Whosoever views this Trailer shall possess the power of Thor: Love and Thunder

[Draconi Redfir]

this whole situation could have been avoided her if they just called her (In the context of Marvel Comics) "Jane the Thunder God".

just have (In the context of Marvel Comics) "The Thunder god" be the title that is passed down. Bam, problem solved.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

This will probably be one I look up on TV Tropes. I wasn’t keen on the tone shift in Ragnarok and from what I’ve heard this one will be more of the same.

Um you're kinda wrong on a few counts. Thor's been a Mantle since literally the first issue. It actually even being the real Thor was a retcon, now it was a Retcon that happened fairly early but it was a retcon still. Originally Blake Transformed into someone with the power of Thor. But wasn't actually Thor. Though he called himself that

Later still you have someone like Eric Masterson who also got the power of Thor, and shared his body with him. But then Thor left and retired. But Eric still called himself Thor even though the other original Thor was kinda still around. He changed his name to Thunderstrike when Thor came back.

Then Jane called herself Thor, even though Thor was still around. So other people calling themselves Thor as a title that's passed on has been part of the mythos since day one.

None of this applies to the MCU, where Thor is Thor and has always been Thor, and the closest he came to being someone else was when Jane and co. tried to pass him off as a human on steroids.

[DigoDragon]

It's gonna be a hard lift to follow Ragnarok in my opinion. That was peak Thor movie awesomeness. But I'll watch this one and see if they can at least get close; seems like it's keeping in that same silliness/adventure fun.

[Ramza00]

My point being, that even in the comics, Thor Odinson is the name and identity of the god of thunder.
It is not a title. Thor Odinson was born Thor Odinson. Its not a secret super hero identity like Iron Man or Captain Amerira.

And like has already mentioned, that is a retcon. That is not how the original 60s comics were when the character was introduced. Donald Blake was a separate from Thor, a handicapped person who became Godlike and the Thor part was not a god but magic, much like Billy Batson was separate from Captain Marvel / Shazam. 6 Years later a retcon happened saying Donald Blake was not real but Odin put a handicapped curse on Thor for Thor’s dad is a real piece of work. Then 30 years later there is another Retcon and Donald Blake becomes real (created by Odin) and he was always a plaything of the gods and he was not happy about this.

Retcons happened always. It is part of the genre. Thor was originally magic power given to you by an artifact much like DC’s Shazam or a Green Lantern ring? So why not return to origin and create a new story? That is what corporate ip does, it is generative, and it creates another baroque contradiction and adds to the tapestry of lore with more arcane details.

[Tyndmyr]

Retcons happened always. It is part of the genre. Thor was originally magic power given to you by an artifact much like DC’s Shazam or a Green Lantern ring? So why not return to origin and create a new story? That is what corporate ip does, it is generative, and it creates another baroque contradiction and adds to the tapestry of lore with more arcane details.

That
A. Doesn't apply to the MCU.
B. Doesn't make retcons good.

Plenty of comic retcons have been panned by fans. Yeah, are we gonna go digging up outrage from some 60 year old retcon? Probably not. Even comic book fans have to let go of spite eventually. But a new retcon always brings predictable backlash.

Whoever mentioned Miles Morales as a great way to do it...I agree. He's an amazing spiderman, and that's because he got his own story, he didn't just ride the coattales of someone else. Just a drag and drop replacement isn't a new story, it's...lazy, in the way that so much of modern hollywood already is. If you want to tell us about a new person, cool, tell us. Spin us the tale, and make it new.

[The Glyphstone]

This is odd, because from secondhand accounts I had always gotten the impression that the Mighty Thor run was fairly well-received by fans, since it was less a tale of 'hey new Thor better than old Thor' and more 'Odinson trying to figure out who he is without the mantle'. I'm definitely getting more of the second vibe from this trailer, leaving aside the explicit dialogue to that end.

[Anteros]

Well, there's already precedent for people wielding the hammer and gaining Thor's power with Cap. Of course the MCU is quickly reaching the point where more people can wield the hammer than not, so it's not that special anymore.

I don't really care if Thor passes off the mantle or whatever in the MCU. It makes more sense than in comics since actors actually age, and honestly I'm pretty sick of super hero movies by now anyway. The more they distance future movies from the ones I'm already invested in, the easier it will be for me to stop paying attention to them.

[Androgeus]

Of course the MCU is quickly reaching the point where more people can wield the hammer than not, so it's not that special anymore.

Five(ish) people is more than not? (Thor, Vision, Hela, Steve and Jane)

[Anteros]

Five(ish) people is more than not? (Thor, Vision, Hela, Steve and Jane)

There was also that frog from the Loki show, and I'm betting Beta Ray Bill soon. It's enough that it's no longer impressive or unique. We've seen more people lift it than fail at this point.

This is odd, because from secondhand accounts I had always gotten the impression that the Mighty Thor run was fairly well-received by fans, since it was less a tale of 'hey new Thor better than old Thor' and more 'Odinson trying to figure out who he is without the mantle'. I'm definitely getting more of the second vibe from this trailer, leaving aside the explicit dialogue to that end.

That would be an odd interpretation considering that he's hardly even present in the run, and the few times he does show up it's so she can show off how much better she is than him at being Thor. There are some comics that do explore that aspect, but the Mighty Thor run is very much about Jane Foster.

[The Glyphstone]

Was he shunted off into his own solo mini-series or something then? Like I said, I got all of this second or third-hand.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well, there's already precedent for people wielding the hammer and gaining Thor's power with Cap. Of course the MCU is quickly reaching the point where more people can wield the hammer than not, so it's not that special anymore.

Five(ish) people is more than not? (Thor, Vision, Hela, Steve and Jane)

Don't forget the elevator. I don't care what they say. The elevator is worthy.

[Anteros]

Was he shunted off into his own solo mini-series or something then? Like I said, I got all of this second or third-hand.

He shows up like twice in the first 20 issues and then at the climax. The run is very much about Jane.

He does show up as a side character in some other comics around the same time, and had his own 5 issue mini-series called The Unworthy Thor that explored some of the issues of him finding himself unworthy. The main run was almost entirely about Jane with a tiny bit of Loki and Thor sprinkled in.

[Ramza00]

That
Even comic book fans have to let go of spite eventually.

And that is what we are talking about. People generating new spite out of nothing, and say this is offensive and everyone should be offended. And other people responding no it is not offensive, it happens all the time (points to long list of similar comics but not 100% the same), and why is this specific thing what offends you when you did not care about dozens of other similar things.

This is odd, because from secondhand accounts I had always gotten the impression that the Mighty Thor run was fairly well-received by fans, since it was less a tale of 'hey new Thor better than old Thor' and more 'Odinson trying to figure out who he is without the mantle'. I'm definitely getting more of the second vibe from this trailer, leaving aside the explicit dialogue to that end.

It was well received by the people who read it. But lots of people got angry prior to reading it and they like their grudges.

The author who wrote the Thor character for years has a lot of talent. Just keep him away from the flaming chicken, and to a lesser extent the Avengers for while he wrote a superb Thor his strengths do not fit in all comics dynamics. (There is half a dozen artists for Thor in the last ten years. I think the various types of artist is just as important as the writer but how Marvel does this business wise is the writer is the more constant over years and the artist they move around.)

Was he shunted off into his own solo mini-series or something then? Like I said, I got all of this second or third-hand.

Yes

I am about to post a Baroque list that is 2 years out of date, assembled by Marvel’s website. It is the Jason Aaron’s run of the various Thors from 2012 to 2019.

The real way you should be reading comics is either the Marvel Unlimited subscription app which is 3 months out of date / lag. Or wait for complete collections to be assembled as trade paperbacks or the hardback omnibuses which are improvised melee weapons.

In May 2022 there will be a Jason Aaron vol 5 of complete collection that takes you up to Thor 2019 as one of those hardback improvised melee weapons. This list assembled below is from 2020, chronicling the comic run up to 2019, and thus they will mention the complete collection maxes out at vol 2 which takes you to 2014 (right before the Jane stuff.) Trade offs for comics are baroque and unapproachable.

A really long list time.

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...n-aaron-s-thor

Spoiler: 2012 to 2019

Show

The Complete Collection

Thor By Jason Aaron The Complete Collection Volume 1 (Thor: God of Thunder #1-18)
Thor By Jason Aaron The Complete Collection Volume 2 (Thor: God of Thunder #19-25, Thor (2014) #1-8, Thor Annual #1 and Thors #1-4)

Thor: God Of Thunder (2012-2015)

Thor: God Of Thunder Volume 1: The God Butcher (#1-5)
Thor: God Of Thunder Volume 2: Godbomb (#6-11)
Thor: God Of Thunder Volume 3: The Accursed (#12-18)
Thor: God Of Thunder Volume 4: The Last Days of Midgard (#19-25)
Thor: God of Thunder Volume 1 (#1-11)
Thor: God Of Thunder Volume 2 (#12-25)

Original Sin (2014)

Original Sin #0-8 (2014)
Original Sin: Thor & Loki - The Tenth Realm (Original Sin #5.1-5.5 2014)

Thor (2014-2015)

Thor #1-8, Annual #1 (2014-2105)
Thor Volume 1: The Goddess Of Thunder (#1-5)
Thor Volume 2: Who Holds The Hammer (#6-8, Annual #1)
Thor By Jason Aaron & Russell Dauterman Volume 1 (Thor #1-8, Annual #1)

Secret Wars (2015-2016)

Thors: Secret Wars Battleworld (Thors #1-4 2015-2016)

The Mighty Thor (2016-2018)

The Mighty Thor Volume 1: Thunder In Her Veins (#1-5)
The Mighty Thor Volume 2: Lords Of Midgard (#6-12)
The Mighty Thor Volume 3: The Asgard/Shi-Ar War (#13-19)
Unworthy Thor TPB (#1-5)
The Mighty Thor Volume 4: The War Thor (#20-23, Generations: Unworthy Thor And Mighty Thor #1)
The Mighty Thor Volume 5: The Death Of The Mighty Thor (#700-706, Mighty Thor At The Gates Of Valhalla #1)
Thor By Jason Aaron & Russell Dauterman Volume 2 (Mighty Thor #1-12)
Thor By Jason Aaron & Russell Dauterman Volume 3 (Mighty Thor #13-23, #700-706, Generations: Unworthy Thor & Mighty Thor and Mighty Thor At The Gates Of Valhalla)

Thor (2018-2019)

Thor Vol. 1: God Of Thunder Reborn (#1-6)
Thor Vol 2: Road To War Of The Realms (#7-11)
Thor Vol 3: War's End (#12-16)

War of the Realms

War of the Realms (2019)

Beyond!

King Thor (2019-2020)
Valkyrie: Jane Foster Volume 1: The Sacred And The Profane (#1-5)
Valkyrie: Jane Foster Volume 2: At The End Of All Things (#6-10)
Avengers #1-ongoing (2018-present)
Avengers Volume 1: The Final Host (#1-6)
Avengers Volume 2: World Tour (#7-12)
Avengers Volume 3: War of the Vampires (#13-17)
Avengers Volume 4: War of the Realms (#18-21, FCBD Story)
Avengers Volume 5: Challenge of the Ghost Riders (#22-25, All-New Ghost Rider #1)
Avengers Volume 6: Star Brand Reborn (#26-30)
Avengers Volume 7: Age of Khonshu (#31-37)

Jane Fosters run was Thor 2014 to 2015 often called Vol 4 for it got a new number 1 but that volume is different than the volumes I just posted which is how Marvel collects it in smaller trade paperbacks of 4 to 6 issues (150ish pages though can be shorter) which are then assembled into larger hardback omnibus’s or complete collections which are like 800 pages.

Thor from that time did not get his own book, and the next main book he was in was Unworthy Thor in late 2016. Meanwhile during that time he is in all the team books, crossovers, and other Asgard books with over 80 comic appearances in 2 years and change. You got to give Jane thor time to breathe, you also introduced Neil Gaiman’s Angela as Thor’s long lost sister in the same event when Thor lost his hammer and Angela gets her own series, Loki got his series, etc, etc. Oh yeah there was also Secret Wars one of those big events they only do every decade or so.

Note those 80+ comic appearances of Thor Odinson are not listed in the Jason Aaron thor list I posted above since so many writers that are not Jason wrote Thor at the time in their team books or Thor was guest starring in other books.

If you want too much detail of the sequential reading order where Thor Odinson has been in 2100+ comics (many not his own) go here. I am linking in the middle where Thor lost his hammer.

https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/char...rder_listing=1

—————

If it is not obvious that via having 2100+ comics for a single character you have to mess them up and throw the hammer around in order to tell a new and original story and to keep it novel. Why shouldn’t Jane have a turn?

[Dragonus45]

The author who wrote the Thor character for years has a lot of talent. Just keep him away from the flaming chicken, and to a lesser extent the Avengers for while he wrote a superb Thor his strengths do not fit in all comics dynamics. (There is half a dozen artists for Thor in the last ten years. I think the various types of artist is just as important as the writer but how Marvel does this business wise is the writer is the more constant over years and the artist they move around.)

To each their own I guess, I'll agree Jason Aaron has talent but I think he should be kept as far away from Thor or most any of the more mystical Marvel titles as the size of whatever building he is in will allow.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Five(ish) people is more than not? (Thor, Vision, Hela, Steve and Jane)

Hela wielded the hammer before Odin placed the restriction on it.

There was also that frog from the Loki show, and I'm betting Beta Ray Bill soon.

The Frog is a Thor variant. Google frog Thor.

[The Glyphstone]

Throg, Frog of Thunder. Second best background joke in Loki, after the Thanoscopter.

[Androgeus]

Hela wielded the hammer before Odin placed the restriction on it..

That was the reason I put ‘ish’, I wasn’t sure if her mid air grab of Mjolnir counted as wielding it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

That was the reason I put ‘ish’, I wasn’t sure if her mid air grab of Mjolnir counted as wielding it.

I think it’s more of the hammer is still flying at her and she’s holding it back.

[Trafalgar]

How many years have passed in the MCU since the first Thor movie?

[JadedDM]

The original Thor took place in the same year it was released--2011.

I think the MCU is still a bit ahead of the real world; 2024, I think? So about 13 years. Not sure when Love and Thunder is supposed to be set, though.

[Anteros]

And that is what we are talking about. People generating new spite out of nothing, and say this is offensive and everyone should be offended. And other people responding no it is not offensive, it happens all the time (points to long list of similar comics but not 100% the same), and why is this specific thing what offends you when you did not care about dozens of other similar things.

It was well received by the people who read it. But lots of people got angry prior to reading it and they like their grudges.

It was absolutely not well received by everyone who read it. This is just you trying to dismiss other people's opinions because you don't share them. Other people's opinions are valid.

Those other examples you're talking about had plenty of people that disliked them as well. You're just not as personally invested in defending those stories.

Thor from that time did not get his own book, and the next main book he was in was Unworthy Thor in late 2016. Meanwhile during that time he is in all the team books, crossovers, and other Asgard books with over 80 comic appearances in 2 years and change. You got to give Jane thor time to breathe, you also introduced Neil Gaiman’s Angela as Thor’s long lost sister in the same event when Thor lost his hammer and Angela gets her own series, Loki got his series, etc, etc. Oh yeah there was also Secret Wars one of those big events they only do every decade or so.

Ensemble appearances do not make up for removing a character from their own book for years at a time to the fans of that character.

If it is not obvious that via having 2100+ comics for a single character you have to mess them up and throw the hammer around in order to tell a new and original story and to keep it novel. Why shouldn’t Jane have a turn?

For the same reason that people didn't like it when Jim Gordon spent a year as Batman or Ben Reilly/Doc Ock took over as Spidey. Those aren't the characters we paid to see. You want to make a new character? Make a new book and actually put in the work to make them interesting in their own right instead of just subbing them in for an established character. If I'm reading a Batman book I want to see the real Batman, not some poseur cosplaying as them. Same with Thor.

The Frog is a Thor variant. Google frog Thor.

I'm aware. Just pointing out that seeing random people who aren't "our Thor" wield the hammer is hardly rare in the MCU.

To each their own I guess, I'll agree Jason Aaron has talent but I think he should be kept as far away from Thor or most any of the more mystical Marvel titles as the size of whatever building he is in will allow.

I don't know many individual comic writers, but if he's the guy that writes Thor then I definitely agree that the main Thor book is almost always completely terrible. The Jane arc wasn't so much a drop in quality as it was a continuation of awful writing. I get to read them for free though, and I like Loki as a character so I pick them up every now and then, even though he hardly ever gets any decent moments outside of his own mini-series.

[The Glyphstone]

According to this article, Thor 1 took place in MCU-2011, Thor: Ragnarok took place in MCU-2017. Endgame concludes in MCU-2023, and this appears to immediately follow that or closely afterwards.

So, 12 in-universe years?

[Bohandas]

maybe it'll be a reverse of the trope.

instead of it being aliens who are / pose as old human (in the context of Sci Fi) gods

it's aliens who were inspired by old human (in the context of Sci Fi) gods and just adopted their culture and stories to themselves.

Like that one bit on Futurama?

"We learned many things from the mighty Egyptians, such as pyramid-building, space travel and how to prepare our dead so as to scare Abbott and Costello."

[Tyndmyr]

And that is what we are talking about. People generating new spite out of nothing, and say this is offensive and everyone should be offended. And other people responding no it is not offensive, it happens all the time (points to long list of similar comics but not 100% the same), and why is this specific thing what offends you when you did not care about dozens of other similar things.

Not nothing. It happened because of something new. People are going to be upset over news even if something like it happened like sixty years ago. Yeah, we care about the new thing more than something we know about that happened before we were even alive. That's how people work.

That's why the busy threads are almost always about new movie releases, and not *just* about people discussing old retcons they hated. They do that too, sometimes, though. Get folks arguing about Star Wars movies or what not, and you'll have rage for days. No inconsistency there.

I think itÂ’s more of the hammer is still flying at her and sheÂ’s holding it back.

In addition to that, she is clearly shown to be wielding it in the painting of her with Odin.

This is not necessarily an inconsistency...in fact, that history and her power being very weapon specific may explain why she, specifically, is able to destroy the hammer when clearly nobody else can.

But it's certainly a tally mark on the list of characters in the MCU we've seen worthy of wielding it.

At this point, another character being shown to be worthy of wielding the hammer is most definitely a lot less impressive and surprising than when Vision did. It's not necessarily bad or illogical(another universe's Thor is likely to have a hammer or equivalent) but story wise, it's not as interesting to use the same trick again.

Overall, I view this trailer as kind of meh. References to comic things are not super exciting in themselves for me, unless I really like the story they're referring to. Nostalgia baiting isn't usually a plus, a new costume is whatever. I liked Ragnarok quite a bit, and I do hope that this film lives up to that bar, but this particular trailer doesn't really give out enough info to guarantee it's got the same sort of solid humor and adventuresome vibe. Of course, being a trailer, it's inherently incomplete in many cases, so who knows what else is there?

[Lord Vukodlak]

In addition to that, she is clearly shown to be wielding it in the painting of her with Odin.

This is not necessarily an inconsistency...

Because the Worthy enchantment wasn’t added until the Thor film. It didn’t exist when Hela had it.
So who has shown themselves worthy?
Captain America(a given)
Vision.(vital plot point in showing he could be trusted)
And now Jane.
Given the scope of the marvel films that’s not a huge list.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, Hela was simply able to stop Mjolnir through personal power. She didn't have to be worthy, she was just stronger than Odin.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Either way it's done, the trick here is getting Natalie Portman to commit. She's a great actress when she gives it her all, but she has a bad tendency to coast vacantly through projects she's not locked-in on.

I must not have seen her in anything where she commits, because I’ve never seen her turn in any performance that wasn’t as thin as a solar sail. From what I’ve seen she’s one of the most overrated actresses around.

Originally Posted by JoshL
Same here on Squirrel Girl. That was the first superhero book I followed since I was a kid, and the first print subscription I've had since the 80s! I loved that book, and I hope SG gets a film sometime soon….

Have you seen Marvel Rising? Animated, but it’s a start.

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
I wasn’t keen on the tone shift in Ragnarok and from what I’ve heard this one will be more of the same.

...None of this applies to the MCU, where Thor is Thor and has always been Thor, and the closest he came to being someone else was when Jane and co. tried to pass him off as a human on steroids

Agreed on both counts.

[Mechalich]

I must not have seen her in anything where she commits, because I’ve never seen her turn in any performance that wasn’t as thin as a solar sail. From what I’ve seen she’s one of the most overrated actresses around.

Well, the go to example is Black Swan, which is a genuinely excellent performance. Her performance in Jackie was also supposed to be very good, but I have not seen that movie. Generally any of the performances I think people point to will all be smaller films. I don't think she's ever turned in a high quality performance in a blockbuster.

She also, in my opinion, isn't very open as an actress and her range is therefore narrowed to characters who are themselves opaque or hiding something, often even from themselves. If you give her a character the audience is supposed to understand completely it doesn't really work.

[DigoDragon]

Because the Worthy enchantment wasn’t added until the Thor film. It didn’t exist when Hela had it.

That is an important point to remember in Thor 1. Geez, looking at the release date, it feels like an eternity ago for me. :p

Yeah, Hela was simply able to stop Mjolnir through personal power. She didn't have to be worthy, she was just stronger than Odin.

The immovable object to the hammer's unstoppable force. But yeah, being able to stop Mjolnir mid-flight means that she is... Hela strong.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as Portman's acting chops, I've only ever seen her in Thor and Star Wars, but both of those managed to make even better actors look terrible by comparison. Lucas's famous direction-less directing is hard for anyone to shine under, and in Thor she was relegated to one-dimensional stereotype in the first and 'comatose body' in the second - allegedly why she refused to return to the MCU till now.

I haven't see Jackie or Black Swan, but both are supposed to be excellent. So I'll hold out hope that Waititi can do what Lucas couldn't and coax a top grade performance out of her.