hope you enjoyed the story of the Dvati twins and their lil Ghostly Visage familiar that helps em to form a perfrect bound between em. While this build has very low BAB for a gish type of build, the special flanking the build features (+3 for being Dvati) helps to compensate that to some degree. Further, fighting is just for toying around with your enemies. Take control over the strongest enemy and kill the others with him. Sakon can watch from a safe position in the back, while Ukon can easily handle most of the enemies just by himself. His high AC (deflection bonus from raised Cha score of the real Ukon + 4AC from Underfoot Combat) combined with the 2 layers of 50% misschance will make him hard to stop. And if things get to hard (low HP), he can easily detach & hide in the ground to get back to Sakon (and heal back in his body). We have a pretty badass familiar that is even better than its own master when it comes to skill use (see Greater Insightful Strike).

Ukon is the stuff nightmares are made of! He joins your body and either takes control over it, or just beats you to death without any escape option for you left. I can't imagine a scarier way to kill your enemies^^.

I hope that you all enjoyed this silly build and that you leave some feedback! =)

[Dragonsworn]

Wow, that was awesome

Using symbiosis to become a template for your familiar......... absolutely ingenious! Melding into someone's body and destroying them from within.....one of the most sinister things imaginable (taking control of them, though potentially worst/evilest, doesn't seem as impactful, though in reality it would be far worse!). And if someone were to go a less absurd race than Dvati, that is actually a valid combat strategy. Sure, it might be tough to pull off and, depending on opponent, its effectiveness could be questionable, but you are completely protected while in their body (or at least 75% - still great) and the seer implications and possibilities are astounding!

I can't wait for you to do Pein

[Gruftzwerg]

Wow, that was awesome

Using symbiosis to become a template for your familiar......... absolutely ingenious! Melding into someone's body and destroying them from within.....one of the most sinister things imaginable (taking control of them, though potentially worst/evilest, doesn't seem as impactful, though in reality it would be far worse!). And if someone were to go a less absurd race than Dvati, that is actually a valid combat strategy. Sure, it might be tough to pull off and, depending on opponent, its effectiveness could be questionable, but you are completely protected while in their body (or at least 75% - still great) and the seer implications and possibilities are astounding!

I can't wait for you to do Pein

Happy to see that you enjoyed it.

For this specific build (not the combo) only Dvati works. But there are other options to get the combo to work.

The problem here is that the Symbiotic template is a bit complicated to (ab)buse:
A. You want to be the guest, because you don't want to lose control of your character.
B. The guest becomes the template and thus temporary stops to exist as creature. This denies any possible xp gain for the guest. Only the host can gain xp.

So, you want to be the guest, while still having your own body intact for XP gain. So far I have discovered 3 legal ways to use the template as PC:
1. Simulacrum / Ice Assassin (see my Orochimaru build's Curse Mark section.)
2. Being Dvati (one becomes the template while the other body is still intact to gain xp.)
3. Not revealed yet. I'm still working on the build, so I don't wanna reveal this yet (if someone really needs to know PM me).


Sorry but so far I have no plans for Pain (or any other Naruto character). But that might change. I've so many build concepts that it is sometimes difficult even for me to say which one will come up next. So far all 3 naruto builds have been long time projects (the past 2+ years) due to the difficulty of adapting their abilities to 3.5.
So keep your expectations low in that regard. If someone else wants to build any naruto characters, I can always offer some help.

__________________

Btw: I find it interesting how accurate 3.5 is sometimes. I mean, as in the naruto franchise, Ukon ended up being the physically weaker one of the twins, STR & CON (-). And only Ukon can "Meld" into others. I'm more and more convinced that the mangeka maybe have played 3.5 ^^

[Dragonsworn]

Happy to see that you enjoyed it.

For this specific build (not the combo) only Dvati works. But there are other options to get the combo to work.

The problem here is that the Symbiotic template is a bit complicated to (ab)buse:
A. You want to be the guest, because you don't want to lose control of your character.
B. The guest becomes the template and thus temporary stops to exist as creature. This denies any possible xp gain for the guest. Only the host can gain xp.

So, you want to be the guest, while still having your own body intact for XP gain. So far I have discovered 3 legal ways to use the template as PC:
1. Simulacrum / Ice Assassin (see my Orochimaru build's Curse Mark section.)
2. Being Dvati (one becomes the template while the other body is still intact to gain xp.)
3. Not revealed yet. I'm still working on the build, so I don't wanna reveal this yet (if someone really needs to know PM me).

Yeah, the build needs Dvati, but I was referring to the combo, which (barring the problems you mentioned) can be used with any race

I am actually quite interested in that, because I have a build concept in mind to combine great physical and magical powers, and this template was one of the ways I had thought of as a way to accomplish it (still working on which creatures to use though). I would be very interested to hear the solution you have come up with, though I suppose you would like a person learning this to refrain from posting a build to be reviewed until you have yourself introduced your method, correct?

Sorry but so far I have no plans for Pain (or any other Naruto character). But that might change. I've so many build concepts that it is sometimes difficult even for me to say which one will come up next. So far all 3 naruto builds have been long time projects (the past 2+ years) due to the difficulty of adapting their abilities to 3.5.
So keep your expectations low in that regard. If someone else wants to build any naruto characters, I can always offer some help.

Ooohhhhhhh I was really lookig forward to seeing how you would replicate his abilities. Because from your previous threads, some of your methods are not of my taste, but others (like this build here) have been absolutely astounding!

Btw: I find it interesting how accurate 3.5 is sometimes. I mean, as in the naruto franchise, Ukon ended up being the physically weaker one of the twins, STR & CON (-). And only Ukon can "Meld" into others. I'm more and more convinced that the mangeka maybe have played 3.5 ^^

I might be misremembering, but I believe none of the two were weaker than the other, it was just that Sakon was the one *usually* doing the walking/fighting/general heavy lifting while Ukon casually slacked off in their shared body and was thus not *used to* physical activity, but was very much capable of doing so. I believe at one point Sakon was damaged enough that Ukon had to switch and "pilot" them....I could ofc be wrong. Can't check it right now, but I will first chance I get

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, the build needs Dvati, but I was referring to the combo, which (barring the problems you mentioned) can be used with any race

I am actually quite interested in that, because I have a build concept in mind to combine great physical and magical powers, and this template was one of the ways I had thought of as a way to accomplish it (still working on which creatures to use though). I would be very interested to hear the solution you have come up with, though I suppose you would like a person learning this to refrain from posting a build to be reviewed until you have yourself introduced your method, correct?

I think it will be the next build in line, so it wouldn't be such big of a deal to reveal it to you now. I'll PM you.

I gave the combo another thought. Any other build option would end up much weaker. The problems:
- Only as familiar, the GV has scaling HP
- only Dread Necromancers have access to GV as familiar (needs 7lvl of DN)
Other builds would need to rely on "Graft Flesh" to craft a GV and that one would have a static HP. And waiting for Simulacrum (needs 13 lvls of wizard, or DN 13 + Wyrm Wizard 4) would just delay the build even more. Overall a very bad trade off here. Thus the showcased build is imho the sole practical one here.

Ooohhhhhhh I was really lookig forward to seeing how you would replicate his abilities. Because from your previous threads, some of your methods are not of my taste, but others (like this build here) have been absolutely astounding!

Thx for the critique and compliments^^

I don't think that Pain is that hard to re-build. Just a few quick thoughts..

Ingredients:
- Locate City Bomb build
- Telekinesis (spell or ring) focused combat
- Simulacrum/Ice Assassin for the "other" Pains
- Foresight + some kind of Telepathy (dip Mindbender?) for the Rinnegan
- Miracle for the mass resurrection (via Domain spell maybe?)
- Counterspell to show how he negates most stuff

Imho Pain is really one of the easier ones to adapt. Maybe the counterspell part needs to be fleshed out to have some reflect options too. But other then that, I don't see much difficulty. Did I miss anything important? (unless you wanted to see all 6 paths of Pain..^^)

I might be misremembering, but I believe none of the two were weaker than the other, it was just that Sakon was the one *usually* doing the walking/fighting/general heavy lifting while Ukon casually slacked off in their shared body and was thus not *used to* physical activity, but was very much capable of doing so. I believe at one point Sakon was damaged enough that Ukon had to switch and "pilot" them....I could ofc be wrong. Can't check it right now, but I will first chance I get

As you said, Sakon is referred as the more active one. The statement can be found in the anime/manga and even on wiki. That's what I based my argument on. Both have the same devastating attacks, but Sakon lacks the power (STR) and endurance (CON) that his brother has.
Theoretically Ukon (in this build) could also grow an entire body temporary to carry Sakon around. It's just not as effective (as in the manga/anime).

____________________

I really like how the build ended up. And imho it could be still seen has high PO and would be still playable at some high optimized tables. (while I barely play at such tables myself. I can count the opportunities at one hand I guess..)

This is why I <3 3.5
Because you can get even the craziest ideas to work somehow. Sure, some are beyond being playable (to strong or to many lvls), but just the fact that you can do it is fascinating for me.

[Dragonsworn]

I think it will be the next build in line, so it wouldn't be such big of a deal to reveal it to you now. I'll PM you.

Thanks for sharing, I have replied to your (admitedly very interesting) suggestion

I gave the combo another thought. Any other build option would end up much weaker. The problems:
- Only as familiar, the GV has scaling HP
- only Dread Necromancers have access to GV as familiar (needs 7lvl of DN)
Other builds would need to rely on "Graft Flesh" to craft a GV and that one would have a static HP. And waiting for Simulacrum (needs 13 lvls of wizard, or DN 13 + Wyrm Wizard 4) would just delay the build even more. Overall a very bad trade off here. Thus the showcased build is imho the sole practical one here.

Of course the option you showcase is the optimal one here, I 'm just saying that if you want to attack a person's body from the inside without being an anime knock-off you can. For instance, a full Dread Necromancer could be regularly using this as an option if they had opted for similar feats/familiars (and I think a BBEG or MBEG pulling such a trick on a party would make for an awesome campaign or its finale)

I don't think that Pain is that hard to re-build. Just a few quick thoughts..

Ingredients:
- Locate City Bomb build
- Telekinesis (spell or ring) focused combat
- Simulacrum/Ice Assassin for the "other" Pains
- Foresight + some kind of Telepathy (dip Mindbender?) for the Rinnegan
- Miracle for the mass resurrection (via Domain spell maybe?)
- Counterspell to show how he negates most stuff

Imho Pain is really one of the easier ones to adapt. Maybe the counterspell part needs to be fleshed out to have some reflect options too. But other then that, I don't see much difficulty. Did I miss anything important?

Well, I think you are oversimplifying him
-Locate City Bomb is an interesting adaptation that I had not thought of in this case, but I was hoping there would be a way to imitate his attraction/repulsion abilities and then scale that somehow up to city-busting proportions.......or is that too much wishful thinking
-Telekinesis is an obvious venue, but has a max weight limit.....can that be alleviated?
-Since the Six Paths of Pain were made out of corpses, I was hoping for a necromantic effect that could create highly combat effective creatures, or better yet allow you to impart abilities of your own on them (like some form of Imbue with Spell Ability) to keep as close to the original as possible
-And of course, the variouw Path abilities. For example, in order:
-Deva Path: already discussed
-Asura Path: a veritable portable, interchangeable and "summonable" armory, would be interesting to see implemented ["summonable" being the thing to look out for (hammerspace?)]
-Human Path: Basically a divination/mind read and necromantic/death effect rolled into one, but would it be possible to have one ability that does both? And if not, how about being able to pull it of in one round/no more than one standard and any quicker (eg swift) action? And if you take into account the scope of intel gained (supposedly the peron's entire life), Mindrape may be necessary
-Animal Path: A bunch of (optimized) summons, though the dog might need some work
-Preta Path: This, to me, is the tricky one. You see, he does not only negate stuff, he absorbs them! And if memory serves right, he could then use the absorbed energy to not only power techniques (jutsus), but also to physically empower/restore himself (Kisame could certainly do that, and I am pretty sure one more could also, though I do not remember who). And while Absorption can take care of that, it is a 9th level spell, and Pein could absorb a person's power by touching them, without them using their abilities (sounds like a Spellthief maybe? But what about creatures with no casting abilities?)
-Naraka Path: Miracle works, but it could also physically restore damage that hadn't necessarily resulted in death (a bunch of healing spells? Might need divine casting for high level ones)

(unless you wanted to see all 6 paths of Pain..^^)

Well duh

As you said, Sakon is referred as the more active one. The statement can be found in the anime/manga and even on wiki. That's what I based my argument on. Both have the same devastating attacks, but Sakon lacks the power (STR) and endurance (CON) that his brother has.
Theoretically Ukon (in this build) could also grow an entire body temporary to carry Sakon around. It's just not as effective (as in the manga/anime).

That's the thing! IF I remember correctly (still had not had the time to check) Ukon was less active but not less strong/durable/powerful than Sakon! Not that the build suffers or the portrayal of the characters is reduced in any meaningful way, just a nitpick

I really like how the build ended up. And imho it could be still seen has high PO and would be still playable at some high optimized tables. (while I barely play at such tables myself. I can count the opportunities at one hand I guess..)

True, excellent work

This is why I <3 3.5
Because you can get even the craziest ideas to work somehow. Sure, some are beyond being playable (to strong or to many lvls), but just the fact that you can do it is fascinating for me.

I know, right?

That's half the reason I adore this edition, the other being verisimilitude [specifically, the ability (imo) to relatively accurately and probably better than any other game out there portray on table/in paper real life workings!]

Thx for the critique and compliments^^

Credit where credit's due