My least favorite thing about recent monster books (A small rant)

[Psyren]

We're going around in circles because you're using arguments that defeat your reasons for the change to refute my claims about the change.

"This change is bad, because it denies players the ability to play drow who are actually drow."
"You can always have your DM let you add Sunlight Sensitivity to them. It's not a big deal."
"You could also have had your DM remove Sunlight Sensitivity from them, before."
"That is unreasonable! Asking your DM to make changes is not a guaranteed thing! They had to make this change!"

1) I wasn't responding to your "denies players the ability to play drow who are actually drow" because I consider it nonsensical. Drow/Duergar/Kobolds are still actually Drow/Duergar/Kobolds with or without this drawback. SS isn't somehow inherent to the very fiber of their being, it's at best a cultural implication that doesn't need to be there if your character isn't from that culture.

2) It has nothing to do with DM changes being guaranteed or not. They are changing the default for their published game. Whatever your DM decides or doesn't decide to do has nothing to do with the default game.

This isn't about "moving away from the old drow;" they are keeping sunlight sensitivity on the NPC entries.

Monster NPCs are not PCs.

Frankly, I'm not sure why drow are even being kept at all, at this rate, though. What makes a drow different from a high elf that it's important to keep drow as a distinct subrace? It's mostly a cultural thing, and all the culture is being stripped away.

I'd suggest waiting until they actually reprint the drow before you ask this question.

Until then - do you think Duergar and Dwarves are identical after this change?

[Telok]

Frankly, I'm not sure why drow are even being kept at all, at this rate, though. What makes a drow different from a high elf that it's important to keep drow as a distinct subrace? It's mostly a cultural thing, and all the culture is being stripped away.

Well they are/were supposed to be (originally) a sort of photo-negative of the PC elf with mid/high level PC style gear that PCs couldn't permanently loot or sell. Basically an early era level appropriate encounter with a wealth-by-level hack from before level appropriate & wbl were codified in the game.

But still, could have been solved with a note about options instead of the typical thing where players get a weaker version of something all npcs of that race/class get. Always sad to hear "it can't be done" when its actually "can't be bothered to".

[Psyren]

Always sad to hear "it can't be done" when its actually "can't be bothered to".

It's actually "We don't want to, and we have a good reason to not want to."

[GooeyChewie]

That's exactly the point, WotC is telling you that PC Drow do not have to have "spent their whole lives underground in darkness." They're trying to get you to let go of that misconception.

Instead they are telling us that PC Drow cannot have spent their whole lives underground in darkness. They're trading one misconception for another. If they had presented sunlight sensitivity as an option, then they could have gotten rid of the misconceptions.

Even commenting that "most members of certain races" have a physiological drawback is likely a bridge too far for them. Are there Drow and Duergar who lived underground all their lives and therefore may have developed sunlight sensitivity? Sure, they exist. Are they the majority of Drow and Duergar in the setting, or even the multiverse? They're basically saying "we'd like that to be up to your DM to determine, not us." And that's fine.

Most Drow and Duergar (and indeed any race) are NPCs, which mean most Drow and Duergar do have Sunlight Sensitivity. A sidebar acknowledging that fact would not make WotC cross any bridges they aren't already crossing. And they aren't saying that they'd like the DM to determine whether these races have Sunlight Sensitivity. By not presenting the option, they're giving their tacit disapproval of allowing these races to have Sunlight Sensitivity. If they really wanted DMs to make that determination, they would have presented both options and told the DM they could choose for themselves.

I've answered "why did they make the change/why are they moving away from old drow" multiple times at this point. I'm not sure how many other ways I can explain it.

I get why "the DM could house-rule away Sunlight Sensitivity" was not sufficient for representing Drow and Duergar who are not adversely affected by sunlight. What I don't get is why anyone would agree with that point and then argue that "the DM could house-rule in Sunlight Sensitivity" is sufficient for representing Drow and Duergar who are adversely affected by sunlight.

1) I wasn't responding to your "denies players the ability to play drow who are actually drow" because I consider it nonsensical. Drow/Duergar/Kobolds are still actually Drow/Duergar/Kobolds with or without this drawback. SS isn't somehow inherent to the very fiber of their being, it's at best a cultural implication that doesn't need to be there if your character isn't from that culture.

And if I want to play a Duergar who is from a culture that lives deep underground and is subject to Sunlight Sensitivity? Why do all PC Duergar have to be surface-dwellers who have overcome Sunlight Sensitivity?

2) It has nothing to do with DM changes being guaranteed or not. They are changing the default for their published game. Whatever your DM decides or doesn't decide to do has nothing to do with the default game.

On the contrary, what any given DM decides or does not decide is very much influenced by the default game. Presenting an optional rule can encourage an DM to accept something that they would not house rule themselves.

Monster NPCs are not PCs.

Yes, that's the problem created by having different rules for the same race depending on whether they are NPCs or PCs. You end up with NPC Drow as one race and PC Drow as theoretically the same race but functionally a different race.

It's actually "We don't want to, and we have a good reason to not want to."

They had good reason to remove Sunlight Sensitivity as the default. I don't believe they actually had good reason not to have a sidebar presenting an optional rule to add it back in. In fact, I would argue that failing to provide such a sidebar works against some of their original reasons for removing it in the first place.

[Psyren]

Instead they are telling us that PC Drow cannot have spent their whole lives underground in darkness. They're trading one misconception for another. If they had presented sunlight sensitivity as an option, then they could have gotten rid of the misconceptions.

Except spending your life underground is no guarantee that you get sunlight sensitivity either. A bunch of Beholders and Dragons and other things live in the Underdark too and none of them have it. If it's going to be an inconsistent attribute anyway, I'd rather it be inconsistent in the PCs' favor.

Most Drow and Duergar (and indeed any race) are NPCs, which mean most Drow and Duergar do have Sunlight Sensitivity.

Except the statblocks you see for antagonists are not the majority of NPCs. Most Drow in a given setting (let alone the multiverse) are not Inquisitors or Arachnomancers or House Captains or Matron Mothers - there are Drow commoners and craftspeople and artists etc etc. Those would be represented by the generic statblocks in the MM, none of which have LS unless the DM chooses for that to be the case. At best you can say that most Drow Matron Mothers may have spent their lives in the Underdark, which makes sense because Matron Mothers come from one highly specific Drow culture. PCs don't have to, nor do non-antagonist NPCs.

Hell, you could even conclude that SS comes not merely from being down there, but from choosing to worship evil Underdark deities like Lolth, Duerra, Urdlen and Ilsensine. That would square the circle neatly.

I get why "the DM could house-rule away Sunlight Sensitivity" was not sufficient for representing Drow and Duergar who are not adversely affected by sunlight. What I don't get is why anyone would agree with that point and then argue that "the DM could house-rule in Sunlight Sensitivity" is sufficient for representing Drow and Duergar who are adversely affected by sunlight.

Because the latter imposes a sanctioned cultural limitation on PCs made from those races, which is what WotC no longer wants to do. It's that simple.

And if I want to play a Duergar who is from a culture that lives deep underground and is subject to Sunlight Sensitivity?

Then talk to your DM and make one. Why should WotC's game beholden to your one specific desired character concept?

They had good reason to remove Sunlight Sensitivity as the default. I don't believe they actually had good reason not to have a sidebar presenting an optional rule to add it back in. In fact, I would argue that failing to provide such a sidebar works against some of their original reasons for removing it in the first place.

And I think providing that sidebar would undermine their stated reasons for removing it, so I guess we're at an impasse there.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Fun fact. The sunlight sensitivity makes no sense for Drow anyway. There's not a single Drow Culture I know of that started underground or evolved underground. To look at the big settings.

Forgotten Realms: Drow started on the surface. In fact, they were there (As were Avariel and Sea Elves) long before Moon and Sun Elves existed on Toril. They had a massive civilization on the coast and lived in the light without any issues what so ever. They ended up underground at Lolth's direction after the Moon, Sun and Wood elves cast the spell that ripped Faerun apart and formed Evermeet. So for a HUGE swath of time on Forgotten Realms they weren't even in a place to develop sensitivity to the sun.

Eberron: They live on the surface, always have, unless you're saying heavy trees can impart sunlight sensitivity it made no sense on them.

Exandria: The main drow culture are LIGHT worshippers who don't live underground...

I could go on. The point is. The entirety of the "Drow live underground" is a Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms thing only. The Forgotten Realms didn't start underground. Drow never had sunlight sensitivity in past editions, they just lost some of their OP abilities if they stayed on the surface.

All in all, the argument seems to be that this weakness is somehow integral to them as a race when it doesn't belong anywhere.

[GooeyChewie]

Then talk to your DM and make one. Why should WotC's game beholden to your one specific desired character concept?

I think you misunderstand. I'm am not advocating that WotC should require all Drow and Duergar PCs to have Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm advocating that WotC should support both the concept of a Drow or Duergar who has Sunlight Sensitivity and the concept of a Drow or Duergar who lacks that trait. They started off all these changes with the stated goal of broadening the types of characters we’re likely to see at the game table, so to be consistent with this goal, they should support multiple options. As far as I can tell, you are the one arguing that WotC's game should be beholden to supporting one specific desired character concept by insisting that they should not even mention the possibility of PCs having this trait.

As for "talk to your DM and make one," that's not a valid argument for WotC not supporting something. If it were a valid argument, then one could simply argue that you could talk to your DM and make a Drow or Duergar without Sunlight Sensitivity, so there's no reason to WotC to remove that trait (or make any changes whatsoever).

[Psyren]

All in all, the argument seems to be that this weakness is somehow integral to them as a race when it doesn't belong anywhere.

Agreed.

I could see Lolth (and Duerra/Urdlen) inflicting it on their followers to keep them insular/easily manipulated and stoke their fear/hatred of the surface. THAT would be a cultural rationale for the PC/evil NPC SS divide that I could easily get behind.

I think you misunderstand. I'm am not advocating that WotC should require all Drow and Duergar PCs to have Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm advocating that WotC should support both the concept of a Drow or Duergar who has Sunlight Sensitivity and the concept of a Drow or Duergar who lacks that trait. They started off all these changes with the stated goal of broadening the types of characters we’re likely to see at the game table, so to be consistent with this goal, they should support multiple options. As far as I can tell, you are the one arguing that WotC's game should be beholden to supporting one specific desired character concept by insisting that they should not even mention the possibility of PCs having this trait.

Because "Drow PCs could have this trait" just perpetuates the very thing they're trying to get away from, i.e. an assumed culture for specific PC races (ones that have been historically coded evil no less) but not others. Why aren't you advocating for Eladrin to have that trait? Or Humans? Or Halflings? Should every race get a sidebar like the one you're proposing then?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I'm advocating that WotC should support both the concept of a Drow or Duergar who has Sunlight Sensitivity and the concept of a Drow or Duergar who lacks that trait.

But why? It doesn't belong, it doesn't apply to the multiverse as a whole, it never has. You can't find an official D&D setting where Light Sensitivity actually fits as part of the lore.

Exandria: Light worshiping surface elves, no Light Sensitivity.

Oerth: Generic Underdark description, nothing about Light Sensitivity.

Forgotten Realms: They started on the surface and went underground due to the actions of the other elves, not their doing, but even that aside, in 1360 DR Ellistrae cured their light weakness.

Ravinica, Theros, Krynn: Don't have Drow.

The feature has no historical basis, no lore basis, no reason to be there at all, it was a mechanics choice and nothing more.

As for "talk to your DM and make one," that's not a valid argument for WotC not supporting something. If it were a valid argument, then one could simply argue that you could talk to your DM and make a Drow or Duergar without Sunlight Sensitivity, so there's no reason to WotC to remove that trait (or make any changes whatsoever).

The flaw there is that you're not arguing the point being made. The argument is "WotC has the right to publish the setting the way THEY want it presented and nothing stops an individual DM from making changes."

I'm curious. Did you argue in 2004 when Eberron launched and completely re-did Drow? Or earlier in 1991 when Darksun made EVERY race different? There's no issue here. WotC has the right to present the product the way they want. And yes, you can spin the "DM can change it" both ways, but you know what that leaves? It leaves it applying both ways. If you're fine saying people who didn't like the earlier Race set ups could just change it at their table, then you have no business complaining now that they changed it. No matter what, the argument is "If you don't like the official layout you can alter it for your group."

[Telok]

Because "Drow PCs could have this trait" just perpetuates the very thing they're trying to get away from, i.e. an assumed culture for specific PC races (ones that have been historically coded evil no less) but not others. Why aren't you advocating for Eladrin to have that trait? Or Humans? Or Halflings? Should every race get a sidebar like the one you're proposing then?

Ah, so you're saying that in order to transition the drow species away from their default society in the default setting that all PC drow characters should not be presented as having sun sensitivity because drow in non-default societies or non-default settings might not be intended to have it. Well if you did it across all drow, PC & NPC, with a note or sidebar that said something about the societies living mainly underground having sun sensitivity, then thats fine. Change all your entries to reflect that the trait is a result of habituation, magic radiation, or something that isn't inherent in the species. That would make sense.

Funny tho, can't see wotc going through all that work. I feel like they'd just strip sun sensitivity and a couple other things like spells or darkvision off PCs to bring them to baseline PC species while they leave all the NPCs alone. Making the NPCs right for the default society in the default setting and still wrong for everything else, but the PC drow wrong for the default setting even if they're easier to stick in other settings.

Honestly don't really care about drow in particular. Its just another point in the pattern of telling people they can play a race/species/class, then giving them a version that doesn't match any of the NPCs of that race/species/class and is lacking several distinctive features or just an outright nerf.

[Psyren]

The flaw there is that you're not arguing the point being made. The argument is "WotC has the right to publish the setting the way THEY want it presented and nothing stops an individual DM from making changes."

I'm curious. Did you argue in 2004 when Eberron launched and completely re-did Drow? Or earlier in 1991 when Darksun made EVERY race different? There's no issue here. WotC has the right to present the product the way they want. And yes, you can spin the "DM can change it" both ways, but you know what that leaves? It leaves it applying both ways. If you're fine saying people who didn't like the earlier Race set ups could just change it at their table, then you have no business complaining now that they changed it. No matter what, the argument is "If you don't like the official layout you can alter it for your group."

Not only that, but they clearly articulated why they're changing the presented product, and that rationale is not compatible with a milquetoast "if you like the old reductive approach, here's an official sidebar showing we'd be okay reinstating it."

Change all your entries to reflect that the trait is a result of habituation, magic radiation, or something that isn't inherent in the species. That would make sense.

Funny tho, can't see wotc going through all that work. I feel like they'd just strip sun sensitivity and a couple other things like spells or darkvision off PCs to bring them to baseline PC species while they leave all the NPCs alone. Making the NPCs right for the default society in the default setting and still wrong for everything else, but the PC drow wrong for the default setting even if they're easier to stick in other settings.

They did that.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Ah, so you're saying that in order to transition the drow species away from their default society in the default setting that all PC drow characters should not be presented as having sun sensitivity because drow in non-default societies or non-default settings might not be intended to have it.

Default setting Drow don't have that. Just went over every official published setting. The only one that MIGHT have Drow with Light Sensitivity is Greyhawk, which actually isn't the default setting anymore. Every other official Campaign setting either does not have Light Sensitive Drow in their lore, or doesn't have Drow at all.

[Telok]

They did that.

Maybe I'm missing something but that's just talking about changes to the PH & such? Not actually errata & future releases removing stuff from drow or yuan-ti to match the PC versions, not errating the mino & centaur entries to be medium like PC ones, no taking pack tactics away from all npc kobolds because PC kobolds don't get it. That sort of thing. So still left with the pattern "you can play this race or class, but you can't have as good of stuff as the npcs" from what I saw.

[Unoriginal]

Fun fact. The sunlight sensitivity makes no sense for Drow anyway. There's not a single Drow Culture I know of that started underground or evolved underground.

No D&D being evolved.

To look at the big settings. [...]
Exandria

I'd dispute categorizing Exandria as one of the "big settings", but probably not the right thread for it.

Exandria: Light worshiping surface elves, no Light Sensitivity.

Exandria's dark elves are a spent-centuries-underground-species and Light Sensitive. The ones who worship the Luxon do so in supernaturally obscured surface cities, except on their holy days where they deliberately expose themselves to hindering level of light.

[GooeyChewie]

Because "Drow PCs could have this trait" just perpetuates the very thing they're trying to get away from, i.e. an assumed culture for specific PC races (ones that have been historically coded evil no less) but not others. Why aren't you advocating for Eladrin to have that trait? Or Humans? Or Halflings? Should every race get a sidebar like the one you're proposing then?

Honestly, if WotC made it a Character Creation rule rather than a sidebar which applies to individual races, I'd be okay with that. They'd probably need to include some form of carrot to get players to actually consider taking it. Darkvision (or an upgrade to existing Darkvision) would make thematic sense. Which, that brings me to a question. If a trait which represents being specially adapted to underground living assumes a culture, why aren't you advocating for Drow, Duergar and Deep Gnomes to lose Superior Darkvision?

But why? It doesn't belong, it doesn't apply to the multiverse as a whole, it never has. You can't find an official D&D setting where Light Sensitivity actually fits as part of the lore.

Drow have Sunlight Sensitivity in the 5e PHB and the 5e Monster Manual. I'm not sure how much more official you can get than that. If you are arguing that WotC should never have given them Sunlight Sensitivity in 5e, I think you could make a decent case. But if you're arguing that there's no evidence that they do have Sunlight Sensitivity in 5e, not so much.

The flaw there is that you're not arguing the point being made. The argument is "WotC has the right to publish the setting the way THEY want it presented and nothing stops an individual DM from making changes."

You've got two arguments there, and I was responding to one of them. Specifically, I was arguing the "nothing stops an individual DM from making changes" argument. Specifically, I argued that while it's true that nothing stops an individual DM from making changes, that fact does not mean WotC should not present options.

While I wasn't responding to "WotC has the right to publish the setting the way THEY want it presented," I can respond to it now. It's true that WotC has the right to publish the setting the way they it presented. But that fact does not mean that every decision WotC makes is automatically a good decision, or even consistent with their stated goals. Arguing that they have the right not to give players the option to choose between having Sunlight Sensitivity or not is not the same thing as arguing that they should not give players that option.

I'm curious. Did you argue in 2004 when Eberron launched and completely re-did Drow? Or earlier in 1991 when Darksun made EVERY race different? There's no issue here. WotC has the right to present the product the way they want.

I wasn't around at those times. But it sounds like you're talking about the introduction of new settings, which is a very appropriate time to introduce variations of races which work differently from the standard ones found in the PHB and/or Monster Manual. That's part of the point of introducing a new setting in the first place.

And yes, you can spin the "DM can change it" both ways, but you know what that leaves? It leaves it applying both ways. If you're fine saying people who didn't like the earlier Race set ups could just change it at their table, then you have no business complaining now that they changed it. No matter what, the argument is "If you don't like the official layout you can alter it for your group."

That's exactly my point. If you're fine saying people who want the option to choose between having Sunlight Sensitivity or not can just change it, then you have no business saying they needed to print a version without Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm not fine with saying people who didn't like the earlier versions of Drow and Duergar can just change it. "You can just change it" isn't a good excuse for bad rules.

Not only that, but they clearly articulated why they're changing the presented product, and that rationale is not compatible with a milquetoast "if you like the old reductive approach, here's an official sidebar showing we'd be okay reinstating it."

1. It's not "milquetoast" to provide players with additional options.
2. It's not reductive to provide players with additional options.
3. It wouldn't "reinstate" anything. Other Drow/Duergar have still have Sunlight Sensitivity, so it was never "uninstated." It would simply let players know that Drow are not one monolithic culture and that they can play Drow from different cultures.

[Witty Username]

Appeal to the default setting means that drow should get magic resistance and be blinded by bright light, not just sunlight.
And I would need to check my stuff but I think even that was a change from the default setting to something else.

But that is the nature of D&D, the game changes, and the settings change with them.

[Psyren]

Maybe I'm missing something but that's just talking about changes to the PH & such? Not actually errata & future releases removing stuff from drow or yuan-ti to match the PC versions, not errating the mino & centaur entries to be medium like PC ones, no taking pack tactics away from all npc kobolds because PC kobolds don't get it. That sort of thing. So still left with the pattern "you can play this race or class, but you can't have as good of stuff as the npcs" from what I saw.

1) You're characterizing sunlight sensitivity as "good stuff?" You know it's a drawback right?
2) I was referring to the clarified lore updates in that article, which specify that all Drow are united, not by worship of Lolth, but by an ancestral connection to the Underdark. That is why they have Superior Darkvision without needing to have Sunlight Sensitivity. (And see second response below.)

Honestly, if WotC made it a Character Creation rule rather than a sidebar which applies to individual races, I'd be okay with that. They'd probably need to include some form of carrot to get players to actually consider taking it. Darkvision (or an upgrade to existing Darkvision) would make thematic sense. Which, that brings me to a question. If a trait which represents being specially adapted to underground living assumes a culture, why aren't you advocating for Drow, Duergar and Deep Gnomes to lose Superior Darkvision?

See #2 above. Their superior darkvision does not come from "being specially adapted to underground living." It comes from an ancestral connection to a magical location. It is metaphysical, not just genetic/biological, and therefore is not something they "adapt out of."

1. It's not "milquetoast" to provide players with additional options.
2. It's not reductive to provide players with additional options.
3. It wouldn't "reinstate" anything. Other Drow/Duergar have still have Sunlight Sensitivity, so it was never "uninstated." It would simply let players know that Drow are not one monolithic culture and that they can play Drow from different cultures.

1. It is when your goal is to distance PCs of those races from outdated assumptions.
2. It is when your goal is to distance PCs of those races from outdated assumptions.
3. The only Drow that still have it in the new material are explicitly worshipers of Lolth. You are assuming the drawback is physiological or cultural when the evidence suggests it is divine/supernatural in origin, a common affliction her cultists share. Note too that all of them have powers PCs cannot access - their sunlight sensitivity can very easily be viewed as the price they pay for those abilities.

[JackPhoenix]

2) I was referring to the clarified lore updates in that article, which specify that all Drow are united, not by worship of Lolth, but by an ancestral connection to the Underdark. That is why they have Superior Darkvision without needing to have Sunlight Sensitivity. (And see second response below.)

By the same token, that mean Lolth is irrelevant to them having Sunlight Sensitivity or not. If there's a reason to have SS, "ancestral connection to the Underdark" is a pretty good reason.

It's also pile of bovine manure, because Eberron drow still have Sunlight Sensitivity (or light blindness in 3.5) despite having absolutely nothing to do with Underdark (or Lolth).

See #2 above. Their superior darkvision does not come from "being specially adapted to underground living." It comes from an ancestral connection to a magical location. It is metaphysical, not just genetic/biological, and therefore is not something they "adapt out of."

But Sunlight Sensitivity, according to you, does NOT come from the same ancestral connection to a magical location, and is therefore something they CAN adapt out of? Hello, consistency.

3. The only Drow that still have it in the new material are explicitly worshipers of Lolth. You are assuming the drawback is physiological or cultural when the evidence suggests it is divine/supernatural in origin, a common affliction her cultists share. Note too that all of them have powers PCs cannot access - their sunlight sensitivity can very easily be viewed as the price they pay for those abilities.

Do you have any source indicating that EVERY SINGLE DROW NPC EVER PUBLISHED is a Lolth worshipper and nothing else? Because I can easily prove you wrong on that: Jarlaxle and Bregan D'aerthe members still have Sunlight Sensitivity, despite not being Lolth worshippers.

[Psyren]

By the same token, that mean Lolth is irrelevant to them having Sunlight Sensitivity or not. If there's a reason to have SS, "ancestral connection to the Underdark" is a pretty good reason.

Not if the goal is to decouple SS from PC races as a whole, which they are clearly doing.

It's also pile of bovine manure, because Eberron drow still have Sunlight Sensitivity (or light blindness in 3.5) despite having absolutely nothing to do with Underdark (or Lolth).

1) 3.5 is irrelevant to this forum, it's a different edition of the game.
2) You have Eberron Drow NPC statblocks from after the MotM changes? Where are those located?

Do you have any source indicating that EVERY SINGLE DROW NPC EVER PUBLISHED is a Lolth worshipper and nothing else? Because I can easily prove you wrong on that: Jarlaxle and Bregan D'aerthe members still have Sunlight Sensitivity, despite not being Lolth worshippers.

As above - do you have post-MotM statblocks for these NPCs? Pointing to statblocks for them from before the changes is just as irrelevant as pointing to 3.5, unless you think WotC has a time machine lying around.

[JackPhoenix]

Not if the goal is to decouple SS from PC races as a whole, which they are clearly doing.

Well, for once I agree with you. They are ruining drow by removing anything that made them unique and interesting instead of just "elf subrace No. who cares"

[Psyren]

Well, for once I agree with you. They are ruining drow by removing anything that made them unique and interesting instead of just "elf subrace No. who cares"

You need SS for a race to be interesting? I'm especially glad the designers aren't taking cues from that line of thinking.

[JackPhoenix]

You need SS for a race to be interesting? I'm especially glad the designers aren't taking cues from that line of thinking.

Elven races are a dime a dozen. SS made drow actually stand out from a worldbuilder's perspective (i.e. not something WotC cares about, as they'd rather have everyone buy their increasingly bland and boring products), even if you don't use the default lore for them. I'm saddened to see the designers removing flavor, uniqueness and meaningful differences, ironically for the stated goal of promoting "diversity".

[Telok]

1) You're characterizing sunlight sensitivity as "good stuff?" You know it's a drawback right?

Yes, I do think its a good thing to have non-human species with traits that push them further away from the 'human with rubber ears' trope.

And, repeating myself here again, if they go through and errata & reissue books with all the sun sensitivity removed (except apparently in some settings where its some sort of divine imposed screw up), then that's fine. I just don't think they'll do that much work simply to be consistent, think probably they'll cut some other stuff from the PC version to get it closer to the baseline power level. And, repeating myself here again, for me its more about the pattern of making PC stuff different & usually weaker from NPC stuff for "balance", trending towards making PCs more complicated yet nerfed versions on their NPC counterparts.

Are the characters winning fights because they're better or smarter than the opposition, or because its a level appropriate encounter against a weaker force designed for them to win it?

[Psyren]

Again, I'd suggest actually waiting for them to reprint Elves and Drow before concluding they have no "meaningful differences" from each other.

From the reprints I have seen (e.g. Eladrin, Deep Gnomes and Duergar) they are substantially different from regular elves, gnomes and dwarves even without SS. (And without fixed ASIs for that matter.)

[Pixel_Kitsune]

No D&D being evolved.

Using the term generically, not literal scientific evolution. The original statement meant none of the Drow started or came from a place of light sensitivity.

I'd dispute categorizing Exandria as one of the "big settings", but probably not the right thread for it.

Exandria's dark elves are a spent-centuries-underground-species and Light Sensitive. The ones who worship the Luxon do so in supernaturally obscured surface cities, except on their holy days where they deliberately expose themselves to hindering level of light.

Went back and read, you are correct, my mistake. Well. That makes now a single official D&D world with Light Sensitive Drow. I'd be curious if they're actually meant to be light sensitive or if Matt was just being compatible with official lore there, but that's not important.

Happy to admit my error there, though that still stands that Forgotten Realms and Eberron don't have Light Sensitive Drow in lore. If we want to talk about which settings are big (It's an argument that's valid, i said Big as in official, but you're right to point out Exandria, Ravinica, Theros, etc are not Big the way Forgotten Realms, Eberron or Ravenloft are).

Drow have Sunlight Sensitivity in the 5e PHB and the 5e Monster Manual. I'm not sure how much more official you can get than that. If you are arguing that WotC should never have given them Sunlight Sensitivity in 5e, I think you could make a decent case. But if you're arguing that there's no evidence that they do have Sunlight Sensitivity in 5e, not so much.

My point was that Lore in almost every setting specifically doesn't have Sunlight sensitivity. It was added from a mechanic viewpoint in the core book. I'm not arguing it "Existed" in 5e. I'm arguing that prior to 5e it did not exist in Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc, etc and that there was nothing in the lore that explained them gaining it in 5e, So, simple enough, they are not taking away anything or altering the "Default" setting by changing it.

You've got two arguments there, and I was responding to one of them. Specifically, I was arguing the "nothing stops an individual DM from making changes" argument. Specifically, I argued that while it's true that nothing stops an individual DM from making changes, that fact does not mean WotC should not present options.

No one said WotC should not present options. The argument is WotC has no fault in presenting the standard they want to present.

While I wasn't responding to "WotC has the right to publish the setting the way THEY want it presented," I can respond to it now. It's true that WotC has the right to publish the setting the way they it presented. But that fact does not mean that every decision WotC makes is automatically a good decision, or even consistent with their stated goals. Arguing that they have the right not to give players the option to choose between having Sunlight Sensitivity or not is not the same thing as arguing that they should not give players that option.

You know, you can put that argument on everything and spin it backwards. Were you making this argument when the PHB first launched and saying that WotC should give the option to not have Sunlight sensitivity? I'm going to guess no, but feel free to provide the post link. Also, no one said "Every decision WotC makes is automatically good." Regardless of what I think of this particular issue WotC has definitely done things I didn't think were smart or right. But at that point you're appealing to opinion and that means the conversation is done since it's just a subjective thing we disagree on.

I wasn't around at those times. But it sounds like you're talking about the introduction of new settings, which is a very appropriate time to introduce variations of races which work differently from the standard ones found in the PHB and/or Monster Manual. That's part of the point of introducing a new setting in the first place.

The point is that Eberron changed the whole dynamic and WotC tried to spearhead it as their official setting (Because it was written FOR 3.5 instead of requiring adjustments like all the others). But we can stick to Forgotten Realms since you seem to want to go with "Default" But again, Forgotten Realms Drow light weakness was very different from the 5e PHB and it has been canonically removed.

That's exactly my point. If you're fine saying people who want the option to choose between having Sunlight Sensitivity or not can just change it, then you have no business saying they needed to print a version without Sunlight Sensitivity. I'm not fine with saying people who didn't like the earlier versions of Drow and Duergar can just change it. "You can just change it" isn't a good excuse for bad rules.

Did I say they needed to print it? I said they have every right to, it's their call and if it's fair to tell other people to change it then there's no reason you can't go the same route. You seem very keen to make this an argument where we're pushing some extreme so you can easily fight it. That's not the case.

1. It's not "milquetoast" to provide players with additional options.
2. It's not reductive to provide players with additional options.
3. It wouldn't "reinstate" anything. Other Drow/Duergar have still have Sunlight Sensitivity, so it was never "uninstated." It would simply let players know that Drow are not one monolithic culture and that they can play Drow from different cultures.

1: It is milquetoast to make a change because of a specifically stated reason that clearly wants certain things removed and then put them in a sidebar saying it's really okay. To put it in a more black and white perspective, They changed the idea that all X are inherently Y Alignment. It would be Milquetoast to make that change, citing that they feel it is problematic, and then put a sidebar in saying "But it's still okay if you want to do it." Not contesting something is not the same as allowing it. And ultimately, that's what WotC is doing. They are flat out saying they don't want Light Sensitivity in their Drow PCs, they won't stop individual Tables from using it, but they don't want it, so no, they're not going to specifically allow it.

2: It's reductive to make a change for a stated reason and then double back on it to allow the old thing they claim they changed for a specific reason.

3: Please explain, in detail, how Drow PCs not having a specific hindrance that some NPC blocks have is forcing them to be one monolithic culture or suggest they can't play Drow from other cultures. I'll wait. While you're at it, I'd like you to explain why I don't have an option to have a Hafling without Luck, or a Dwarf without Stonecunning. You're arguing about this one little thing while ignoring that if you apply the logic you're using to the PHB then it's something that's been present forever.

Elven races are a dime a dozen. SS made drow actually stand out from a worldbuilder's perspective (i.e. not something WotC cares about, as they'd rather have everyone buy their increasingly bland and boring products), even if you don't use the default lore for them. I'm saddened to see the designers removing flavor, uniqueness and meaningful differences, ironically for the stated goal of promoting "diversity".

Personal opinion =/= Fact. I personally found what made Drow unique was the innate magical abilities, the cosmetics and things like the gender dimorphism. The fact that bright light hurt them was something I found obnoxious and immediately ret-conned out of my table. I'm genuinely curious how a specific weakness makes them unique but access to certain magics, weapons, their entire culture, their biological differences from other elves, none of that makes them unique.

[Segev]

1) I wasn't responding to your "denies players the ability to play drow who are actually drow" because I consider it nonsensical. Drow/Duergar/Kobolds are still actually Drow/Duergar/Kobolds with or without this drawback. SS isn't somehow inherent to the very fiber of their being, it's at best a cultural implication that doesn't need to be there if your character isn't from that culture.

Okay, what is the "fiber of their being?" Just how different can they be from the NPC versions before people are allowed to question whether they're actually the same race/species/creature/whatever or not?

2) It has nothing to do with DM changes being guaranteed or not. They are changing the default for their published game. Whatever your DM decides or doesn't decide to do has nothing to do with the default game.

And you've said the change is justified because it makes things better, and doesn't inhibit the ability to add the missing trait in to the PCs. My counterargument is that your claim about not inhibiting adding the missing trait in can be said equally about removing said trait, therefore nullifying your assertion that the change is justified.

[Psyren]

Okay, what is the "fiber of their being?" Just how different can they be from the NPC versions before people are allowed to question whether they're actually the same race/species/creature/whatever or not?

Are they both called "Drow" in the official material? Then they are probably both Drow. This doesn't seem particularly complicated to me.

As for the Sunlight Sensitivity trait specifically, I provided a non-biology justification as to why antagonistic Lolth-cult Drow might still have it when PC Drow (and for that matter, NPC Drow using the MM rules) wouldn't. Membership in a multiversal cult is not a racial trait (nor should it be).

And you've said the change is justified because it makes things better, and doesn't inhibit the ability to add the missing trait in to the PCs. My counterargument is that your claim about not inhibiting adding the missing trait in can be said equally about removing said trait, therefore nullifying your assertion that the change is justified.

Actually no - my belief that it is justified is completely separate from whatever measures your DM takes (or doesn't take - as previously mentioned, I couldn't care less which) to resolve any disconnect you might have as a player.

[Envyus]

Ok just to try and end this silly Drow argument.

Drow in the PHB have Sunlight Sensitivity and still do, this has not gone away, and so these Drow can still be played.

Come 2024 and the Revised PHB Drow will probably not have Sunlight Sensitivity. If this bothers you, use the old version of the Drow in the first PHB which is still compatible.

Lolthite Drow the primary enemy Drow fought dwell underground and don't like the sun, so will keep their Sunlight Sensitivity.

[strangebloke]

Gotta be honest, I'm invested in OP's point about the new statblocks being bad, but I'm really not invested in reheating the leftovers of Tasha's Race Changes Discourse. That particular horse has been beaten to death, reanimated, beaten out of undeath, rezzed, and then killed again at least three times now, and nobody is going to shift their stances on it at this point.

[GooeyChewie]

Gotta be honest, I'm invested in OP's point about the new statblocks being bad, but I'm really not invested in reheating the leftovers of Tasha's Race Changes Discourse. That particular horse has been beaten to death, reanimated, beaten out of undeath, rezzed, and then killed again at least three times now, and nobody is going to shift their stances on it at this point.

That's very fair. And you're absolutely right that the Sunlight Sensitivity topic has turned into a rehash of Tasha's. I will consider the matter of Sunlight Sensitivity closed.