OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

As she said herself, Serini hasn't had a Druid in the party for some time. Besides, no characters but the villains were even considering what the Gods would do until the dangling Godsmoot plot smacked them in the face, so it's not just her.

The Scribblers as a group completely succeeded at their initial goal. The aftermath where someone might figure out the Gates themselves might be used as a weapon was given barely any thought. Yes, they figured out this possibility but I think it is fair to say they did not have a plan or consider the larger ramifications at all.

Heck, they apparently knew a Gate could be weaponized, but they may not have realized that this could actually be used to kill a god. The gods live Out There and the Gates wrap Rifts in the fabric of This World Here. Whether they did or did not recognize this specific possibility is speculation.

[Morgaln]

Sunny meeting the MitD will be gold. I wouldn't be surprised if the two ended up as long-term friends in the end.

[Joebob]

Eh, I'd peg Serini as CN at best.

oh no, here we go again...

[KorvinStarmast]

Shh, no one tell her that the gods WERE willing to negotiate with the Dark One until he blocked everybody.

Ninja'd.

I almost missed Lien's "Jump the shark" reference.

One of the best lines in the strip.

Sunny meeting the MitD will be gold. I wouldn't be surprised if the two ended up as long-term friends in the end.

It might get overly cute, though.

Strip assessment:
1. Belkar returns to his Truth Teller role: he's been doing that since way early in OoTS.
2. Lien: shark jump reference nicely slipped in.
3. O-Chul's eleven puppy dog eyes line was perfect.
4. Expression on Lien's face as regards "Yes, we're all friend now" was nicely presented.

The rest of it was like eating popcorn rather than a meal, given the inevitability of the need to get Serini on their side.

I had yet another Talkie man talkie too much flashback.

[137beth]

Oh Nine Hells yes, Belkar is helping in a way that doesn't involve fighting!

[elros]

Sunny meeting the MitD will be gold. I wouldn't be surprised if the two ended up as long-term friends in the end.

I would wager on that outcome happening.

Also impressive role playing and use of charisma-based skills by all of the parties involved. Sunny gets extra points for making a paladin change her mind

[Wowlock]

Well, you need a halfling to convince halfling I guess.
And yes, one thing you can count on about the gods, they will self-preserve first and foremost.

[StragaSevera]

What I loved most in this strip was a subtle probe of Roy by Serini - asking about "what if the best way to solve the situation involves helping Xykon". It is a nice way of testing him - is he on a vengeance quest? Can he be trusted to make judgements, or will he warp truth to fit his point of view?

[Fyraltari]

What I loved most in this strip was a subtle probe of Roy by Serini - asking about "what if the best way to solve the situation involves helping Xykon". It is a nice way of testing him - is he on a vengeance quest? Can he be trusted to make judgements, or will he warp truth to fit his point of view?

And don't forget: "will he lie to me about it?"

[Ronfar]

What's the DC for a will save against puppy dog eyes?

[Jason]

Serini really needs to work on her "never trust a lawful good person" issue. It's understandable given her past, but it has almost resulted in the world being destroyed. Good thing Belkar and Haylee are here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini really needs to work on her "never trust a lawful good person" issue. It's understandable given her past,

Hardly, but I'd offer that it is more understandable given that she was sweet on Girard and his issues with LG was nearly a mania. It seems to have rubbed off on her.

[Ruck]

Would Roy concede something to Xykon if it fixed the problem?

Looks like my "Xykon supplants Hel" theory has some juice. Or at least a wink and a nod.

What problem would that solve?

And how would that even work?

----

Anyway, very satisfying strip. I tried to find somewhere I may have mentioned that Belkar would be the one to-- or at least play a major part to-- convince Serini, but I couldn't find anything with a search. (And I very much doubt I was the only one.) And it may have just been a hypothetical "I'd like to see that" imagined conversation rather than a prediction. Anyway, again, very satisfying, and vindicating, and I get the sense we're close to wrapping up this chapter so I'm excited to see what comes next.

[Jacky720]

Is it just me, or does Belkar crane his head forward the littlest amount in panels 5 and 11? It feels like a really subtle change having a big impact on his expressivity.

And when was the last time he smiled like in page 2, panel 6? It looks good on him.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Hallelujah, there's nothing like previously resolutely obstinate characters finally actually coming around to seeing some genuine sense.

Roy and Durkon should frankly never be in charge of any diplomatic efforts again unless there are no other choices available. Leave that to Belkar, Haley and Elan whenever possible.

So now that this one tentative ray of cooperative hope has been cast into the situation, what fresh horrors await in a couple of strips? I wonder.

[arimareiji]

Too much to love about this comic. Great job, Giant. <3

Not sure (there really is too much) but if I had to pick, my favorite aspect would be Belkar as the realist diplomat and Lien as his foil.

Great chaotic empathy check by Belkar there.

I almost missed Lien's "Jump the shark" reference.

Given the setting, I'd have additional questions about Sunny's "Cool dead bug". Bug sized or creature sized? Dead or "dead"? Does it have ice properties? "Bug" as in an arthropod or as in bugbear/bugaboo/bogeyman?

Thank you, I did miss it and that would have been a shame. (^_^)b

I'm going with "an ankheg that's now literally stoned".
(Now I'm imagining Sunny as Frank N. Furter, with Elan as Magenta and Columbia comforting him: "It just took a small accident... an accident!")

[Edreyn]

Some time ago, I posted an idea that heroes will have to defeat not only Team Evil, but also gods themselves. In this strip, Roy admits that he wants to protect the world from gods aswell. So, who knows, maybe my idea was right. Mortals can't actually cause damage to gods, but maybe they will somehow, with help/use of Snarl for example, render them uncapable to impact the world, or maybe force them to leave it alone.

After all they can't be sure that gods won't erase everything even if Snarl is defeated, just in case. And if the author will use the not so rare idea, to make the plot turn upside down in the almost end, and the Snarl will be revealed as a good guy or at least his struggle with gods will be revealed as "turf war" with no good guys at all, protagonists will want to achieve true freedom.

[hungrycrow]

Some time ago, I posted an idea that heroes will have to defeat not only Team Evil, but also gods themselves. In this strip, Roy admits that he wants to protect the world from gods aswell. So, who knows, maybe my idea was right. Mortals can't actually cause damage to gods, but maybe they will somehow, with help/use of Snarl for example, render them uncapable to impact the world, or maybe force them to leave it alone.

After all they can't be sure that gods won't erase everything even if Snarl is defeated, just in case. And if the author will use the not so rare idea, to make the plot turn upside down in the almost end, and the Snarl will be revealed as a good guy or at least his struggle with gods will be revealed as "turf war" with no good guys at all, protagonists will want to achieve true freedom.

What would be the point of that? The Gods already refrain from interfering in the material world outside of empowering mortals. That's even an obstacle to the heroes, since they can't get the Gods to offer anything that could placate TDO. The only threat they pose is potentially destroying the world, which they wouldn't want to do if the Order actually manages to save the day.

[Psyren]

Well, you need a halfling to convince halfling I guess.

More like you need a crook to convince a crook. Or a cynic to convince a cynic.

(I will say however that this exchange is a great example of how being aware of and properly appealing to a NPC's Ideals, Bonds and Flaws trumps natural charisma.)

And yes, one thing you can count on about the gods, they will self-preserve first and foremost.

Considering that they literally can't even go talk to the DO if he doesn't want them to without making Snarl 2.0, I'm inclined to be just a bit more charitable toward them than she and Belkar are being. It's not as black and white as saying the gods are inherently selfish; Thor is doing the best he can within their byzantine rules to safely effect change, because the cost of breaking those rules is far too high, especially now.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Some time ago, I posted an idea that heroes will have to defeat not only Team Evil, but also gods themselves.

#388 aside, this is not final fantasy.

In this strip, Roy admits that he wants to protect the world from gods aswell. So, who knows, maybe my idea was right. Mortals can't actually cause damage to gods, but maybe they will somehow, with help/use of Snarl for example, render them uncapable to impact the world, or maybe force them to leave it alone.

In 3.5e gods can be fought. I forget the exact rules, and they tend to have stats and abilities well into the epic, but they are technically fightable.

And if the author will use the not so rare idea, to make the plot turn upside down in the almost end, and the Snarl will be revealed as a good guy or at least his struggle with gods will be revealed as "turf war" with no good guys at all, protagonists will want to achieve true freedom.

My understanding (and I believe there are qoutes from the giant to support this) is that the snarl isn't a character, it's a macguffin.

Also, if you're going to turn a story upside down at the end, it should look better upside down. Like a good murder mystery may surprise you at the very end, but you'll agree that the final understanding of events is logical, more-so even that presumptions before the big reveal.

Given the themes, I really don't see this story looking better upside down.

[KorvinStarmast]

render them uncapable to impact the world, or maybe force them to leave it alone.

Baby out with the bathwater noted. That doesn't solve anything, the world is still close to being eaten by the snarl. Thor isn't lying about that based on the extended encounter Durkon and Minrah had with Thor in the afterlife.

More like you need a crook to convince a crook. Or a cynic to convince a cynic.

Or a jerk to speak in a jerk's language.

It's not as black and white as saying the gods are inherently selfish; Thor is doing the best he can within their byzantine rules to safely effect change, because the cost of breaking those rules is far too high, especially now.

And not just for the gods.

[Jaecp]

Some time ago, I posted an idea that heroes will have to defeat not only Team Evil, but also gods themselves. In this strip, Roy admits that he wants to protect the world from gods aswell. So, who knows, maybe my idea was right. Mortals can't actually cause damage to gods, but maybe they will somehow, with help/use of Snarl for example, render them uncapable to impact the world, or maybe force them to leave it alone.

After all they can't be sure that gods won't erase everything even if Snarl is defeated, just in case. And if the author will use the not so rare idea, to make the plot turn upside down in the almost end, and the Snarl will be revealed as a good guy or at least his struggle with gods will be revealed as "turf war" with no good guys at all, protagonists will want to achieve true freedom.

Sounds like Babylon 5

The real question for me is if the Greek coded gods exist still on that planet inside the snarl or if thats the "real world"

[Fyraltari]

Sounds like Babylon 5

The real question for me is if the Greek coded gods exist still on that planet inside the snarl or if thats the "real world"

Thr Giant is on the record saying that Earth isn't the planet in the Rift and that it (Earth) will never feature in the comic.

No word on Zeus's clan, though.

[Hiro Quester]

Sunny meeting the MitD will be gold. I wouldn't be surprised if the two ended up as long-term friends in the end.

I would pay to watch that spinoff series

[Sargraz]

Great page

I really hope (but doubt) that Eugene can watch them right now. His reaction to Roys answer would be interesting

[Matt620]

I don't know how I feel about this one. It feels more like a "bash the gods" moment more than anything else.

[Ruck]

a cynic to convince a cynic.

I think that's what it is. Serini is cynical about the Order's chances and their confidence in their ability not to screw this up, and-- funnily enough, in a parallel to Redcloak-- finds it rather convenient that their argument about what the gods will do just happens to line up with their pre-existing goals. It takes Belkar-- not just a fellow halfling but someone nobody would mistake as having the best of intentions-- to lay it out in terms of the gods' own motivations, which is something Serini, being also cynical about authority and power, readily understands.

[P. G. Macer]

That was amazing! I really enjoyed Roy’s “Actually, it’s hideously complicated” line, and of course Elan an Sunny’s tag-team puppy eyes was both adorable and hilarious!

Of course it’d be Belkar who is the one to break through! It’s so obvious in hindsight, but I still didn’t see it coming before now.

[Lord Torath]

Got a little typo on the first speech bubble, 4th panel of page 2 says "when was I working the angles" instead of "when I was working the angles", love the fact that Belkar is the one to convince her.

I had to read your post about 5 times before I saw what was different between your two quotes.

What's the DC for a will save against puppy dog eyes?

Maybe about 5 per eye? Against 11 eyes, that's a DC 55 will save.

Looks like my "Xykon supplants Hel" theory has some juice. Or at least a wink and a nod.

What problem would that solve?

And how would that even work?

Don't get him started. Just go get some tissues for all the epileptic trees.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know how I feel about this one. It feels more like a "bash the gods" moment more than anything else.

I mean, given the way they voted, can you say they don't deserve it?