OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Nor does she care. To her, the dwarves are likely 'the status quo'

EDIT:

If someone said I would either be lunched in the face

That is the simplest way to have lunch.

[hamishspence]

Eh, Malcolm isn't saying the world will go on forever. He's saying we always aay "we're going to destroy the world" when we mean "werre going to destroy ourselves".


The billion years is the earth's time scale. I think Malcolm would be perfectly fine accepting that.

He'd probably also say "we are amazingly arrogant about being able to define what constitutes "unable to support life"" - going by his speech about oxygen.



“You think this is the first time such a thing has happened? Don’t you know about oxygen?”
“I know it’s necessary for life.”
“It is now,” Malcolm said. “But oxygen is actually a metabolic poison. It’s a corrosive gas, like fluorine, which is used to etch glass. And when oxygen was first produced as a waste product by certain plant cells—say, around three billion years ago—it created a crisis for all other life on our planet. Those plant cells were polluting the environment with a deadly poison. They were exhaling a lethal gas, and building up its concentration. A planet like Venus has less than one percent oxygen. On earth, the concentration of oxygen was going up rapidly—five, ten, eventually twenty-one percent! Earth had an atmosphere of pure poison! Incompatible with life!”

[Peelee]

He'd probably also say "we are amazingly arrogant about being able to define what constitutes "unable to support life"" - going by his speech about oxygen.

Maybe, but not having any sources of non-oxygen life would hamper him a bit. He was insufferable arrogant but I do agree with him for the most part in that tirade, even if I think some parts of it were just to be contrary to Hammond (like the oxygen bit, for example ).

[Doug Lampert]

Maybe, but not having any sources of non-oxygen life would hamper him a bit.

Eh, there's still plenty of anaerobic life on Earth. Anaerobic bacteria were observed by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek by 1680, which was prior to anyone knowing what oxygen even is.

[HalfTangible]

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It's all in crayon and thus not certain, but I have no reason to doubt the year of slaughter did it for him.

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It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon; could be anything. Might've just been people dying in his name (a massive amount of Dedication, sounds like)

And even if that were not the case, Redcloak could still get TDO's help ascending, like the Elven gods or northern demigods did for their own pantheons; or you could argue that the slaughter to form Gobbotopia helped.

Or hell, maybe TDO will appear to the goblinoids when Redcloak dies and say "oi you lot supreme leader's dead, go kill some humies"

[Fyraltari]

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It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon

Because he wasn't sponsored ; the goblins, having been forsaken by Fenrir-wolf, had no attachment to any particular pantheon ; and he carried a grudge against them all, but had enough godly juice to ascend on his own.

This, to me, honestly sounds like enough reasons given for the comic not to ever explain it further.

[Peelee]

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It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon; could be anything. Might've just been people dying in his name (a massive amount of Dedication, sounds like)

And even if that were not the case, Redcloak could still get TDO's help ascending, like the Elven gods or northern demigods did for their own pantheons; or you could argue that the slaughter to form Gobbotopia helped.

Or hell, maybe TDO will appear to the goblinoids when Redcloak dies and say "oi you lot supreme leader's dead, go kill some humies"

Oh my bad, I misunderstood. Yeah, you got me there.

[Snails]

Eh, there's still plenty of anaerobic life on Earth. Anaerobic bacteria were observed by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek by 1680, which was prior to anyone knowing what oxygen even is.

Yup. We, oxygen-breathing mammals, are just not used to noticing the anaerobic world, unless it intrudes into our canned goods. There could plausibly be more anaerobic life on earth by weight than aerobic, if we tallied all the little beasties hiding in underground rocks safely away from that toxic oxygen us overworlders live in.

[Alex Warlorn]

I notice how Roy conveniently leaves out that if the Snarl gets loose, all their souls get eaten, and everyone being evacuated to the afterlife is about the only SANE solution if Redcloak thinks the eldritch horror of chaos will behave HOW HE PREDICTS it'll behave if he opens its cage!

[Peelee]

I notice how Roy conveniently leaves out that if the Snarl gets loose, all their souls get eaten, and everyone being evacuated to the afterlife is about the only SANE solution if Redcloak thinks the eldritch horror of chaos will behave HOW HE PREDICTS it'll behave if he opens its cage!

Redcloak won't open the cage. The Dark One plans to use the threat of opening the cage on a specific plane to get what he wants. Only TDO could open the cage, and it'd probably react exactly as he predicts, going by what the author has said about it.

[bunsen_h]

The billion years is the earth's time scale. I think Malcolm would be perfectly fine accepting that.

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

[hamishspence]

I notice how Roy conveniently leaves out that if the Snarl gets loose, all their souls get eaten

He probably figures she already knows that and he doesn't need to reiterate it (since Shojo told him, Shojo got it from Soon, and Soon was part of her party):

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

[dancrilis]

Redcloak won't open the cage. The Dark One plans to use the threat of opening the cage on a specific plane to get what he wants. Only TDO could open the cage, and it'd probably react exactly as he predicts, going by what the author has said about it.

If Xykon gets knocked out then Redcloak has a few options (some of them might be as follows):
1. Go against The Plan of the God he worships (and who doesn't talk to him) and give away that god's power to enemy deities.
2. Find a new arcane caster and continue the plan.
3. Destroy the gate so allow the plans backup to kick in and give The Dark One a say in the next world.

2 or 3 seem a safer bet then 1, and with only one gate left 3 may be more likely then 2 - as things stand.

[Peelee]

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

Ah. Well, dudes a mathematician and not a biologist, so that might explain things. You have a doctorate, you know that once you get to calculus then unless you're working in the physical sciences, actual numbers don't really come up anymore.

[Mike Havran]

You know what's funny?

That our heroes are actually pulling a wool over Serini's eyes about the Gods.

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot and the discussion with Thor.

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind

[Fyraltari]

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

You never know, evolution might produce some very heat-loving forms of life.

[bunsen_h]

Yup. We, oxygen-breathing mammals, are just not used to noticing the anaerobic world, unless it intrudes into our canned goods.

Botulinum toxin (AKA Botox) is used for a number of "serious" medical purposes as well as purely cosmetic stuff.

[bunsen_h]

Ah. Well, dudes a mathematician and not a biologist, so that might explain things. You have a doctorate, you know that once you get to calculus then unless you're working in the physical sciences, actual numbers don't really come up anymore.

My wife -- a neurologist -- and I occasionally have light-hearted disagreements regarding the "hard sciences" vs. the "squishy sciences". She particularly likes Jurassic Park because her father is cited in it, by name.

You never know, evolution might produce some very heat-loving forms of life.

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

[hamishspence]

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot and the discussion with Thor.

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

[dancrilis]

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

We could always build a planetary shield over the planet to keep it shaded.

And if we could then something else could evolve and do it also if we all died out.

All in theory.

[Psyren]

You know what's funny?

That our heroes are actually pulling a wool over Serini's eyes about the Gods.

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot and the discussion with Thor.

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

[Peelee]

My wife -- a neurologist -- and I occasionally have light-hearted disagreements regarding the "hard sciences" vs. the "squishy sciences". She particularly likes Jurassic Park because her father is cited in it, by name.

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.
2.) Isn't neurology also a pretty hard science? Or is this a joke in that she deals in squishy things? I'm like 90% sure that's it but I'm no neurologist.

[KorvinStarmast]

2. Find a new arcane caster and continue the plan.

Vaarsuvius
Not sure how to sell the approach to V, though.

We could always build a planetary shield over the planet to keep it shaded.

Crystal Spheres are already within D&D lexicon before 3.x, so Spell-Jammering OoTSworld might work. As I ponder this, I arrive at wouldn't one need to contract out to a deity or a demi god to accomplish that?

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

If I may be pointlessly pedantic here, rituals.

[dancrilis]

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

Possibly not, based on panel 11 and panel 4 - replacing the furniture could take weeks also and the Gods cannot start a follow vote to destroy the world prior to the completion of the current vote (seemingly based on the 'No-backsies' rule panel 4).

Helping Xykon and Redcloak to remove the threat of the Gate from the mortal plane might be both quicker and easier.

[Carl]

The bit about the "spherical dork" gave me a smile. Sunny is so very lovable.

[Fyraltari]

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

Sure, but this isn't going to happen overnight is it? I wouldn't be surprised if evolution and natural selection solved that hurdle.

I would be surprised to learn about it, but that's because, you know... dead.

[pendell]

Okay, diplomacy time. Roy has laid out everything that needed to be said and told Serini the facts as he understands them. All to the good. Now for the next trick: Proving to Serini he is both being truthful and accurate. As I've said repeatedly; she's a rogue. She's not into just believing people's words. How can he prove the truth to her, or at least give her grounds to believe he knows what he's talking about?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mike Havran]

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

Well, completing the ritual does not actually open the rift, so this doesn't prove that gods will act before the Ritual is completed. If the comment is related to TDO using the Gate as a weapon, then it makes the weapon much weaker than assumed. But I believe Heimdall Loki was talking about the last gate being destroyed on the Mortal plane.

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

This also does not give certainty to a claim that the gods will do it.

[dancrilis]

Okay, diplomacy time. Roy has laid out everything that needed to be said and told Serini the facts as he understands them. All to the good. Now for the next trick: Proving to Serini he is both being truthful and accurate. As I've said repeatedly; she's a rogue. She's not into just believing people's words. How can he prove the truth to her, or at least give her grounds to believe he knows what he's talking about?

Plane shift over to talk to Thor would likely be the easiest plan - if Thor will agree to be met and can stand the scrutiny.

[Psyren]

Possibly not, based on panel 11 and panel 4 - replacing the furniture could take weeks also and the Gods cannot start a follow vote to destroy the world prior to the completion of the current vote (seemingly based on the 'No-backsies' rule panel 4).

Helping Xykon and Redcloak to remove the threat of the Gate from the mortal plane might be both quicker and easier.

If the gods get antsy enough, that still might go out the window. Heck, all it might take is for a bodyguard to kill their cleric to nullify the associated vote, if they really need to resolve a stalemate in a hurry.