Homestuck Fandom Refugee. AMA.

[Lucat]

Hello, it’s me, Lucat. I’ve come here to escape from the madhouse that is the Homestuck fandom. AMA.

[Gez]

Hello, it’s me, Lucat. I’ve come here to escape from the madhouse that is the Homestuck fandom. AMA.

There's still a Homestuck fandom?

[Lucat]

There's still a Homestuck fandom?

Yes, it’s alive and kicking, unfortunately. A lot of the active fans joined from 2017 and onwards, due to Undertale and whatnot. I first read it in 2021 but due to the Terraria Calamity Mod, not Undertale.

[Anarchic Fox]

Where's the best place to stop reading?

[Lucat]

Where's the best place to stop reading?

Act 6 Act 6. No, I’m not repeating that for emphasis, it’s literally called that

[Maat Mons]

I kind of wish I hadn't read the epilog. But I liked the whole thing up to that.

[WanderingMist]

Where's the best place to stop reading?

At the end. I haven't read the epilogues or anything past that. And I never got into the weird obsessive fandom side of things that seemed to take basic storytelling techniques as acts of pure genius.

[Draconi Redfir]

what is your opinion on Lord English?

[Gez]

Where's the best place to stop reading?

The first page?

Not gonna lie, I did enjoy Homestuck while it was going on, but part of the appeal was that it was ongoing and that the audience could, to some extent, shape the story, though that was less and less true as time went on. Also there was all the engagement to go along with it, all the live reactions and speculations that were pretty fun usually. Obviously, this part cannot be experienced anymore (especially since the MSPA forums were summarily deleted because of tech problems).

Eventually, the mysteries that were fun to speculate about turned out to just be discarded, in favor of new mysteries and constant scope escalation. Like some sort of narrative equivalent of a speculative bubble. And then the bubble burst and its emptiness was laid bare.

I haven't watched it, but I figure it's like that Lost TV series that was all the rage way back then and ended up with disappointed fans that complained that all the clues turned out to be just red herrings and that there was in fact no plot at all. Apologies to any Lost fan if I got that wrong; it's all second- or third-hand knowledge.

In hindsight, I'd say the first five acts were overall pretty good, but Act 5 is where problems start to appear, it was just not apparent yet that they were problems. But honestly I can't imagine re-reading MSPA knowing that it turns out in the end to just be a colossal waste of time.

[Dragonus45]

There's still a Homestuck fandom?

Funny story, at Momocon last year I was done packing up my supplies (volunteer DM for the D&D section) and was wiped out so I stopped at some couches to charge my phone and just decompress a little and wound up sitting next to about a dozen homestuck cosplayers. Had a blast chatting with them and seeing that there were still new fans coming into it, most were I think high school age.

Anyways funny timing for this thread I was actually rereading homestuck again recently, I'm surprised how well it still holds up up until the 6th act.

Where's the best place to stop reading?

Just go through till the end on the site. The sequel/epilogue Meat/Candy stuff is mostly just an elaborate joke played on the fandom and can and should just be ignored or engaged with on the level of just general fan fiction.

[Draconi Redfir]

The first page?

Not gonna lie, I did enjoy Homestuck while it was going on, but part of the appeal was that it was ongoing and that the audience could, to some extent, shape the story, though that was less and less true as time went on. Also there was all the engagement to go along with it, all the live reactions and speculations that were pretty fun usually. Obviously, this part cannot be experienced anymore (especially since the MSPA forums were summarily deleted because of tech problems).

Eventually, the mysteries that were fun to speculate about turned out to just be discarded, in favor of new mysteries and constant scope escalation. Like some sort of narrative equivalent of a speculative bubble. And then the bubble burst and its emptiness was laid bare.

I haven't watched it, but I figure it's like that Lost TV series that was all the rage way back then and ended up with disappointed fans that complained that all the clues turned out to be just red herrings and that there was in fact no plot at all. Apologies to any Lost fan if I got that wrong; it's all second- or third-hand knowledge.

In hindsight, I'd say the first five acts were overall pretty good, but Act 5 is where problems start to appear, it was just not apparent yet that they were problems. But honestly I can't imagine re-reading MSPA knowing that it turns out in the end to just be a colossal waste of time.

Pretty accurate actually.

The first four acts (Sans intermission) were the most compelling, with the story being about the Kids and the Game they were stuck in, with the Game itself as the primary antagonist, and Jack Noir as just a seccondary antagonist.


By the time the Trolls and act 5 roll around though, everything de-rails something fierce, and by the end of it, the main antagonist is a man nobody has ever met before (And who has not actually done anything to threaten them or warrant being any kind of antagonist), the game itself is all but forgotten about, and Jack Noir who is literally responsible for killing the entire cast of the story at LEAST once, is literally whapped with a newspaper, given a "Bad dog" treatment, and then apparently gets a redemption arc where he starts dating the local painter lady or something idk.

[Lord Raziere]

In hindsight, I'd say the first five acts were overall pretty good, but Act 5 is where problems start to appear, it was just not apparent yet that they were problems. But honestly I can't imagine re-reading MSPA knowing that it turns out in the end to just be a colossal waste of time.

Actually I enjoy rereading Homestuck and have done so a couple of times, technically watching a youtuber reading it for the first time which I count as a third or fourth reread? lost count.

I wouldn't characterize it as a waste of time myself; the finale was pretty good and both epilogues are par for the course in how they turn out. its actually pretty interesting realizing that Homestuck evolved into a commentary on the nature of fandom itself, how franchises evolve and what people do with them. I'm happy to hear the fandom is still alive and well, for the nature of homestuck has a unique relationship with it and wouldn't really be anything without it.

[Dragonus45]

Actually I enjoy rereading Homestuck and have done so a couple of times, technically watching a youtuber reading it for the first time which I count as a third or fourth reread? lost count.

I wouldn't characterize it as a waste of time myself; the finale was pretty good and both epilogues are par for the course in how they turn out. its actually pretty interesting realizing that Homestuck evolved into a commentary on the nature of fandom itself, how franchises evolve and what people do with them. I'm happy to hear the fandom is still alive and well, for the nature of homestuck has a unique relationship with it and wouldn't really be anything without it.

I agree calling it a waste of time is a bit harsh. It still stands up pretty well even if Act 6 was remarkably messy and Hussie was clearly losing control of things on multiple levels. I'm a couple pages into Act 6 right now and the first 5 acts flew by with how fun they still are. I feel sorry for the newer younger fans just recently coming to the story though in a world where the MSPA forums are gone.

[Draconi Redfir]

don't get me wrong, i loved act 5 and the trolls.

i just believe that the story would have been better if they were their own separate thing. two separate, but connected stories rather then one big story.

[Dragonus45]

don't get me wrong, i loved act 5 and the trolls.

i just believe that the story would have been better if they were their own separate thing. two separate, but connected stories rather then one big story.

Strong disagree, I think there is a real reason why the story took off on the wider internet around act 5 specifically and it's 100% the trolls. Well that and a slow but presumably deliberate shift over from the more dense mechanics based humor and story telling of the first 4 acts to a more character driven deal during the troll parts. Also, I'm not sure how you could possibly separate the two even as connected stories with some degree of crossover. It's to much actually the same story the whole time. Kind of like the way the Trolls thought they were two separate teams in two separate games but ultimately were working together the whole time.

[Draconi Redfir]

Strong disagree, I think there is a real reason why the story took off on the wider internet around act 5 specifically and it's 100% the trolls. Well that and a slow but presumably deliberate shift over from the more dense mechanics based humor and story telling of the first 4 acts to a more character driven deal during the troll parts. Also, I'm not sure how you could possibly separate the two even as connected stories with some degree of crossover. It's to much actually the same story the whole time. Kind of like the way the Trolls thought they were two separate teams in two separate games but ultimately were working together the whole time.

The thing is the Troll act kind of shot off because of like the quadrants and romances and shipping stuff, and the admittedly fun lore of their alien world and caste system and the like.

But everything that came before was a completely separate kind of great. Four kids getting stuck in this weird space outside of time, forced to play a game they don't fully understand while uncovering the mysteries of their worlds and roles within it.


What i would have done is cut out everything involving Lord English entirely, as he's just completely unneeded to the plot, and then have the Trolls remain as they were in the first few acts, just voices on the computer, observing from the outside that could act as guidence towards the kids. We don't properly visit the Trolls or learn of their stories or romance dynamics or whatever else. Instead we follow the story of four kids trying to win their game, the main antagonist of the story BEING the game itself.

MAYBE have a section where the Kids find out (through the Trolls or otherwise) that their session is unwinnable, and they need to scratch it and meet up with Jane and her group still. So all of that part still happens, it's just done in a way where Dave and Rose never meet the Trolls in person, and manage to get to the new session without them. Then when John and Co meet Jane and Co, the eight of them work together to solve the remaining mysteries of the Game and eventually win, with Sburb itself remaining as the primary goal and protagonist of the entire story. Throughout all of this, the crew could continue receiving guidance and regular cuts to the Exiles on post-apocalyptic Earth rebuilding civilization, because watching them was some of the best stuff, and i will never forgive their abrupt end like that.

The Troll's initial story could remain mostly the same, perhaps during the three-year timeskip it takes for John and co to reach Jane's session, the Trolls find themselves unable to communicate or observe anymore, and their story resolves around them facing off whatever demon or other entity has wrecked their session and that they're currently hiding from. As much as i loved being right about this "Demon" being Bec Noir, this would ideally be a separate entity entirely (who is still not English) who they need to overcome and deal with. They have a whole plot about fighting this impossible monster in the ruins of a dead session or whatever, and after overcoming all that, MAYBE they can find a way to meet up with the human kids again to be able to escape into the new universe they created, idk. But they still don't take part in solving the Kid's session or fighting off unnecessary tertiary antagonists or the like.

And also Bec Noir remains an opponent exclusively for the Kids and serves as the Active antagonist for them while Sburb is the Passive antagonist. There's no crossing universes or killing the Exiles or whatever else. He just stays in John's session and chases them to Jane's session and they all band together to overcome him as well as complete the game.

The troll's Dancestors like Meenah and co? Yeah they just never come up. We're good without them. Retcon powers also don't exist and it remains a single coherent story, because that was also kind of dumb.

As much as i love the Condence... she probably shouldn't be involved in Jane's session or story at all. Maybe just drop that whole idea or something idk. it just felt weird and tacked on TBH.


Lets not forget that a lot of the plot hooks for Sburb itself, like "play the rain" and Denizens and the like? Completely dropped. entirely forgotten about. All to make room for shipping charts, Vriska doing nothing wrong, quadrants, messed up retcon powers making it even more confusing for newer readers and the like, etc.

[Dragonus45]

The thing is the Troll act kind of shot off because of like the quadrants and romances and shipping stuff, and the admittedly fun lore of their alien world and caste system and the like.

But everything that came before was a completely separate kind of great. Four kids getting stuck in this weird space outside of time, forced to play a game they don't fully understand while uncovering the mysteries of their worlds and roles within it.


What i would have done is cut out everything involving Lord English entirely, as he's just completely unneeded to the plot, and then have the Trolls remain as they were in the first few acts, just voices on the computer, observing from the outside that could act as guidence towards the kids. We don't properly visit the Trolls or learn of their stories or romance dynamics or whatever else. Instead we follow the story of four kids trying to win their game, the main antagonist of the story BEING the game itself.

MAYBE have a section where the Kids find out (through the Trolls or otherwise) that their session is unwinnable, and they need to scratch it and meet up with Jane and her group still. So all of that part still happens, it's just done in a way where Dave and Rose never meet the Trolls in person, and manage to get to the new session without them. Then when John and Co meet Jane and Co, the eight of them work together to solve the remaining mysteries of the Game and eventually win, with Sburb itself remaining as the primary goal and protagonist of the entire story. Throughout all of this, the crew could continue receiving guidance and regular cuts to the Exiles on post-apocalyptic Earth rebuilding civilization, because watching them was some of the best stuff, and i will never forgive their abrupt end like that.

The Troll's initial story could remain mostly the same, perhaps during the three-year timeskip it takes for John and co to reach Jane's session, the Trolls find themselves unable to communicate or observe anymore, and their story resolves around them facing off whatever demon or other entity has wrecked their session and that they're currently hiding from. As much as i loved being right about this "Demon" being Bec Noir, this would ideally be a separate entity entirely (who is still not English) who they need to overcome and deal with. They have a whole plot about fighting this impossible monster in the ruins of a dead session or whatever, and after overcoming all that, MAYBE they can find a way to meet up with the human kids again to be able to escape into the new universe they created, idk. But they still don't take part in solving the Kid's session or fighting off unnecessary tertiary antagonists or the like.

And also Bec Noir remains an opponent exclusively for the Kids and serves as the Active antagonist for them while Sburb is the Passive antagonist. There's no crossing universes or killing the Exiles or whatever else. He just stays in John's session and chases them to Jane's session and they all band together to overcome him as well as complete the game.

The troll's Dancestors like Meenah and co? Yeah they just never come up. We're good without them. Retcon powers also don't exist and it remains a single coherent story, because that was also kind of dumb.

As much as i love the Condence... she probably shouldn't be involved in Jane's session or story at all. Maybe just drop that whole idea or something idk. it just felt weird and tacked on TBH.


Lets not forget that a lot of the plot hooks for Sburb itself, like "play the rain" and Denizens and the like? Completely dropped. entirely forgotten about. All to make room for shipping charts, Vriska doing nothing wrong, quadrants, messed up retcon powers making it even more confusing for newer readers and the like, etc.

I think the issue here is that most of that was actually just irrelevant, outside of the way it forced the kids to change and grow. Sburb was always a fake out because the kids were never really playing Sburb. Their session was far to broken for that and the scene where Rose sets free Japsersprite made that exceptionally clear. Sure that could have continued to be an equally interesting story but it wasn't the story Hussie was writing. He was writing a story that ultimately was meant to point exactly towards the huge twist reveal of the end of Act 5 and Lord English. If anything the real issue is the way that the Pre Scratch kids wound up being almost totally sidelined in favor of the Post Scratch kids who themselves were by and large kinda screwed by the constant pauses from the Hiveswap fiasco's. Plural.

And Vriska did do nothing wrong. At all. It's all very clear on that front.

[Draconi Redfir]

the Kids played Sburb, and that was the fun part, that was the interesting part. that was the story i was invested in. It was fun when they were playing Sburb.


Then it all gets sidelined for alien romances, meta-jokes that ruin the story, and a villain who nobody knows, nobody has any reason to care about, and who actually never did anything even remotely threatening.

it would have been better if it just focused on the game.



But yes, Vriska did nothing wrong. that of course goes without saying.

[Emperor Time]

This takes me back since I was following homestuck from the very beginning including the part where it was suppose to start on April 10th but then was relaunch on the 13th. Sure brings back many memories for me.

[Lucat]

There are a disturbing number of good takes here

[Dragonus45]

There are a disturbing number of good takes here

Homestuck is nothing if not fodder for conversation and takes, both hot and cold.

[WanderingMist]

The first page?

Not gonna lie, I did enjoy Homestuck while it was going on, but part of the appeal was that it was ongoing and that the audience could, to some extent, shape the story, though that was less and less true as time went on. Also there was all the engagement to go along with it, all the live reactions and speculations that were pretty fun usually. Obviously, this part cannot be experienced anymore (especially since the MSPA forums were summarily deleted because of tech problems).

Eventually, the mysteries that were fun to speculate about turned out to just be discarded, in favor of new mysteries and constant scope escalation. Like some sort of narrative equivalent of a speculative bubble. And then the bubble burst and its emptiness was laid bare.

I haven't watched it, but I figure it's like that Lost TV series that was all the rage way back then and ended up with disappointed fans that complained that all the clues turned out to be just red herrings and that there was in fact no plot at all. Apologies to any Lost fan if I got that wrong; it's all second- or third-hand knowledge.

In hindsight, I'd say the first five acts were overall pretty good, but Act 5 is where problems start to appear, it was just not apparent yet that they were problems. But honestly I can't imagine re-reading MSPA knowing that it turns out in the end to just be a colossal waste of time.

I'd say this right here demonstrates a fundamental issue with the weird, obsessive part of the Homestuck fandom. They hubristically believed they were important to the story, but they never were. The sheer amount of suggestions given meant the author was free to take the story wherever he wanted from the beginning. And he always was, given that within the very first few pages he outright ignores the suggestions he chose to use. Speculation is just that. Speculation. Being angry about red herrings misses the entire point of red herrings. The fandom loves to act as though the plot is some great, complex, incomprehensible behemoth but it's fairly straightforward.

I managed to read Homestuck without being aware of its fandom at all until the very end and felt Act 7 was a perfectly suitable ending. Could some things have been done better? Of course. There's no such thing as a perfect story. But in the end, the problem isn't with Homestuck's story. It's with the fans who thought they mattered more than the plot. But they'll never acknowldege their complete irrelevance. To do so would wound their pride. They'll just scream about how the story was ruined because this happened or that didn't happen even though they were so sure about it and how the author clearly didn't know what he was doing because this blatantly foreshadowed thing wasn't foreshadowed at all.

[Lucat]

NGL my problem with the Homestuck fandom is just the sheer amount of pretentious doofuses in it. “Ah but you see you just aren’t intelligent enough to understand my amazing ‘postmodern’ opinions”

[Draconi Redfir]

my only gripe with the fandom is what the fandom did to Trolls.

They took this cool, violent, alien species with a completely different culture and society full of things like caste systems, culling of the weak, no parental supervision, no/few adults on the planet period, being raised by giant animals, a wide diversity of psionic powers and various minor mutations

and they turned it into "What if they were EXACTLY like humans except grey tho?"


And then Hiveswap happened and introduce a whole slew of new Trolls... almost all of whom are just carbon-copies of the existing ones. All the yellows have a "two"-theme going on, all the teals are lawyers, all the indigos are clowns for some reason, all the browns have animal-speaking, etc.

there was SO much promise for variety and interesting stories to tell in this new, interesting to explore culture and species. But nah, just throw that all away and have gray-skinned humans where everyone is exactly the same actually apparently.

[Dragonus45]

I'd say this right here demonstrates a fundamental issue with the weird, obsessive part of the Homestuck fandom. They hubristically believed they were important to the story, but they never were. The sheer amount of suggestions given meant the author was free to take the story wherever he wanted from the beginning. And he always was, given that within the very first few pages he outright ignores the suggestions he chose to use. Speculation is just that. Speculation. Being angry about red herrings misses the entire point of red herrings. The fandom loves to act as though the plot is some great, complex, incomprehensible behemoth but it's fairly straightforward.

I managed to read Homestuck without being aware of its fandom at all until the very end and felt Act 7 was a perfectly suitable ending. Could some things have been done better? Of course. There's no such thing as a perfect story. But in the end, the problem isn't with Homestuck's story. It's with the fans who thought they mattered more than the plot. But they'll never acknowldege their complete irrelevance. To do so would wound their pride. They'll just scream about how the story was ruined because this happened or that didn't happen even though they were so sure about it and how the author clearly didn't know what he was doing because this blatantly foreshadowed thing wasn't foreshadowed at all.

Even when he wasn't using the suggestions it's clear the fandom on the whole had a deep effect on the story mainly through the effect it had on Hussie himself and it's most apparent in the personalities of the Pre Scratch trolls, all of whom were less then kind takes on the fandom, and the Cherub's personalities... which also included some pretty bitter takes on the fandom. To this day I am convinced some of the anticlimactic elements of the Act 7 were deliberately a poke at the fandom as well. Other then John's story turning out to be kind of a tragedy. That was always present I think.

my only gripe with the fandom is what the fandom did to Trolls.

They took this cool, violent, alien species with a completely different culture and society full of things like caste systems, culling of the weak, no parental supervision, no/few adults on the planet period, being raised by giant animals, a wide diversity of psionic powers and various minor mutations

and they turned it into "What if they were EXACTLY like humans except grey tho?"

I think part of that idea was that the culture of trolls was always something warped pressed upon them by dark outside forces. The story of Vriska is entirely the story of how even someone who bought wholesale into that system and desperately wanted to be a paragon of it's virtues was ultimately breaking herself to be that person. Sure there are some inherent differences built in just from the ways trolls and humans aren't the same but they are still people more like us then not, and the ultimate purpose to Karkat's suffering in believing he was doomed to failure by the Alpha timeline was literally paid off by the reveal it was only this version of him that never attained godhood and mighty power that could correct that imbalance.

[Draconi Redfir]

I think part of that idea was that the culture of trolls was always something warped pressed upon them by dark outside forces.

Even so, the resulting culture is still their culture. The "outside forces" didn't hand-craft it from nothing and then just force it upon them, they just added a few drops of hot sauce into the soup every few thousand years to keep things interesting. The Trolls were still the ones building and living in that culture from the very beginning.

[Dragonus45]

Even so, the resulting culture is still their culture. The "outside forces" didn't hand-craft it from nothing and then just force it upon them, they just added a few drops of hot sauce into the soup every few thousand years to keep things interesting. The Trolls were still the ones building and living in that culture from the very beginning.

Doc Scratch literally and purposefully turned their world into a totalitarian hellscape ruled by the Condesce by giving the trolls Gl'bgolyb. He outright admits it. That's a lot more than just "a little hot sauce" and Echidna explicitly wanted Karkat kept alive to be able to undo it. I get it if you think the murder purge trolls were more interesting and wanted that to stay a core part of the plot but overturning that state being the direction the plot went in is pretty clearly a planned arc and not the fans forcing Hussie to dumb them down to just "grey humans"

[Androgeus]

They hubristically believed they were important to the story, but they never were. The sheer amount of suggestions given meant the author was free to take the story wherever he wanted from the beginning. And he always was, given that within the very first few pages he outright ignores the suggestions he chose to use.

Hey, my suggestion that John open his browser and go to mspaintadventures.com was vastly important!

[Draconi Redfir]

by giving the trolls Gl'bgolyb. He outright admits it.

okay but that's ALL he did! that's ALL he did! The only extra bit was having the Handmaid go to a few points in history and cause some strife or whatever.

Everything else was the Trolls! Everything else was them! They were reacting to those changes and adding to them of their own volition!

Think of it like an entire village making a communal soup. Some bring carrots, some bring chicken, some bring broccoli, some bring this that or the other thing, Doc Scratch just brought a pepper and some hot sauce. That doesn't automatically make it "Doc Scratch's culture", 99% of it still everyone else's, he just subtly guided it the direction it needed to go to beat the game. that's literally his role as a First Guardian, he says as much himself.

not the fans forcing Hussie to dumb them down to just "grey humans"

To be fair i was saying the FANS were dumbing down the Trolls as gray humans, not Hussie. A big part of the fandom was creating and roleplaying Fantrolls, and instead of using this big and interesting and cool-to-explore culture they got, a lot of the community just said "umm actually my troll has / is a parent, is an adult on the planet, is super nice and never kills anyone, hates the caste system because reasons, and yadda yadda"


Like at that point you may as well just be making a human that uses the quadrants system, because that's basically what you got.

[Dragonus45]

okay but that's ALL he did! that's ALL he did! The only extra bit was having the Handmaid go to a few points in history and cause some strife or whatever.

Everything else was the Trolls! Everything else was them! They were reacting to those changes and adding to them of their own volition!

Think of it like an entire village making a communal soup. Some bring carrots, some bring chicken, some bring broccoli, some bring this that or the other thing, Doc Scratch just brought a pepper and some hot sauce. That doesn't automatically make it "Doc Scratch's culture", 99% of it still everyone else's, he just subtly guided it the direction it needed to go to beat the game. that's literally his role as a First Guardian, he says as much himself.

I think you underestimate the ability of an omniscient trickster god to use small nudges to create large effect.

To be fair i was saying the FANS were dumbing down the Trolls as gray humans, not Hussie. A big part of the fandom was creating and roleplaying Fantrolls, and instead of using this big and interesting and cool-to-explore culture they got, a lot of the community just said "umm actually my troll has / is a parent, is an adult on the planet, is super nice and never kills anyone, hates the caste system because reasons, and yadda yadda"


Like at that point you may as well just be making a human that uses the quadrants system, because that's basically what you got.

Oh ok, I thought this was about how the Trolls mellowed out post scratch. Yea a lot of fan Trolls suffered from Drizzt syndrome.