The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Beni-Kujaku]

A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.

It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.

Naturally spellcasting creatures can always use somatic components. Others have to use Surrogate Spellcasting. And the Ember Spawn arguably has no vocal chords that would qualify for "You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs.". Worms don't scream.

What about a celestial shrieker?

I think you mean Half-Celestial, since Celestial doesn't even give you SLAs. That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another.

One could just go Sparrow Hengeyokai and stay in little sparrow form all the time. It comes with a 50' fly speed, much better stats and the ability to assume a form two forms that have none of the drawbacks associated with being a decidedly non-humanoid fine creature.

This ember larva something is literally worse for every purpose other than grappling which it has precious little to do with. I don't see the appeal, let alone the +1s.

Hengeyokai is a pretty powerful race and the sparrow variant is arguably overpowered to the point that it's mentioned in a lot of optimization thread as one of, if not the best race LA +0 for a caster. Being worse than that is like saying that a build is worthless because it loses to tier 1 persistomancy. Also, the maggot can walk at a decent speed instead of having to rely on (average) flying for everything, and can deliver touch spells and powers without incurring opportunity attacks. It's not much compared to flying, but it's something.

[loky1109]

"You must still have suitable appendages and vocal organs.". Worms don't scream.

It isn't always true. These caterpillars imitate birds' calls. Not just scream something, but specific sounds.

That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another.

Why? It's just spores spreading.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd play one of these for +0. Heck, I'd probably play one for +1, but that's because I find the image of one of these tiny little guys leaping onto someone and wrestling them to the ground hilarious.

[Metastachydium]

I think you mean Half-Celestial, since Celestial doesn't even give you SLAs. That said, I don't want to imagine an extraplanar, god-chosen shrieker fungus mating with another.

But then, Half-Celestial doesn't remove mindlessness. Maybe a Half-Celestial Celestial (Celestial-and-a-Half?) Shrieker, then?

Hengeyokai is a pretty powerful race and the sparrow variant is arguably overpowered to the point that it's mentioned in a lot of optimization thread as one of, if not the best race LA +0 for a caster.

Except maybe for druids, khm, anthropomorphic bat, khm, but yeah,

Being worse than that is like saying that a build is worthless because it loses to tier 1 persistomancy.

that's fair enough. I'm still not sure fine size and its one trick will carry the ember spawn on itself too far. Looks like taking the caster route promises a pretty feat-hungry trip too. I'll stay on -0 for the time being.

It isn't always true. These caterpillars imitate birds' calls. Not just scream something, but specific sounds.

Hey, that's pretty cool, actually! I don't think it helps our maggot here, mind you, but it is pretty cool.

[Thurbane]

This thing is giving me a headache just looking at it. I'm going to guesstimate LA +0 and be done with it.

[ciopo]

Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?

There probably has been some precedent?

[Thurbane]

Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?

There probably has been some precedent?

Yeah, these threads have always run with any creature type that has 1HD (or a fraction of a HD) swaps it out for first class level.

[H_H_F_F]

Naturally spellcasting creatures can always use somatic components. Others have to use Surrogate Spellcasting.

I don't think you're right about that, Beni.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person.

"Naturally" isn't a distinction the rules make here, nor do they ever reference innate spellcasting or the like. It's just "spellcasting creature".

I triple checked that when building Anvil, because Surrogate Spellcasting really didn't seem like it'd work on a whale, even before considering issues with material componnents.

[Thurbane]

I always assumed the implication was that the above quote was specifically for creatures with innate casting, but I agree it isn't air tight one way or the other.

[H_H_F_F]

I always assumed the implication was that the above quote was specifically for creatures with innate casting, but I agree it isn't air tight one way or the other.

I mean, RAW seems pretty hard set to me. A human wizard is a spellcasting creature.

I am willing to recognize that RAI is very murky here, though I really tend to think that it's on my side as well. How else do you interpret, say, Unicorn Celestial Charger? Not trying to treat monster blocks as a source for general rules here, but certainly as a supporting argument for my case being RAI, not just RAW.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean, RAW seems pretty hard set to me. A human wizard is a spellcasting creature.

I am willing to recognize that RAI is very murky here, though I really tend to think that it's on my side as well. How else do you interpret, say, Unicorn Celestial Charger? Not trying to treat monster blocks as a source for general rules here, but certainly as a supporting argument for my case being RAI, not just RAW.

If that was the case‚ then the initial description of Somatic components would make no sense.

Spoiler: Somatic components

Show

SOMATIC
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. An S appears on a spell’s Components line when a somatic component is required. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

It makes no sense to need a free hand if you can just move your body.

Also‚ the Rules Compendium clarifies that "Spellcasting Creatures" are creatures who cast spells "as a member of a spellcasting class" but "do not gain any class features of the class". So‚ basically‚ creatures with racial spellcasting.

Spoiler: Rules Compendium

Show

SPELLCASTING CREATURES
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can. Such a creature can activate magic items accordingly. It’s subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature still needs material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell either by touching a required component that isn’t in another creature’s possession or by having the required component on its body. Spellcasting creatures sometimes utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid having to use some material components. A spellcasting creature isn’t actually a member of a class and doesn’t gain any class features unless its description says otherwise.

[H_H_F_F]

If that was the case‚ then the initial description of Somatic components would make no sense.

Spoiler: Somatic components

Show

SOMATIC
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. An S appears on a spell’s Components line when a somatic component is required. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

It makes no sense to need a free hand if you can just move your body.

Also‚ the Rules Compendium clarifies that "Spellcasting Creatures" are creatures who cast spells "as a member of a spellcasting class" but "do not gain any class features of the class". So‚ basically‚ creatures with racial spellcasting.

Spoiler: Rules Compendium

Show

SPELLCASTING CREATURES
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can. Such a creature can activate magic items accordingly. It’s subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows. A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature still needs material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell either by touching a required component that isn’t in another creature’s possession or by having the required component on its body. Spellcasting creatures sometimes utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid having to use some material components. A spellcasting creature isn’t actually a member of a class and doesn’t gain any class features unless its description says otherwise.

Arguement 1 wouldn't really bother me - we're guven a rule (free hand) and then an exception to the rule (creatures without such appendages).

Arguement 2... That's a very strong one. Damn. I really need to get my hands on the Rules Compendium.

[Metastachydium]

Is it 1RHD , or is it "0" RHD? Not for the creature type, afaik only humanoids and monstrous humanoids have that trait, but does 1/4RHD equal to 0 when converting to adding/using class levels?

There probably has been some precedent?

Yeah, these threads have always run with any creature type that has 1HD (or a fraction of a HD) swaps it out for first class level.

Thing's also not exclusive to (monstrous) humanoids; out of core, pixies, for instance, have the same clause among their racial traits.

[Socksy]

I'm thinking +1 for this guy. Its stats are too good for a +0, especially if you're planning on being a rogue, swashbuckler, or something similar to that. To get to those late levels where you get penalised for not having gear, you need to survive the earlier levels.

Your body shape sucks - get someone to graft some arms onto you once you get enough wealth.

[H_H_F_F]

+0 from me, I think.

[Tusen]

I'm going to vote +0 as well. It's hard for me to remove the bias of the campaigns I normally play/host, in which the low str score and inevitably low int score would make this a -0, despite its high touch AC. I can imagine it would be good or possibly even worth +1 in very specific campaigns, so I'll go with +0.

[ff7hero]

Thing's also not exclusive to (monstrous) humanoids; out of core, pixies, for instance, have the same clause among their racial traits.

The problem is, as usual, WotC's bizarre organizational choices.

Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.

While the heading mentions "humanoids" the rule just uses the more general "creatures."

+0 for the fire bugs seems fine.

[Socksy]

The problem is, as usual, WotC's bizarre organizational choices.

While the heading mentions "humanoids" the rule just uses the more general "creatures."

Alright, but I'm not using anything more time-consuming than linear interpolation to calculate how much XP a level something-and-a-quarter creature gets from an encounter. In fact, we might be able to avoid that altogether. For this reason I vote LA +0.75 instead of LA +1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.

What about a celestial shrieker?

They've got verbal components covered pretty well.

[Debatra]

-0 - GreatWyrmGold, Metastachydium, Ripptor
+0 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, PoeticallyPsyco, Thurbane, H_H_F_F, Tusen, ff7hero
+1 - ciopo, loky1109, Socksy

A surprising +0* for the Ember Spawn. Next up is the Xag-Az Energon.

...Which probably won't be coming until later tonight or tomorrow. Things have been kind of piling up on me lately. Sorry about all the delays. I'd been intentionally waiting to call the vote here until I was ready to continue in case some new discussion happened, but it's been almost a week of nothing happening in this thread and I figured you guys would like at least some kind of update by now.

[Tzardok]

An energon of psychic energy. Well, why not. I'll try to see wether I can convert the 3.0 psionics into something more useful.

Edit: I offer as a conversion:

Psi-like abilities: At will - detect psionics, force screen (5 minutes, shield bonus +5*); 3/day - dismiss ectoplasm, dispell psionics, ego whip (DC 16). Manifester level 5th, save DC based on Cha.
*Augmentation already included.

[Beni-Kujaku]

An energon of psychic energy. Well, why not. I'll try to see wether I can convert the 3.0 psionics into something more useful.

Edit: I offer as a conversion:

Psi-like abilities: At will - detect psionics,force screen (5 minutes, shield bonus +5*); 3/day - dismiss ectoplasm,dispell psionics,ego whip (DC 16). Manifester level 5th, save DC based on Cha.
*Augmentation already included.

I really don't understand why we should "update" or more accurately convert attack/defense mode into actual Psi-like abilities. They're abilities that could only be used in very specific circumstances. It was only a very rare occurence in psionic v psionic combat, and was basically never used against nonpsionic characters. The abilities of the monster would not noticeably change by removing them. There's no reason to convert attack/defense modes.

Attack/defense modes are vastly different from their counterpart. Ego Whip dealt dexterity damage and could stun nonpsionic characters by reducing the DC by 8. Current ego whip deals Cha damage. Most of them also were at-will, and there's no reason or guideline to change that to make it more balanced. Defense modes are even worse, since they're just supposed to not be useable outside of Psionic Combat. If you allowed the defense modes to increase your will save or increase your defense, then you would have to convert nonpsionic buffer to give you even more save bonuses against psionic attacks. Psi-like and Psionic Combat were just two different systems that you can't merge without breaking one or the other. There's no way to convert attack/defense modes while keeping the spirit of it.

Attack/defense modes are supposed to be very rarely used, and designed to not really work against nonpsionic opponents. As such, they don't affect the overall power level of the creature. On the other hand, giving any psionic creature an at-will 2nd-level power (in Ego Whip's case, since it seems like it is the "standard" attack mode) definitely changes it, changes the way they fight and should change their CR. Converting attack/defense modes would have unintended consequences that will affect our rating here, and go against most of what we're doing here, which is to rate monsters as written, except considering asterisks (which just remove abilities, they do not change them). The whole point of it is to reduce our arbitrary involvement to the minimum. Updating attack/defense modes to random half-equivalent psi-like powers would be the exact opposite of that.

[Tzardok]

Three very simple reasons:

1. Because they were updated in most creatures in the XPH.
2. Because psionics in 3.0 were often underpowered, and this gives the creature a power boost.
3. Because why not?

[Debatra]

If there was a consistent way Attack/Defense was updated, we could extrapolate it similarly to how we do damage reduction. But there really doesn't seem to be.

[Tzardok]

True. My conversion was only a suggestion. I think I'm going to use that from now on, until I see one I like better.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I really don't understand why we should "update" or more accurately convert attack/defense mode into actual Psi-like abilities. They're abilities that could only be used in very specific circumstances. It was only a very rare occurence in psionic v psionic combat, and was basically never used against nonpsionic characters. The abilities of the monster would not noticeably change by removing them. There's no reason to convert attack/defense modes.

Attack/defense modes are vastly different from their counterpart. Ego Whip dealt dexterity damage and could stun nonpsionic characters by reducing the DC by 8. Current ego whip deals Cha damage. Most of them also were at-will, and there's no reason or guideline to change that to make it more balanced. Defense modes are even worse, since they're just supposed to not be useable outside of Psionic Combat. If you allowed the defense modes to increase your will save or increase your defense, then you would have to convert nonpsionic buffer to give you even more save bonuses against psionic attacks. Psi-like and Psionic Combat were just two different systems that you can't merge without breaking one or the other. There's no way to convert attack/defense modes while keeping the spirit of it.

Attack/defense modes are supposed to be very rarely used, and designed to not really work against nonpsionic opponents. As such, they don't affect the overall power level of the creature. On the other hand, giving any psionic creature an at-will 2nd-level power (in Ego Whip's case, since it seems like it is the "standard" attack mode) definitely changes it, changes the way they fight and should change their CR. Converting attack/defense modes would have unintended consequences that will affect our rating here, and go against most of what we're doing here, which is to rate monsters as written, except considering asterisks (which just remove abilities, they do not change them). The whole point of it is to reduce our arbitrary involvement to the minimum. Updating attack/defense modes to random half-equivalent psi-like powers would be the exact opposite of that.

I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 anything.

This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.

[jindra34]

I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 anything.

This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.

Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm baffled by this whole post, because it's mostly rephrasing the reasons I think 3.0 attack/defense modes need to be updated. They just don't work in the context of 3.5 psionics, or 3.5 anything.

This is, of course, countered by the fact that I don't know if there's any way to update them to 3.5.

My point was that they're separate from anything 3.5‚ and that updating them as Psi-like (or as anything else I can think of‚ but PLA is the most intuitive one) would make no sense and lose the original theme and purpose. Better to discard them entirely than arbitrarily modify monsters like that.

[Debatra]

Xag-Az Energon

Size & Type: Medium Outsider (Incorporeal)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 5, 10 (Large)
Speed: Fly 20' (Perfect) (The article says 30', but this is presumably including its Speed of Thought feat)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +8 - Net +14, one penalty
Natural Armor: N/A (ChaMod to Deflection)
Natural Weapons: Four Primary Incorporeal Touches (1d6), OR One Primary Energy Ray (1d8)
Skill List: Diplomacy, Hide, Search, Sense Motive, Spot
Body Shape: Squid-like
Speech (Languages): They "do not speak". It doesn't say they can't, but...
CR: 5
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

So what's the range on that Energy Ray? Who knows. What about the type of damage it deals? Doesn't say that either, but it's implied that it can be of any of the five main energy types.

Five times per day, it can charge one of its natural attacks to deal an additional 2d8+6 damage of any of the main five energy types. If it hits zero HP, its body explodes and deals 1d8+6 damage of a random energy type to everything within 20', with a Reflex save for half that is either a flat DC16, or is Charisma-based. This explosion also destroys the Xag-Az's body.

If it comes into contact with either a Xeg-Yi or a Xag-Ya, it is transported to a random location on the Astral plane, while the other creature is sent to a random location on a random plane. Fortunately, those creatures tend to flee from a Xag-Az if possible.

Finally, you have a few PLAs, each at ML15: At-Will Detect Psionics, and 3/day Dismiss Ectoplasm and Negate Psionics.

Not a great body type, but four natural weapons gives us at least something to work with.

[danielxcutter]

Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.

I would not be surprised at all, considering what I've heard about the Astral Construct nerf, but could you elaborate? I really don't understand 3.0e psionics enough.