The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[GreatWyrmGold]

An anime water girl can't possibly be the actual art WotC used, right?

WotC didn't use any art.
I suppose we should be glad Debatra didn't come across a Monster Musume image first...


The ectoplasm elemental doesn't have nothing. Its slam deals as much damage an equivalently-sized greatsword (more for Large+ ones), even ignoring the sticky acid damage; Engulf is a neat ability, even if it's only useful on smaller enemies, the elemental type doesn't have any good size-changing effects, and the ectoplasm elemental still seems to be grappled while using it; and DR/- is always nice.
But the elementals with few enough HD to be considered are small enough that their grappling abilities are only useless on harmless vermin and Ratlar the Rat Witch. That basically leaves them with a slam comparable to a normal weapon, damage reduction, and a heap of situational immunities. Oh, and if you shake hands with a peasant they're gonna go to the ER. -0

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean‚ that's just a Fire elemental with worse stats and worse speed. Engulf won't come up before you have too many HD to be viable. 4 natural armor is good on a 2RHD creature‚ but the inability to wield weapon and the absence of any useful ability makes it uninteresting. -0 for all.

[danielxcutter]

An anime water girl can't possibly be the actual art WotC used, right?

More’s the pity, really.

WotC didn't use any art.
I suppose we should be glad Debatra didn't come across a Monster Musume image first...

Coward. :p

[ff7hero]

-0

Unless they're canonically blob girls, because that's one case I'll use WotC's softbanning method and give them +5 LA.

[Glimbur]

What if you psywar so you can get big enough to engulf with low hd? Still voting -0.

[loky1109]

I'm agree. -0

[GreatWyrmGold]

What if you psywar so you can get big enough to engulf with low hd? Still voting -0.

-0, but...

An ectoplasm elemental 2/psychic warrior 1 can become Medium, letting her engulf goblins. Ectomental 4/psywar 1 or ectomental 2/psywar 7 lets her become Large and engulf normal mooks. She would need ectomental 4/psywar 7 to engulf larger bruisers, and it's not worth considering what it would take to engulf something Huge or Gargantuan.

But unless there's a Persistent Power metapsychic feat or something, you're only getting that for a handful of rounds per manifestation.

[Thurbane]

Looks like an easy -0 to me.

+0 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Caelestion, loky1109, InvisibleBison, GreatWyrmGold, emulord
-0 - ff7hero, Thurbane, remetagross

Not sure it would affect the outcome, but my vote was actually +1, not -0.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm wondering, what makes a creature an elemental? If it's just "being made from the stuff of a plane", then most outsiders should be elementals. The blood elemental is an outsider despite being very clearly made of the stuff of the demiplane of blood. Right now, "true" elementals include the four elements, a few paraelementals, Taint, Shadow and Ectoplasm elementals. Taint elementals are created from taint (which may or may not come from the Abyss), but are explicitly said to not be true elementals as they are not created from the four elements. Shadow elementals lack this language, and seem to be real elementals in all regards, and darkness elementals in 2e were in a way quasi-elementals of shadow and negative energy (though they are considered elementals while the nightshades are considered undead). There was never a positive or negative energy elemental, though quasi-elementals of the four elements and negative and positive energy existed in 2e.

Until now, all elementals were creatures mostly composed of the stuff from five specific inner planes and their combinations: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Shadow. But the Ectoplasm Elemental... isn't. The Demiplane of Ectoplasm is in the middle of the Astral Plane, and cannot be reached through the Ethereal like the inner planes. It works like an elemental, but it's like the taint elemental in that it's not made of the same thing. I feel like the wizards and scholars of the D&D world call "elementals" every formless thing that is easy to summon, which incidentally means the creatures from the closest planes to the material planes: the inner planes and the plane of shadow. Afterwards, everything that can easily be summoned that didn't look like anything they knew (ectoplasm elemental, taint elemental, blood elemental), they called elementals without regards to if that made sense. And I'm not sure if "wizards" here does mean "Wizards" or just the in-game wizards.

[danielxcutter]

The blood elemental is stated to be kind of a misnomer, to be fair.

[Debatra]

Yeah, the lore makes it clear that what some guy dubbed "the Elemental Plane of Blood" is actually some kind of quasi-Lovecraftian alien dimension.

[Tzardok]

The description of outsider in the Monster Manuals mentions that they are made at least partially out of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of other planes, with the implication that elementals are made of material. Also, elementals are homogenous (Edit: or mostly homogenous; see also omnimental), while outsiders in general have at least some kind of anatomy (don't ask me what kind of vital organs you see when vivisecting a lantern archon, but it must have them. Otherwise it would be immune to critical hits and sneak attacks).

To me, the demiplane of ectoplasm reflects some of those demiplanes that existed in 2e on the Ethereal, like the demiplane of electromagnetism. From what I remember, there were Ethereal demiplanes that "mimicked" elemental planes (like electromagnetism, metal or wood) which were also inhabited by elementals. I think the demiplane of ectoplasm is cut from the same cloth (and if it weren't a psionic demiplane, I would propably transfere it to the Ethereal).

[Thurbane]

Yeah, the lore makes it clear that what some guy dubbed "the Elemental Plane of Blood" is actually some kind of quasi-Lovecraftian alien dimension.

I might have even asked this on one of Afroakumar's threads, but I wonder if it's related to The Far Realm...

[Tzardok]

I might have even asked this on one of Afroakumar's threads, but I wonder if it's related to The Far Realm...

Yep, you did. It's on the last page of thread number seven, and the answer you got was this:

Well, let's see. An actual blood elemental would be summoned from the Deep Ethereal conduits around Ravenloft, but that's not what that thing is - that thing is an outsider labeled "blood elemental" by a mad mage who developed a summoning spell that contacts an Outer Plane in an alternate cosmology (or possibly an unknown layer of the Abyss, which is just as plausible and, as noted, dude was crazy).

[remetagross]

This monster sucks. The large one has the best ratio of ability modifiers to HDs but then the fact its abilities' DC does not factor in any ability score makes them very nonthreatening. LA-0 for all.

[Socksy]

[...]
CR: 1/2 if a 1st-level Warrior
WotC LA: +0
Our LA: __

It's a Psionic Dwarf [...]

You appear not to have filled in the LA for these guys.

I would also like to vote -0 for all sizes of goo-girl. Wow, I'm not sure I've ever been up to date and able to vote on one of these threads before.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm wondering, what makes a creature an elemental?

An elemental is made of elemental energy. An outsider is made of planar energy. Simple.

This distinction may seem arbitrary for elemental planes; it may, in fact, be arbitrary. The distinction between, say, a djinn and an air elemental seems to follow the biologist's rule of thumb ("you know it when you see it"). But that's the logic that D&D seems to operate on.

(This is probably part of why 5e dissolved the Outsider classification.)

[Debatra]

A clear -0 across the board. Next is the Elhoriad.

[Debatra]

Elhoriad

Size & Type: Medium Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 5
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +6, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +2 - Net +14, no penalties
Natural Armor: 5
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Claws (1d4 plus Entropic Touch)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid Skeleton
Speech (Languages): Not specified, presumably no.
CR: 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

They look like charred black skeletons, which often causes foes to underestimate them. They have a generally better statline, as well as actual intelligence. They retain the DR 5/bludgeoning and cold immunity of their mindless cousins, though they don't get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. They're proficient with longswords, which is nice I guess.

They only have one special power, though it's actually quite nice. Whenever an Elhoriad hits an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, outsider, plant, or vermin with one of its claws, the victim must make a Charisma-based Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of drain to both Strength and Constitution.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Great, a skeleton without bonus feat and 5 RHD. It is intelligent, and the claw rider is strong but it still misses the mark for me (also, oozes and elementals are immune). LA -0

It's more dangerous as a monster than as a PC, and still is only CR 3.

[Socksy]

You could probably make a clawlock out of the skeleton. Undead immunities are nice, 5 Undead hit dice are not - does it have any kind of Turn Resistance?

Is there a simple way to get the drain to be a bigger die than a d4? It's been a while since I've done much with 3.5e.

If we're assuming our friend here can't talk I'd give it -0 for sure. If it can talk... probably still -0 but I'd be less certain.

[loky1109]

It looks as -0. Useful in some circumstances -0, but still -0.

[remetagross]

Debatra, you've put a net ability modifier of +20 for these guys, but it should be +14.

They're cute. Their rider should specify "anything except oozes, undead and elementals", it should be faster. They're an LA-0 for me, but actually not that far off from an LA+0 - 5 RHDs is just that bit too much.

[GreatWyrmGold]

On one hand, it has one really cool special ability (weird wording aside). It affects everything except constructs, elementals, oozes, or undead; why not just say "living creature except elementals or oozes," or better yet, cut to the chase and say anything immune to critical hits is immune to Entropic Touch?

Anyways, Entropic Touch weakens enemies you hit, and enemies which don't care about Strength will probably be more Constitution-starved, so the only enemies it's useless against are the ones immune to it. And the ones that can make the saving throw—you'd definitely want to find ways to boost that!

The downside is that there aren't a lot of ways to boost Entropic Touch, and of course that elhoriads don't really have anything else at a level where wizards can fireball, warlocks can (almost) fly all day, and monks get a +1 AC bonus. Unless someone digs up some synergistic prestige class or cheese or something, -0.

[Metastachydium]

why not just (…) cut to the chase and say anything immune to critical hits is immune to Entropic Touch?

[Sighs.] Because Plants. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?

[Troacctid]

These abilities are more appropriate for a 3 HD monster. -0

[Metastachydium]

(Speaking of types, Deathless are arguably also immune. Not that anyone cares (or should care) about Deathless.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

(Speaking of types, Deathless are arguably also immune. Not that anyone cares (or should care) about Deathless.)

I mean‚ they're positive energy undead‚ they're already immune to ability drain.

[GreatWyrmGold]

[Sighs.] Because Plants. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?

I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.

[danielxcutter]

I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.

Probably “yes”.