The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[loky1109]

I think ray should be 30 ft range as for other energons.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Incorporeal Outsider is really a great type/subtype combination. Plus‚ you have 4 touch attacks for sneak attacks. The at-will PLA is just cherry on top. I think I would play that with LA+0. Maybe even +1 but the poor body shape prevents me from voting that.

Daniel‚ 3.0 psionics were the ability for a psionic character to lock themselves in a battle of minds with a psionic character. By a standard‚ you choose one of your attack mode‚ the opponent chooses one of their defense modes (without knowing about the other's choice). Using a two-entry table‚ each defense gave a -5 to +4 modifier to Saving Throw against the attack and some "ability damage reduction". If the attacked guy fails their save‚ they take a few ability damage‚ reduced by the chosen defense. If you use it on a non-psionic character‚ they are dazed for a few rounds instead‚ but they get +8 to their save‚ except if the opponent was using Mind Blast (one attack mode mostly reserved for illithidae)‚ in which case they get -4 to their save instead.

[danielxcutter]

That does not sound well thought-out at all.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That does not sound well thought-out at all.

And on top of that, it was almost never worth it, since your DC is set by a flat 1d20+ability score modifier (the specific ability score depends on the chosen attack mode, none of them being Con), which means even against low-Will psionic characters (already there are not a lot), you generally had a lower-than-50% chance that the attack would affect them. And that's not even counting the fact that each attack mode affects a different ability score. If you wanted to lower the opponent's dexterity to 0, you would have to choose the same attack mode 3 to 4 turns in a row, allowing any psionic character to just choose the appropriate defense mode after the first round, making your attacks even more useless. That's easily the worst part of an already pretty ill-designed book, and it's a relief they completely cut it out from EPH.

To note: Characters with levels in psionic classes could also use attack/defense modes, but they had to pay power points for them. So the 3.0 psion, already one of the most MAD classes in all of d&d, had to expend daily resources to be allowed to be useless. Great. All-around great.

[meschlum]

That does not sound well thought-out at all.

It's inherited content from earlier editions, with psionic attack / defense modes going all the way back to 1e, though the MAD component comes from 2e. I'm not sure it was ever well thought out.

1e: any character could be psionic (random roll, high mental attributes helped, odds were in the single digit percentiles) but it was rare. If psionic, you got random attack defense modes, a random power (some awesome, some terrible), and random PP. Being psionic meant you could participate in psionic combat, spending PP to attack and defend. Defenders lost PP depending on the attack and defense modes involved. The thing is, because you spent PP to defend, using the more powerful defenses that reduced damage more was sometimes a bad idea - the defense cost more than the damage you'd take! Ultimately, it was a war of attrition, with the higher PP score winning. If you were psionic and out of PP, you lost hit points instead (with saves vs death thrown on), so you died fast. PP recovery was slow, of course. And some monster categories (e.g. Demons) were always psionic - so a psionic character facing half a dozen demons was dead - she might kill the first one or two, but then she'd be out of PP...

2e: psionicist was introduced as a class, with MAD all over the place as using powers required attribute rolls, depending on the power (and results for critical success / failure). Psionicists have a favored discipline which represents the vast majority of their powers and can gain access to other disciplines as they level up - all powers have a discipline, so if you're facing a low level telepath, you know he's not going to use telekinesis. Attack and defense modes are present, but involve saves rather than PP loss. The notion of psionic contact is established - if your attacks succeed, you get access to your target's mind and can do things to them (if you have PP left and are a telepath). Since every psionic entity has attack / defense modes but not all are telepaths, it's necessary to add consequences for being attacked without a defense - hence the saves (which were different depending on whether you were psionic or not).

3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).

3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.

[Beni-Kujaku]

3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).

3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.

Psionic contact is referenced here and there as the way every Telepathy psionic power works ("Telepathy: Powers that allow mental contact and control of other sentient creatures"), and is kind of implied to be how all [Mind-affecting] powers work, since there is one power in PH (Control Body) mentioning "Control body doesn't require mental contact with the subject.", but nothing substantial here.

The most important occurence of mental contact in 3.X is the mental contact between psions or between a psion and a Power Stone, allowing the two to share powers known.

[remetagross]

The Xag-Az is a good monster. Not too shabby ability modifiers, including a non-ability to dump a low number into. Incorporeality, but not from being undead: that means you still have a reasonable number of HPs and a reasonable Fort save. 5 Outsider HDs are great and party make up for the -4 Int. 4 touch attacks are terrific for SAs, as already mentioned by Beni-Kujaku. Perfect flight speed.

The annoying body shape and the fact you'd need incorporeal equipment of some sort makes me feel this is worth maybe LA+1, not much more than that.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm wondering if we are updating Negate Psionics to Dispel Psionics. Both are clearly supposed to be psionic versions of Dispel Magic, but the 3.5 version can be augmented, and reaches an equivalent manifester level of +20 for ML 15, compared to the capped +10 of Negate Psionics. Having the equivalent of Greater Dispel Magic instead of the equivalent of Dispel Magic would probably make me vote for +1 instead, so I'd like to know what we're doing here.

[Temotei]

I'll vote +1 regardless.

[Tzardok]

I'm wondering if we are updating Negate Psionics to Dispel Psionics. Both are clearly supposed to be psionic versions of Dispel Magic, but the 3.5 version can be augmented, and reaches an equivalent manifester level of +20 for ML 15, compared to the capped +10 of Negate Psionics. Having the equivalent of Greater Dispel Magic instead of the equivalent of Dispel Magic would probably make me vote for +1 instead, so I'd like to know what we're doing here.

The manifester level of psi-like abilities in 3.0 is apparantly very often massively inflated because it doesn't actually make a difference. Therefore I think that a conversion into 3.5 would also need to change the ML. In my conversion I used ML 5th.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Here's the big thing to consider about the 3.0 psionic attack/defense modes: They only existed to give the DM the option to hose psionic PCs with their appropriate monsters if they felt like it. Like just cutting them is the most honest conversion given how little most of the classes interacted with them. Psionic combat was a poorly thought out, spiteful mechanic. Its best to just leave it dead.

My point was that they're separate from anything 3.5‚ and that updating them as Psi-like (or as anything else I can think of‚ but PLA is the most intuitive one) would make no sense and lose the original theme and purpose. Better to discard them entirely than arbitrarily modify monsters like that.

I will acknowledge that I don't know much about 3.0 psionics, but attack/defense modes seem like a basic part of the psionic system. The original theme and purpose, aside from possible Gygaxian cruelty, seems to be "This is a psionic monster that fights with its brain". If I'm not wrong about that, it seems like there should be some kind of psi-like ability to replace them.

Aside from the small fact that nothing in 3.5 psionics matches up cleanly to attack/defense modes.

Daniel‚ 3.0 psionics were the ability for a psionic character to lock themselves in a battle of minds with a psionic character. By a standard‚ you choose one of your attack mode‚ the opponent chooses one of their defense modes (without knowing about the other's choice). Using a two-entry table‚ each defense gave a -5 to +4 modifier to Saving Throw against the attack and some "ability damage reduction". If the attacked guy fails their save‚ they take a few ability damage‚ reduced by the chosen defense. If you use it on a non-psionic character‚ they are dazed for a few rounds instead‚ but they get +8 to their save‚ except if the opponent was using Mind Blast (one attack mode mostly reserved for illithidae)‚ in which case they get -4 to their save instead.

And on top of that, it was almost never worth it, since your DC is set by a flat 1d20+ability score modifier (the specific ability score depends on the chosen attack mode, none of them being Con), which means even against low-Will psionic characters (already there are not a lot), you generally had a lower-than-50% chance that the attack would affect them. And that's not even counting the fact that each attack mode affects a different ability score. If you wanted to lower the opponent's dexterity to 0, you would have to choose the same attack mode 3 to 4 turns in a row, allowing any psionic character to just choose the appropriate defense mode after the first round, making your attacks even more useless. That's easily the worst part of an already pretty ill-designed book, and it's a relief they completely cut it out from EPH.

To note: Characters with levels in psionic classes could also use attack/defense modes, but they had to pay power points for them. So the 3.0 psion, already one of the most MAD classes in all of d&d, had to expend daily resources to be allowed to be useless. Great. All-around great.

It's inherited content from earlier editions, with psionic attack / defense modes going all the way back to 1e, though the MAD component comes from 2e. I'm not sure it was ever well thought out.

1e: any character could be psionic (random roll, high mental attributes helped, odds were in the single digit percentiles) but it was rare. If psionic, you got random attack defense modes, a random power (some awesome, some terrible), and random PP. Being psionic meant you could participate in psionic combat, spending PP to attack and defend. Defenders lost PP depending on the attack and defense modes involved. The thing is, because you spent PP to defend, using the more powerful defenses that reduced damage more was sometimes a bad idea - the defense cost more than the damage you'd take! Ultimately, it was a war of attrition, with the higher PP score winning. If you were psionic and out of PP, you lost hit points instead (with saves vs death thrown on), so you died fast. PP recovery was slow, of course. And some monster categories (e.g. Demons) were always psionic - so a psionic character facing half a dozen demons was dead - she might kill the first one or two, but then she'd be out of PP...

2e: psionicist was introduced as a class, with MAD all over the place as using powers required attribute rolls, depending on the power (and results for critical success / failure). Psionicists have a favored discipline which represents the vast majority of their powers and can gain access to other disciplines as they level up - all powers have a discipline, so if you're facing a low level telepath, you know he's not going to use telekinesis. Attack and defense modes are present, but involve saves rather than PP loss. The notion of psionic contact is established - if your attacks succeed, you get access to your target's mind and can do things to them (if you have PP left and are a telepath). Since every psionic entity has attack / defense modes but not all are telepaths, it's necessary to add consequences for being attacked without a defense - hence the saves (which were different depending on whether you were psionic or not).

3.0e: inherited the 2e paradigm and tried to copy it into the 3e paradigm. A few new things are added as well, of course, but the attack / defense modes are essentially ported over (not sure what happened to psionic contact).

3.5e: attack / defense modes are now normal powers. Psionic contact is gone.

On one hand, if AD&D psionics was tweaked to be less unbalanced and frustrating, it could probably make a decent core mechanic for another RPG. But it wasn't integrated well with D&D's core mechanics, and was also unbalanced and frustrating.



Right, monsters. The four incorporeal touches are pretty good. (Outsiders don't qualify for Rapidstrike, so I guess it doesn't matter whether that counts as two pairs of natural weapons.) The xag-az would make a pretty decent rogue; it has more chances to sneak attack than all but the highest-level dual-wielders, can reposition for optimal flanking without much risk, and has the Charisma to convince people to not freak out about the disembodied energy eyeballs.

The only real downside is that the xag-az is largely incapable of interacting with the physical world. This means no equipment, no lockpicking, and no juggling. Your noncombat abilities are gonna be pretty much nonexistent if you can't secure a reliable source of mage hand or something. Oh yeah, and if you don't pick up Vow of Poverty or something, you're gonna fall behind as your party members accumulate more and more magical toys.

A xag-az with one level of rogue would have four 2d6 sneak touch attacks, compared to a 7th-level human rogue's one ~5d6 attack. The human probably has a better Reflex save and HP, but slightly worse Fort/Will saves. The human also has a bunch of handy secondary abilities, like evasion and uncanny dodge and thumbs...but the xag-az is incorporeal...but the human can use magic items...

I could see arguments for +1 or +2.

[loky1109]

+1 sounds good for me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yeah, +1 may be better

[Socksy]

I definitely wouldn't have thought that was Medium from the art.

I'm really not sure how to rate this one. Probably a +1 for the same reasons I voted the last monster as a +1.

[Debatra]

Okay guys, can we take the extended attack/defense mode discussion to its own thread please? We're getting a little off-topic.

[Remuko]

Okay guys, can we take the extended attack/defense mode discussion to its own thread please? We're getting a little off-topic.

im not into that debate but idk if its off topic. its kinda important in how we rate creatures with such things.

Also Im putting my vote for +0 for the current monster. not a weak +0 by any means but im not feeling it as a +1

[Debatra]

The votes so far, with a week of inactivity.

+0 - Beni-Kujaku, , Remuko
+1 - remetagross, Temotei, loky1109, Socksy

So a +1 here, and next on the docket is the Entomanothrope template. Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

[Debatra]

Entomanothrope Template

Acquired or Inherited: Either
Applied To: Any Humanoid or Giant
Size & Type: Gain Shapechanger subtype. Size unchanged in normal or Hybrid form, varies in Vermin form.
Space/Reach: Normal for size
Hit Dice: Add base Vermin to your own, calculate HP with the higher Con mod. If this results in any ability score increases, the extra points can not be put into Int.
Speed: Unchanged in normal form, Hybrid uses base creature's land speed, if the base Vermin can fly, use the lower between Base creature's land speed and base Vermin's Fly speed for the Hybrid's Fly speed.
Ability Scores: In Normal Form: Int -2, Wis +2 - Net +0, one penalty. In Hybrid form, add physical ability modifiers based on the base Vermin's scores, using the normal rules. (So a Vermin with 14 Str means a +4 to Str in Hybrid form, etc.)
Armor Class: +2 Natural Armor in normal form, use the higher of the base creature's new NA or the base Vermin's in Hybrid and Vermin form.
Skills: Gain skill points as normal for the amount of Vermin RHD you gain. Maintain racial skill bonuses across forms.
CR: By class, modified by Vermin RHD gained.
WotC LA: +2 on top of the added RHD.
Our LA: +1 on top of the added RHD.

For reference, we gave Lycanthropes +1 across the board. These guys are basically just those, but for were-Vermin instead. You gain terrible RHD, you gain terrible default monster feats, and etc. Unless specified otherwise, use the normal rules for Lycanthropes but replace animals with vermin. Aside from afflicted Entomanothropes not being able to pass their curse on to others, there is no difference between natural and afflicted.

That said, you don't run the risk of becoming the Vermin's alignment, as they are usually mindless and have no particular morals. (Though it could be fun to roleplay as an Entomanothrope who slowly loses all care for the world around him, even if he doesn't go feral or lose himself completely.) Entomanothropes can be of any "monstrous" non-swarm vermin of up to one size category larger than itself, and may also assume a vermin form one size category smaller than the base creature in addition to the full-size form.

Your hybrid form retains any poison or acid attack possessed by the base vermin. Your hybrid form doesn't necessarily have a claw attack, though scorpions are mentioned as having them. Scorpion hybrids also can't cast spells requiring somatic components on top of all hybrids being unable to cast verbally. If your base vermin lacks a bite attack, so does your hybrid form, though it gains whatever Primary natural weapon your base vermin does have.

You have DR 5/silver in hybrid and vermin form, as well as 60' Darkvision and immunity to mind-affecting in all forms. Instead of merely being able to empathize with them as Lycanthropes do, Entomanothropes can flat-out command vermin of their type (of any size) as if they were using a Command Undead spell on a mindless undead. This affects vermin of up to double your HD and lasts an hour.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:
Centipede, Scorpion, Spider
Crab, Diving Spider (Stormwrack)
Redspotted Centipede and Abyssal spiders (Dungeon 84)
Toebiter (Web)

Among all of these, only the toebiter is an actual insect, which makes the name of the template completely wrong, but fits ironically well with lycanthrope being used to designate any shapechanging animal-man (the actual term should have been therianthrope, of course).
Also, none of them has the ability to fly, which makes that part of the template superfluous. And the vast majority of them is god-awful, with almost no interesting ability or at least 5 to 10 HD to pay for it. I think the best shapes are the Small Monstrous Crab and the Small Monstrous Spider. The crab gives you Improved Grab on two claws, while the spider gives you the ability to spin webs, which scales with your level, so it's not completely moot, and Weapon Finesse. The ability scores are awful, but the mind-affecting immunity is really great, and the ability to control vermin is good if situational. I think it averages out compared to the better lycanthrope forms. I vote LA +1.

[remetagross]

Yeah, I guess the main takeaway here is the immunity to mind-affecting effects in all situations. The rest is mostly meh, but for that alone an LA+1 is deserved.

[danielxcutter]

Y'know, these things would be good for making Hollow Knight character expys.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Y'know, these things would be good for making Hollow Knight character expys.

Nails are one-handed martial weapons dealing 1d8 damage. Needles are one-handed Finesse exotic weapons dealing 1d8 piercing and triple reach. Whatever Gray Mourner has is a two-handed weapon dealing 2d6.

[Remuko]

no flying forms legal for the template? if that small list is truly the only list of legal forms this seems butt. i dont think its worth any LA on top of the racial HD you get. +0 maybe even -0

[Debatra]

Well, the article uses a giant wasp as an example for determining the hybrid form's Fly speed; so either it's another case of WotC examples being wrong or it doesn't literally have to be a creature with the word "monstrous" in the name.

"The entomanothrope takes on characteristics of some monstrous vermin (not swarms) no more than one size category larger than the base creature (referred to as the base vermin)."

[Inevitability]

Might 'monstrous vermin' be taken to mean 'vermin that are monsters', as opposed to background flies and leeches and stuff? It's weird, but WoTC naming conventions are nothing if not weird.

Anyway, I think +1 is fine in both cases, 1 RHD 1 LA for mind-affecting immunity, some DR, an okayish alternate form, and possibly free Weapon Finesse isn't an awful deal. Maybe say it's +0 for alternate forms with 3+ (or even 2+?) RHD, if we want to get that fine-grained.

[LecternOfJasper]

Anyway, I think +1 is fine in both cases, 1 RHD 1 LA for mind-affecting immunity, some DR, an okayish alternate form, and possibly free Weapon Finesse isn't an awful deal. Maybe say it's +0 for alternate forms with 3+ (or even 2+?) RHD, if we want to get that fine-grained.

I tend to agree, even with the list being limited as suggested in the opening post. Getting all those goodies relatively early on and at mid levels is not bad assuming you're not a caster. Like, sure, the vermin HD isn't particularly useful, but +0 LA seems like it would be too great a deal either way, for the DR and mind-affecting immunity alone, especially on a fighter type.

[Thurbane]

Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:
Centipede, Scorpion, Spider
Crab, Diving Spider (Stormwrack)
Redspotted Centipede and Abyssal spiders (Dungeon 84)
Toebiter (Web)

Well, I think it's safe to say that was obviously not the intent of the author of the article, seeing as in the related article - also written by the template creator - one of the sample creatures is a Humanoid/Giant Wasp. I'd chalk it up to use of the slightly ambiguous term "monstrous vermin", which AFAIK, is not a defined game term.

Also, I'm voting LA +1, but could be argued higher.

[loky1109]

+1 or +0 for many-HD vermins.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That said, you don't run the risk of becoming the Vermin's alignment, as they are usually mindless and have no particular morals. (Though it could be fun to roleplay as an Entomanothrope who slowly loses all care for the world around him, even if he doesn't go feral or lose himself completely.)

Entomanothropes can be of any "monstrous" non-swarm vermin of up to one size category larger than itself, and may also assume a vermin form one size category smaller than the base creature in addition to the full-size form.

I just realized that there's nothing in the lycanthrope template that forbids you from picking, say, a bat swarm as the base animal. I mean, it's a Tiny Animal (Swarm), so you need to be a Small humanoid to pick up the template (or a Tiny humanoid, or a Diminutive giant, or whatever), but it's 100% legal!

Interesting that it only works on monstrous vermin and not giant vermin. It seems to be corroborated by the fact that only werespiders and werescorpions are mentioned. That means there are only eight kinds of monsters this template can be applied to:

-snip-

On one hand, that rule is obviously intended to just mean you can't have a wereswarm. On the other hand, that's not what they wrote. So however you look at it, a weregiantbee is as illegal as a wereratswarm is legal.


FWIW, I think we should rate the entomothrope template as if giant bees are legal, and lycanthropes as if rat swarms are illegal. Though I'm absolutely saving that wereswarm idea for some future villainous competition!

[Beni-Kujaku]

I just realized that there's nothing in the lycanthrope template that forbids you from picking, say, a bat swarm as the base animal. I mean, it's a Tiny Animal (Swarm), so you need to be a Small humanoid to pick up the template (or a Tiny humanoid, or a Diminutive giant, or whatever), but it's 100% legal!

The thing is, rules-wise, a bat-swarm can't bite you to transmit the lycanthropy, and in-universe, if a swarm of werebats bites you, then you just become a werebat, not a swarm of werebats (or a wereswarm of bats? A were of batswarms?). Even Curse of Lycanthropy (unintentionally) prevents it by putting the lower size limit to Small.

On one hand, that rule is obviously intended to just mean you can't have a wereswarm. On the other hand, that's not what they wrote. So however you look at it, a weregiantbee is as illegal as a wereratswarm is legal.
FWIW, I think we should rate the entomothrope template as if giant bees are legal, and lycanthropes as if rat swarms are illegal. Though I'm absolutely saving that wereswarm idea for some future villainous competition!

Honestly, at this point, might as well play a silthilar. Or a Worm that Walks, if you absolutely want to be gross.

Considering any kind of vermin really doesn't change much to my vote, but the Argent Spider makes me tick a bit. Does Blink Dog-like free action Dimension Slide make it worth 1 RHD+2 LA? Probably not, but I'm unsure.