Vecna stats and lore

[x3n0n]

Spoiler: Off topic, on truesight

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You're right that I was assuming that truesight cannot pierce heavy obscurement. To be frank I've never even seen anyone suggest that it might, after looking at the MM/SRD definition of truesight--what debate have you heard?

Truesight: A creature with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceives the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane.

Spoiler: truesight

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Debate was probably the wrong word. Agreed that the RAW is pretty clear that anything visually opaque other than magical darkness still provides heavy obscurement vs truesight. That said, I think one who hasn't read in detail might assume that truesight > blindsight > darkvision. (Rather than blindsight dealing with obscurement and truesight dealing with shapechanging and the Ethereal Plane.)

[Kane0]

I agree. That thought (or one similar) is what prompted me to post that other Basic Rules Cagematch thread. I think that forumites tend to drastically over-estimate the balance benchmarks that WotC is using. I doubt they have high-op, full-knowledge, tactical-hive-mind builds and parties in mind. I expect that their real balance point is more like what you mentioned about the AL party (but a bit better)--mostly PHB with a smattering of other stuff, inexpertly applied and with quirks and foibles. Not forum meta-chasing builds. Especially not ones built with full knowledge of the enemy's stat block and specialized for that one encounter only. Which is something we see too often on these forums.

Thirded. My yardstick is a party of random classes (used to be conveniently a d12 but now that Artificer has been added in) each with a random race that adds to their prime stat and random subclass. Feels somewhere in the middle between one extreme of evoker + champ + thief + life cleric and the other of four nuclear wizards or whatever. Maybe throw in a feat or two for good measure

[PattThe]

Demon Lords are smarter than vecna... huh.

[kazaryu]

It’s never my intention to harsh on a play style (I myself optimize to my own and other’s delight and consternation), but I don’t think this is the mindset devs should approach monster design with. There should not be a “hard mode” built into the basic assumptions of their design. The dragon of balance is already chased at one’s peril.

this isn't about a 'hardmode' this is about whether the vecna statblock is as dangerous as its supposed to be (cr26). if you're fighting a cr26 opponent....they should, by definition, be hardmode. its a monster that is, by itself, way above what the party should have diffictuly fighting. Now its important to note that upthread, i've come around to admitting that his damage output is much more deadly than i'd initially given it credit for. But even still...im not sure its enough.

A straight party of 4 with a few magic items of varying levels each, and built without feats on 27 points will generally have difficulty with this as is,

thing is...they really shouldn't. not at level 20. im not talking about optimized builds. obviously optimized shouldn't be the benchmark. thats why i said a basic fighter nova build. put it this way: a party of 4 needs to average 88 damage per character in the first round of combat, or 54 damger per turn in the first 2 rounds of combat to take him down. Those are really low benchmarks. thats not anywhere close to optimized levels of damage output. Now, it is true that vecna himself has the damage output to put a PC on the ground in a single turn. and if he hits with his dagger, that person is almost guaranteed to die without significant intervention. So its still a deadly encounter. But he's still strikes me as being really squishy for being a cr26 monster.

At the DMs discretion, any of his spells can be swapped out for AMF, Globe of Invulnerability, Shapechange, etc. and any additional prep beyond what’s described. Never forget, the first one you kill is a simulacrum.

well yeah, if you adjust the statblock to make him stronger then...he'll be stronger. thats not in doubt. like, i get that you can do it...but thats kinda meh as far as this discussion goes.

Classic Vecna would be some higher tier undead and I would not be surprised to see Planar Bound shadows or fiends or an acolyte Lich. Add as many as you like based on your party’s optimization level (or luck on treasure tables). Keep Vec’s dread counterspell for Banish attempts, fill the room with illusory structures he can see through to teleport behind but that eat party actions to study.

again, yeah, you can use the statblock given in a more deadly encounter. obviously. that doesn't mean that the given statblock is actually a cr26 (to be clear, my interest in this thread has been about seeing what others think about how dangerous this is. im not claiming that he's too squishy. Im saying that that was my initial impression, and im looking to see what others think).

I had a party take on Orcus and a buffed Lich with dozens of undead. They knew their stuff, played into their strengths and used their conserved resources expertly. The fight took 3 rounds, they freed the Lich from Orcus’ control and it fled, they Gated in Zariel, and the Paladin just wailed on Orcus.

This was after consecutive fights with a Nightwalker and platoon of wights, and a Ancient Dracolich and small army of zombies.

They’d eat this Vecna’s lunch and make him pay for the privilege of watching. But I also played in an AL party to level 20 to the end of Mad Mage. 7 players and 5 could not find their way out of a paper bag with a knife. It was fun, they were good with RP, but it would be a lie to say a lot of RP solutions weren’t sought because they were generally ineffective in combat. Bad tactical choices, no eye to actual character build, just leveled up and didn’t try to make effective use of new resources or features. They stuck to level 3 strategies well into the teens and often opted to upcast spells they knew the rules of instead of making use of higher level spells (5th level shatter... 5th level lightning bolt... I mean Wall of Force is right there).

This Vecna would have chewed them up and spit them out.

this is interesting...i wonder how common this is in actual play...This is the type of stuff im looking through this thread for because...yeah, upcasting damage spells is suuuper inefficient, generally. that said, i don't think statblocks should be designed around the assumption that players are going to ignore the features they get on level up. at the very least it should be assumed that players are competent enough to use their upgraded abilities.

[kbob]

There is also another point that I have not seen anyone make yet. If I overlooked, I apologize. Though I’m not a huge fan of this version of Vecna, for reasons I stated in an earlier post, I still believe this can give a level 20 party, at least not a highly optimized party, a good fight with a strong potential for killing a few characters. All of his abilities can have a way around them, including his unique reaction rules. However, if your players have seen his stats, then his advantage is lost. One should assume/insist that his/her players do not look at monster stats. This is something I insist on. If the players have never came across those abilities and you describe what he is doing with descriptive words of what their characters see/hear/feel, then I believe it would take most players a least a round or two before they even figure out what the heck is going on. Especially if you refrain from using phrases like “he uses his reaction to___.”
Instead, maybe something like, “as your power from your spell starts to discharge from your fingers, you feel it snuff out, as if someone blew out it’s candle. Immediately you see darkness and an agonizing flash in your minds eye. As your eyes regain their sight you surmise that your spell did not merely get countered but it somehow backlashed into your own psyche”
This allows them to draw their own conclusion.
“Oh wow, he must have a really powerful counterspell. At least he used his reaction though.”
When another player tries to cast something and it too is countered, they will, very possibly, assume that some other mechanic is at work here and fail to conclude, at least initially, that he has multiple reactions. I honestly don’t know if I would assume that. Use this same approach with his other abilities and a lot of the challenge is figuring out his MO. If the players already know his breakdown, like those commenting here, then a reasonably competent party will make short work of him in little to no time.
To give an example, I had a new player last year, who honestly is naturally tactical in the game and has proven to be pretty smart overall as he continued to play, came across his first troll ever. He got separated from the group due to a forced avalanche by the troll. The party had to take an alternate route (several rounds) to get to him. I did not allow them to talk to him as they did not see the troll in character. They were high enough level that any of the martial characters (he was a barbarian) could 1v1 the troll, though it would be a drain. The cool part was the fact he could not figure out, for a few rounds, why the troll was regenerating nor how to stop it. He eventually figured it out right as the party started making it to him. But there was panic in his eyes for a moment. He even apologized to me for not figuring it out sooner. I was like, “no no no! Please do not apologize! First off you did great! No need to apologize. Secondly, you will never experience this ever again as a player in DnD. Another character of yours may have to “figure it out” but YOU know now and your character will always somehow find a way or clue to “figure it out” sooner. Also, some of the tactics you used, you will most likely not use anymore or seem to learn quicker that it’s not as effective. Lastly, as a DM, I thoroughly enjoyed watching you as player be challenged by a classic DnD monster/problem and then you figuring it out on your own. I can’t remember the last time, if ever, someone gave me the honor to run that encounter like that. So please don’t apologize. I actually thank you cuz that was unique and rare and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope you did as well!” I’m sure that wasn’t an exact quote haha but that was pretty close. I awarded him xp for him solo killing the troll. He got a huge boost from that and he and all the other players loved it. Including myself. All that to say, if you run this version of Vecna, or any monster with unique abilities, part of the challenge is figuring it out. It’s not just combat (use the ol’ tried and true optimization tactics for high CR spell casters that get old and stale) but a puzzle to figure out why those tactics aren’t working here and what should we do differently to compensate?

[Hael]

Thirded. My yardstick is a party of random classes (used to be conveniently a d12 but now that Artificer has been added in) each with a random race that adds to their prime stat and random subclass. Feels somewhere in the middle between one extreme of evoker + champ + thief + life cleric and the other of four nuclear wizards or whatever. Maybe throw in a feat or two for good measure

The featless evoker + champ + thief + lifecleric is still plenty powerful for this encounter . Most DMs are going to hand out magic items over the course of a campaign, and probably strong ones at that if they are tier4. So things like staffs of power, and flametongues and oathbows and flying carpets. It really shouldn't be hard to procur mounts at this level as well.

A simulacrum of the oathbow fighter is pretty nasty. A shapechanged evoker, is pretty nasty... A lifecleric who uses conjure/summon celestial is plenty strong.

Yea ok, if the party goes in and doesn't know how to play the game after 20 lvls, then yea maybe this might be difficult, but the point is this doesn't really take any particularly unusual amount of optimization here.

An action surging featless lvl 20 champion with an oathbow will absolutely shred this thing.. Even with no feats hes doing about 187 dpr with action surge. So with just his contribution alone he probably kills Vecna on turn 2 assuming Vecna heals once.

[BerzerkerUnit]

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this is interesting...i wonder how common this is in actual play...This is the type of stuff im looking through this thread for because...yeah, upcasting damage spells is suuuper inefficient, generally. that said, i don't think statblocks should be designed around the assumption that players are going to ignore the features they get on level up. at the very least it should be assumed that players are competent enough to use their upgraded abilities.

I played 5e AL weekly for 5+ years with an even split of playing and DMing for the first 3 and mostly playing for the latter 2+

The impression I got from even the more experienced tables was this-
The overwhelming majority of players do not optimize in any way and most play sub-optimally due to lack of game mastery (new and/or young), a fear of being labeled (munchkin/rules lawyer), or an unwillingness to invest the time into cultivating that mastery (casual players/RP focused players etc).

Forumites, no matter how abundant, will forever be a fraction of a fraction of players at large. You go to your FLGS for an AL night, sit down at any table and ask if a Nuclear Wizard build is okay and you’ll probably be met with a complete lack of interest or knowledge. I’d bet the majority of DMs would probably hand waive any concern because the table sees one combat a night (one sometimes painfully long and slow combat as players forget they have features that can help them or pepper the DM with questions intended to give them some missing inspiration for a creative solution they think is better than stab and burn).

[Dork_Forge]

thats fair, 25 damge up front..or effectively up front. but thats still not a huge amount at this level. not when he's so squishy. if you're going to be as squishy as this statblock is, you need to be able to dish out a ton of damage. look at the solar for an example. 49 damage per hit. it has a decent chance of dropping a wizard/one of the squishier PC's in a single round of attacks. even at level 20. and with a 21 AC, even at advantage the PC"s have a decent chance to miss it. of course, its still squishy AF, especially if you drop magic weapon to the party (which i'd assume most DM's do). but compared to that, afterthought is really...not a big deal overall unless the fight can get drawn out.
[b]
He's going to do something else more impressive, then likely teleport to his target(s) with potential damage and healing attached, then attack twice with the dagger at a +13 to hit.

YES. sorry, i'd intended to circle back to the fact that afterthought isn't his primary damage source. my overall point was that afterthought by itself really isn't scary[/QUOTE]

The main thing about AF in my opinion is shutting down healing, but I think the main point you've mostly agreed with, but I'll summarise just in case:

Afterthought on it's own isn't terrifying to a 20th-level party, and it shouldn't be. It's part of a much larger action economy and comes with two attacks anyway. Making it even more damaging just knocks all of that other stuff through the roof.

Now this is actually a good point...for some reason i'd completely ignored/discounted rotten fates damage when i'd made my original post. 96 damage is pretty huge. and thats what you want out of a glass canon. essentially the ability to down a PC in a single round

In terms of damage he has it in buckets, and not even just single target. There's enough AOE mixed into him that all PCs should be concerned to varying degrees, especially if they get tagged by AF.

i mean, ranged attack nuke builds are both fairly common, and not largely affected by...anything he can do defensively. consider just a basic SS gloomstalker/fighter. on its first turn it can get up to 8 longbow attacks out with a +13 to-hit (+8 if using SS). that means they need to roll a 4 (9) or lower to miss. total potential damage is 10d8+40+80 damage and thats without considering their BA, or the fighter subclass. samurai could be attacking with advantage/trading advantage for a 9th attack. battlemaster could throw some extra dice on there in addition to fun effects like 'disarming' or 'trip (likely for the last attack since..ya know, prone isn't good for ranged)' or use 'precision attack' to ensure the attacks hit. if we're assuming no magic weapons then an EK could have precast magic weapon. either way, thats just 1 PC and even if they don't have a magic weapon thats already 1/4/-1/3 of vecnas HP gone. and since its a dex build its going to beat vecna's initiative more often than not.

I mean... your example ranged nuke build is entirely nerfed by him standing in their face, which he is capable of, and encouraged to do so. PCs have a non-zero chance of becoming Frightened by him, complicating things further.

I'm also going to throw out this as the first of many commentary on this: No, ranged nova builds are not fairly common. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that no commonly circulated build tropes here are common in the game as a whole.

next lets toss a second martial type character in there. say...a paladin. of course, mounted combat is weird, but in theory having a mount with a ton of movement would allow you to keep up with vecna's TPing. meaning you get your extra attack. combined with some means of getting a BA attack (TWF or PAM most likely) if 2 of your 3 attacks hit, thats a potential 14d8 (63) radiant damage on top of some amount of weapon damge (again, depending on how you're set up to fight). if you hit with 3 attacks thats another potential 7d8 (31) radiant damage. in fact, drop 2 levels in fighter as the paladin and thats 5 attacks you can potentially make. for 33d8(144) radiant damage, on top of whatever you can get from your actual weapon. of course, some of those attack will likely miss.

A Paladin that will likely have no, or next to no, Dex and a mount that will likely die very quickly. Then the terrain needs to be conducive to what is likely a large mount, and this one starts to run into the other problem:

He has no reason to stay there and take those hits. He gets hit once? He teleports out and damages the Paladin.

so thats 2 fairly non-optimized (by which i mean i've left design space open. like not choosing the vengeance subclass for the paladin so they have better accuracy...or the devotion paladin, so they can get much better accuracy. not specifically spelling out fighter subclass. things like that.), nova builds that can pretty regularly get their nova off on Vecna....and a significant nova it is given his low HP/AC. It also important to note, that im not expecting a single round victory. But 2 rounds, which is still fast enough that the ticking damage from after thought and the heal on his BA aren't really going to get much value against a good party.
but they're not explicitly required to. While remove curse, i agree would be iffy, this is exactly the type of thing greater restoration should be able to remove. greater restoration just wasn't written when this feature existed. i'd wager that many DM's would allow it. if there's no way to stop it other than the con save, thats pretty bul****.

He's a CR 26 creature and infamous in D&D history, how is making the save as the only way bull? If one of his major threat considerations could be neutered by a 5th level spell, that would be pretty lame.

A 2 round victory from a nova party is probably reasonable. However, I'd argue you're not finding a composition like that on average, and the entire reason the Book of Vile Darkness is inside him is to act as a difficulty slider.

with all that being said, as i alluded to earlier, i actually agree. for some reason i wasn't thinking about how much damage rotten fate did. he's still squishy. but he does put out enough damage to justify it. and with his Regen, if he *does* manage to survive the first couple of turns, when most of the Nova is likely to happen...well. well then he becomes an incredibly threat. Obviously as party resources are spent, their DPR falls...which increases the value of his self heal.

You also have to consider the state of the party when they fight him, impossible to know for sure, but you don't put a fresh party against a single creature. It's unrealistic and almost always just going to go the player's way.

There's zero reason he shouldn't have a sizeable horde, he's an infamous necromancer and can cast Animate Dead as single action.

What level range (the homebrew adventure is for 3-4 lvl 20 characters), what sort of magic items are we allowed, and what level of optimization?

You want to actually propose something, let's say:

-level 20
-a realistic composition
-no build considerations for him specifically
-mediumish optimisation, no cheese builds like Magic Missile novas
-Assume magic weapons for martial, no bonuses, they just count as magical.

I suspect it will be relatively difficult to find a party of 4 mid tier4 characters (with appropriate tier4 gear) that will struggle here, unless you really go out of your way to produce something that's hard countered by the statblock, like a bunch of half or third casters who lack appropriate dpr (eg things like alchemist artificers, monster slayer rangers etc). I don't think much optimization is really necessary either (unlike the Tiamat thread, where we had to make do with only 4 lvl 13 characters with no magic items).. Generic things like action surging fighters/ divine smiting paladins/ raging barbarians and disintegrating wizards is all that's really required here.

Then by all means propose something, this is a much worse fight than Tiamat.

A level 20 party should have no problem in taking him down, a good archer would have 0 problems to do it. By the nature of his teleport he has to put himself in danger quite often if he want to trigger his hp recovery.
I really don't see him lasting over 2 rounds against a level 20 party.

An archer in a featureless plain that can kite him, huh?

Being next to the archer is a downside for the archer, not Vecna...

"Behind cover" is tricky, would only work if the archer were at the wrong angle, because he must teleport to a space he can see.

Honestly, it looks to me like an Eversmoking Bottle would neuter practically all of Vecna's defenses, since so much is tied to things he can see. Just stay 20' away from the edges of the cloud nearest to Vecna.

At the risk of repeating myself: this "Vecna" stat block makes a better Kaz than a Vecna.

He has access to Dimension Door, he can teleport pretty much where he likes in the combat.

Dropping a fat patch of smoke is going to be a disadvantage to everyone.

Demon Lords are smarter than vecna... huh.

That shouldn't really be surprising, at this point he isn't a god, just a really powerful lich, he's still breaking the mortal limits. Demon Lords are basically low-level gods.

this isn't about a 'hardmode' this is about whether the vecna statblock is as dangerous as its supposed to be (cr26). if you're fighting a cr26 opponent....they should, by definition, be hardmode. its a monster that is, by itself, way above what the party should have diffictuly fighting. Now its important to note that upthread, i've come around to admitting that his damage output is much more deadly than i'd initially given it credit for. But even still...im not sure its enough.

He's going to be absolutely terrifying to most parties, even at that level. Its only in the forum mindset, looking at his statblock in isolation that he doesn't seem scary to some folks.

thing is...they really shouldn't. not at level 20. im not talking about optimized builds. obviously optimized shouldn't be the benchmark. thats why i said a basic fighter nova build. put it this way: a party of 4 needs to average 88 damage per character in the first round of combat, or 54 damger per turn in the first 2 rounds of combat to take him down. Those are really low benchmarks. thats not anywhere close to optimized levels of damage output. Now, it is true that vecna himself has the damage output to put a PC on the ground in a single turn. and if he hits with his dagger, that person is almost guaranteed to die without significant intervention. So its still a deadly encounter. But he's still strikes me as being really squishy for being a cr26 monster

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When would you ever use Vecna as s single monster encounter, and the only encounter of the day? And if the PCs are saving nova resources for said encounter, how rough are they going to be getting to him?

The example adventure is pretty decent for the most part I think (I'd rather he have some minions) and it would be rough to go through blind, real rough.

well yeah, if you adjust the statblock to make him stronger then...he'll be stronger. thats not in doubt. like, i get that you can do it...but thats kinda meh as far as this discussion goes.
again, yeah, you can use the statblock given in a more deadly encounter. obviously. that doesn't mean that the given statblock is actually a cr26 (to be clear, my interest in this thread has been about seeing what others think about how dangerous this is. im not claiming that he's too squishy. Im saying that that was my initial impression, and im looking to see what others think).

He has a damage slider built literally into him, so I think they were trying to strike a balance with most players and more combat-focused/competent ones.

I had a party take on Orcus and a buffed Lich with dozens of undead. They knew their stuff, played into their strengths and used their conserved resources expertly. The fight took 3 rounds, they freed the Lich from Orcus’ control and it fled, they Gated in Zariel, and the Paladin just wailed on Orcus.

This was after consecutive fights with a Nightwalker and platoon of wights, and a Ancient Dracolich and small army of zombies.
this is interesting...i wonder how common this is in actual play...This is the type of stuff im looking through this thread for because...yeah, upcasting damage spells is suuuper inefficient, generally. that said, i don't think statblocks should be designed around the assumption that players are going to ignore the features they get on level up. at the very least it should be assumed that players are competent enough to use their upgraded abilities.

Players will do all kinds of stuff that forumites would disagree with, and upcasting spells is fairly common IMO. Like using Fireball for a blasting spell against one or two enemies. Is it inefficient in the grand scheme of how we analyze the game? Probably, but it's what feels right to most PCs and they tend to come out just fine.

Here are some common upcasting cases from my ongoing games (currently overpowered for their levels 10 and 14):

-Paladin upcasting Cure Wounds with their action on still up PCs

- Druid upcasting Healing Word

- Upcasting scorching ray with no damage riders

- Upcasting Call Lightning

The featless evoker + champ + thief + lifecleric is still plenty powerful for this encounter . Most DMs are going to hand out magic items over the course of a campaign, and probably strong ones at that if they are tier4. So things like staffs of power, and flametongues and oathbows and flying carpets. It really shouldn't be hard to procur mounts at this level as well.

Hand out magic items? Sure. Oathbows, Flying carpets and staffs of power? Yeah I wouldn't get your hopes up, especially playing modules. If you're playing modules and running stock magic items thena lot of builds people like aren't getting magic weapons, because longsword dominate the category.

A simulacrum of the oathbow fighter is pretty nasty. A shapechanged evoker, is pretty nasty... A lifecleric who uses conjure/summon celestial is plenty strong.

Yea ok, if the party goes in and doesn't know how to play the game after 20 lvls, then yea maybe this might be difficult, but the point is this doesn't really take any particularly unusual amount of optimization here.

An action surging featless lvl 20 champion with an oathbow will absolutely shred this thing.. Even with no feats hes doing about 187 dpr with action surge. So with just his contribution alone he probably kills Vecna on turn 2 assuming Vecna heals once.

Oh only an Oathbow Champion? Just a weapon that deals an additional 3d6 per hit on a class that can crank out 8 attacks? Come on.

And a simulacrum that survives getting to Vecna in good health and resources? I really, really doubt it.

-----------------------------------------

Here's some food for thought for you all:

Consider playing a campaign with whatever you just wanted to play. You have no idea what Vecna can do, absolutely nothing and go into him as your end game fight.

You know he's a famous lich, so you're thinking, okay. Undead arch mage, we can deal.

The moment he smacks a character with his big attack, that player will pee a little. When he then unloads with the teleport and dagger, the player will be confused and think they'll go down. When they find out that they can't heal until they save, they'll resign themselves to swift death.

When the party at large find out he has multiple reactions per round they'll panic a little.

When the casters discover that he has Counterspell, that can't be countered, has no range limit and does damage? They will be scared.

The notion that you're going into this encounter, an unrealistic encounter IMO if he's alone and you're healthy, as confident 2 (maybe 3) rounds is incredibly unrealistic and indicative of a forum echochamber looking at a statblock in a whiteroom.

[Unoriginal]

I'm off the books right now, but isn't a solo CR 26 monster supposed to be a Medium encounter for a group of 4-5 lvl 20 PCs?

[stoutstien]

I'm off the books right now, but isn't a solo CR 26 monster supposed to be a Medium encounter for a group of 4-5 lvl 20 PCs?

The scale really breaks down after lv 15. Its deadly by the exp count but circumventing even 1 feature will probably drop it to medium or easy.

[Unoriginal]

The scale really breaks down after lv 15. Its deadly by the exp count but circumventing even 1 feature will probably drop it to medium or easy.

So dangerous, but still an encounter difficulty the lvl 20 group is estimated as able to face several times in an adventuring day?

[Dante]

I'm off the books right now, but isn't a solo CR 26 monster supposed to be a Medium encounter for a group of 4-5 lvl 20 PCs?

No, you're thinking of CR 20 (25,000 XP).

CR 26 is 90,000 XP, whereas the Deadly threshold is anything at or over 50,800 XP. The daily budget is 160,000 XP, so you could fit in a couple of Hard fights (34,000-50,799 XP) or about three Mediums, before or after Vecna.

So dangerous, but still an encounter difficulty the lvl 20 group is estimated as able to face several times in an adventuring day?

Nope. Even two Vecnas in a row would be 180,000 XP, which is over budget.

[Rukelnikov]

As most creatures published, I'm usually under the assumption that it is balanced for a no MC, no feats game. Even then Vecna may not be awe inspiring, but its a bit more of a threat.

[Hael]

Oh only an Oathbow Champion? Just a weapon that deals an additional 3d6 per hit on a class that can crank out 8 attacks? Come on.

And a simulacrum that survives getting to Vecna in good health and resources? I really, really doubt it.
-----------------------------------------

Eh, i picked one possible strong magic item that trivializes the encounter for effect. There are many like that (flametongue + mount etc). A longbow+2, SS and foresight does the same sort of thing in a game with feats.

Even without feats you can recreate the effect in bulk with minionmancy. A wish’d simulacrum of the champion. Upcast summons from the wizard are going to both be doing ~45+ dpr per turn. The thief actually gets pretty major burst on round1. Disintegrate by the wizard. sunburst by the cleric. All of these things are going to quite trivially go through Vecnas relatively low hp total really fast.

On the flipside If you do a little math, its hard to really have Vecna causing problems to the parties health pool until round 3 at the earliest. Rotten fate is the only big damage ability he has, so lets assume he focus fires something. He will need to hit with the full failed save ability at least twice, and we can assume there are deathwards in play, at least on the squishiest allies. So round 3 is when he might cause an issue to one party member (assuming they aren’t hit with a heal spell).

Meanwhile his only CC is trivialized by a 6th lvl spell (which the cleric gets at lvl 11) and dominate monster is going to be at disadvantage.

To make this statblock challenging, a DM will need to grant Vecna a pretty significant screening force of undead.

[kazaryu]

I played 5e AL weekly for 5+ years with an even split of playing and DMing for the first 3 and mostly playing for the latter 2+

The impression I got from even the more experienced tables was this-
The overwhelming majority of players do not optimize in any way and most play sub-optimally due to lack of game mastery (new and/or young), a fear of being labeled (munchkin/rules lawyer), or an unwillingness to invest the time into cultivating that mastery (casual players/RP focused players etc).

Forumites, no matter how abundant, will forever be a fraction of a fraction of players at large. You go to your FLGS for an AL night, sit down at any table and ask if a Nuclear Wizard build is okay and you’ll probably be met with a complete lack of interest or knowledge. I’d bet the majority of DMs would probably hand waive any concern because the table sees one combat a night (one sometimes painfully long and slow combat as players forget they have features that can help them or pepper the DM with questions intended to give them some missing inspiration for a creative solution they think is better than stab and burn).

well, there's a difference (IMO) between 'sub-optimal' and 'not really using your advanced abilities at all'. Obviously the vast majority of players aren't optimizers. I don't even focus on optimizing when i play. at least..not optimizing for effectiveness. i *will* optimize around other things. for example, my first character was optimized around carry weight, for no other reason than i thought it'd be funny. obviously doesnt take much to optimize carry weight. but still. That said, even if they're not optimizing, i would still assume that most players at least pay attention to/use the stuff they get on level up. and if not that, then at least balance should assume that.

The main thing about AF in my opinion is shutting down healing, but I think the main point you've mostly agreed with, but I'll summarise just in case:

Afterthought on it's own isn't terrifying to a 20th-level party, and it shouldn't be. It's part of a much larger action economy and comes with two attacks anyway. Making it even more damaging just knocks all of that other stuff through the roof.




In terms of damage he has it in buckets, and not even just single target. There's enough AOE mixed into him that all PCs should be concerned to varying degrees, especially if they get tagged by AF.

AT* but otherwise, yeah, we're largely agreed on this point. his damge output is high enough to counteract his squishiness.

I mean... your example ranged nuke build is entirely nerfed by him standing in their face, which he is capable of, and encouraged to do so. PCs have a non-zero chance of becoming Frightened by him, complicating things further.

not really..just take a step back. you'll take a hit from afterthought, but the damage itself isn't a major concerned compared to 'lets ****ing kill this MFer. and if he burns a reaction on an OA to deal a bit of damage to you, then thats one less reaction he has to counterspell/fell rebuke the other party members that might struggle more. the frightened condition is...a threat? but also super easy to remove as a threat, considering how relatively common fear immunity is (even without a paladin in the party).

I'm also going to throw out this as the first of many commentary on this: No, ranged nova builds are not fairly common. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that no commonly circulated build tropes here are common in the game as a whole.

the primary part of the nova build is the fighter levels. attack-action surge->attack. even someone that went straight 20 levels in champion fighter is going to be able to do that, and are going to put out good damage. they might not put the levels in gloomstalker for the extra bits of damage, that is true. but then they now have 2 action surges...might even be more optimal than the levels in gloomstalker...but then the gloomstalker can huntersmark/favored foe for an extra d6 per attack. so idk. point is, its not about optimizing, its pointing to builds that are on the stronger end of the spectrum, but lack the nuance that an actual optimized build would have (i.e. no elven accuracy, not choosing optimal subclasses, etc.). and i don't think thats unfair. I don't mind vecna struggling against something thats truly optimized. but against a build that is just kinda 'yeah, i wanted to make an archer so i went fighter and grabbed sharpshooter (because why wouldn't i as an archer).'

A Paladin that will likely have no, or next to no, Dex and a mount that will likely die very quickly. Then the terrain needs to be conducive to what is likely a large mount, and this one starts to run into the other problem:

He has no reason to stay there and take those hits. He gets hit once? He teleports out and damages the Paladin.

yes, the mount is likely to die quickly over the course of combat (especially if it gets caught in the AoE of multiple flight of the damned/vile teleport)...im talking about him getting nuked at the beginning. and most paladin mounts at that level can handle the damage for a round or 2, unless specifically targetted with something like rotten fate. as for teleporting away, thats why i mentioned the mount in the first place. he can only teleport 1. when he gets hit. and 2. onces per turn. plenty of mounts have more than enough speed to keep up with that.

He's a CR 26 creature and infamous in D&D history, how is making the save as the only way bull? If one of his major threat considerations could be neutered by a 5th level spell, that would be pretty lame.

well, for one, its bull because its against 5e design philosophy. and 2, because its boring. 'oh hey you're dying and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it but keep roling saves until you roll REALLY well, or until you're dead.

what makes it so lame for greater resto to fix it? its not one of his major threat considerations. not even close. either 1: the party wins in the first couple of rounds. or 2. the fight drags on and vecna gets more and more value out of his self heal. but under the latter conditions, the dagger damge and rotten fate/flight of the damned are going to be dealing WAY more damage than teh pseudo curse from the dagger. and if vecna targets the healers (as is suggested he would) then the dagger curse basically doesn't matter.

the biggest place where the anti-healing/damage from the dagger matters is after vecna has been temporarily sundered. at that point, not letting the party cure it just means that you're deflating their victory. super fun that is. Think of it this way. a single caster can cast greater restoaration a MAX of 7 times. and if they do, they're spending all of their big spell slots try to keep the party from bleeding to death, instead of putting extra damage on Vecna. or supporting the party in other ways with their high level spell slots (like casting holy weapon). and meanwhile all they're doing is trying to hold the tide against an effect that vecna can apply twice per round, at will. That isn't lame....thats a great balancing tool.

A 2 round victory from a nova party is probably reasonable. However, I'd argue you're not finding a composition like that on average, and the entire reason the Book of Vile Darkness is inside him is to act as a difficulty slider.



You also have to consider the state of the party when they fight him, impossible to know for sure, but you don't put a fresh party against a single creature. It's unrealistic and almost always just going to go the player's way.

There's zero reason he shouldn't have a sizeable horde, he's an infamous necromancer and can cast Animate Dead as single action.

sure, but im not talking about encounter design. obviously adding more enemies makes an encounter more deadly. i can make a fight with an Imp deadly if i give it enough underlings. that doesn't change the CR of the imp. im talking about whether vecna actually deserves teh cr26 rating, based on the statblock provided.

and im not sold he does. I definitely agree, now, that he deserves a greater than 20 CR though. so thats something.

[Unoriginal]

Some people have compared this Vecna to the Critical Role version, but honestly I've got the feeling this one would tear through end-of-campaign Vox Machina like a lightsaber through butter, if played without pulling punches.

[stoutstien]

So dangerous, but still an encounter difficulty the lvl 20 group is estimated as able to face several times in an adventuring day?

By the exp budget it wouldn't but like I said if you have the ability to say prevent his rotten fate then suddenly he's closer to CR 21 which is a massive drop. CR isn't that great of a tool past CR ~15. Too swingy

[Dante]

By the exp budget it wouldn't but like I said if you have the ability to say prevent his rotten fate then suddenly he's closer to CR 21 which is a massive drop. CR isn't that great of a tool past CR ~15. Too swingy

It's not even clear what the numbers are supposed to mean, past CR 20. There are no 26th level PCs so what's CR 26? The only part that matters is the 90,000 XP so why not just say that? CR: Super, 90,000 is more informative than "CR 26."

[Rafaelfras]

Some people have compared this Vecna to the Critical Role version, but honestly I've got the feeling this one would tear through end-of-campaign Vox Machina like a lightsaber through butter, if played without pulling punches.

How so? Vox Machina has more than 4 characters in its party, a rogue and a barbarian ( dunno if its a berserker one) who need to land fewer hits than a fighter (so no teleporting out of an action surge), 3 spell casters (will he save his reactions for counterspell only? then he will be cough by the 2 melee, teleported? Its at least a spell out now), and 2 ranged damage dealers that he is unable to do anything agains, he has no shield, no abosrb elements, no blink and no legendary actions. Vox Machina would melt him and just on action economy.
I really cant see this Vecna being a challenge to bigger parties.

[kazaryu]

Some people have compared this Vecna to the Critical Role version, but honestly I've got the feeling this one would tear through end-of-campaign Vox Machina like a lightsaber through butter, if played without pulling punches.

no...well, depends on what you mean by 'without pulling punches'. if using the book of vile darkness, maybe. Vox Machina is in a lot of ways set up to straight counter this vecna.
vex was an archer, meaning it would be basically impossible to prevent her from dealing damage
vax had both his boots of haste, and just general rogue mobility on to of being a ranged attacker primarily. meaning it would be hard to prevent *his* damage.
Grog was a berserker, so he was immune to fear. and while you vecna could infinitely kite him in a 1v1, its much harder to do when trying to kite everyone else as well.
keyleth was a moon druid, so she didn't necessarily need her spells to contribute
i think pike/scalnan are the only ones that would straight up struggle.

thats not to say that this statblock wouldn't somewhat nerf all of them. obviously it wouldn't be all sunshine and roses. But just the character builds by themselves make them a decent match up for him. couple that with their sheer numbers? with 6 of them they only need to average 59 damage per character in order to kill him in the first round (and thats assuming bad initiatives, such that vecna gets the full value from his teleport). and 36 damage per turn in the first 2 rounds. they all had stupid high to-hit values from magical items, meaning his 18 AC means nothing.

but yeah...thats his big weakness. his HP, its pretty low. and against a smaller party, thats fine. he can dish out some great damage, very quickly, to minimize the incoming damage. but against a party like VM where there's a ton of them, and many of them straight up counter his defensive tools...i really don't think they'd struggle as much as you think.

[ProsecutorGodot]

How so? Vox Machina has more than 4 characters in its party, a rogue and a barbarian ( dunno if its a berserker one) who need to land fewer hits than a fighter (so no teleporting out of an action surge), 3 spell casters (will he save his reactions for counterspell only? then he will be cough by the 2 melee, teleported? Its at least a spell out now), and 2 ranged damage dealers that he is unable to do anything agains, he has no shield, no abosrb elements, no blink and no legendary actions. Vox Machina would melt him and just on action economy.
I really cant see this Vecna being a challenge to bigger parties.

Yea, it would be pretty incredible if he survived more than a single turn, notably the barbarian had the sword of kas during the battle and they had 3 full casters with access to spells like Shapechange, True Polymorph and Wish.

Several of them also had resistance to necrotic damage and, at the time, all were immune to fear at least until Vecna dispelled several of their heroes feast effects.

Vox Machina isn't optimal by any means but they're no pushover.

[stoutstien]

It's not even clear what the numbers are supposed to mean, past CR 20. There are no 26th level PCs so what's CR 26? The only part that matters is the 90,000 XP so why not just say that? CR: Super, 90,000 is more informative than "CR 26."

Aye. Was kinda my point that it breaks down so it's too murky to tell but it is telling how swingy it is if you remove a small portion of the total package. Like Zuggtmoy isn't very flashy as a CR 20+ and only has one trick. If that trick works then it will stay 20+ but if a notable amount of the party has disease/charm immunity she drops to a whopping CR 14-17.
Really pushes how flexible those big CRs need to be to hold regardless of party makeup.

[Unoriginal]

How so? Vox Machina has more than 4 characters in its party, a rogue and a barbarian ( dunno if its a berserker one) who need to land fewer hits than a fighter (so no teleporting out of an action surge), 3 spell casters (will he save his reactions for counterspell only? then he will be cough by the 2 melee, teleported? Its at least a spell out now), and 2 ranged damage dealers that he is unable to do anything agains, he has no shield, no abosrb elements, no blink and no legendary actions. Vox Machina would melt him and just on action economy.
I really cant see this Vecna being a challenge to bigger parties.

no...well, depends on what you mean by 'without pulling punches'. if using the book of vile darkness, maybe. Vox Machina is in a lot of ways set up to straight counter this vecna.
vex was an archer, meaning it would be basically impossible to prevent her from dealing damage
vax had both his boots of haste, and just general rogue mobility on to of being a ranged attacker primarily. meaning it would be hard to prevent *his* damage.
Grog was a berserker, so he was immune to fear. and while you vecna could infinitely kite him in a 1v1, its much harder to do when trying to kite everyone else as well.
keyleth was a moon druid, so she didn't necessarily need her spells to contribute
i think pike/scalnan are the only ones that would straight up struggle.

thats not to say that this statblock wouldn't somewhat nerf all of them. obviously it wouldn't be all sunshine and roses. But just the character builds by themselves make them a decent match up for him. couple that with their sheer numbers? with 6 of them they only need to average 59 damage per character in order to kill him in the first round (and thats assuming bad initiatives, such that vecna gets the full value from his teleport). and 36 damage per turn in the first 2 rounds. they all had stupid high to-hit values from magical items, meaning his 18 AC means nothing.

but yeah...thats his big weakness. his HP, its pretty low. and against a smaller party, thats fine. he can dish out some great damage, very quickly, to minimize the incoming damage. but against a party like VM where there's a ton of them, and many of them straight up counter his defensive tools...i really don't think they'd struggle as much as you think.

Yea, it would be pretty incredible if he survived more than a single turn, notably the barbarian had the sword of kas during the battle and they had 3 full casters with access to spells like Shapechange, True Polymorph and Wish.

Several of them also had resistance to necrotic damage and, at the time, all were immune to fear at least until Vecna dispelled several of their heroes feast effects.

Vox Machina isn't optimal by any means but they're no pushover.

It seems I had forgotten quite a few of Vox Machina's advantages in this matchup. I was clearly wrong in my diagnosis, so thank you for correcting me.

More specifically I expected Vecna to be able to kill Vax and maybe Scanlan very quickly, but yeah, I overestimated those chances. Action economy **** up Big V no matter how it goes.

[Rafaelfras]

It seems I had forgotten quite a few of Vox Machina's advantages in this matchup. I was clearly wrong in my diagnosis, so thank you for correcting me.

More specifically I expected Vecna to be able to kill Vax and maybe Scanlan very quickly, but yeah, I overestimated those chances. Action economy **** up Big V no matter how it goes.

If you gave him a full spellcasting list and a Halaster/ Acererak type of legendary action along with his stat block he would be a formidable oponent with enough defensive power and action economy (3 legendary and 3 reactions) to withstand a bigger party thats for sure. If I ever use him thats what I am going to do

[Psyren]

Some people have compared this Vecna to the Critical Role version, but honestly I've got the feeling this one would tear through end-of-campaign Vox Machina like a lightsaber through butter, if played without pulling punches.

That may be true, but the fact is the Critical Role one should be vastly more powerful than this one so it's irrelevant anyway.

[Dork_Forge]

So I ran a simulation with some folks from my Discord Server against Vecna.

TL:DR - It was a cakewalk for him, often overhealing, and I don't think a 4th PC in this circumstance would have really mattered.

The set up:

I took the dimensions of the map from the adventure they put out: 80 feet long and 30 feet wide, featureless blank grid

Vecna started at the far end of the map, with a modest guard of 4 skeletons in the middle, and the players at the far end.

Players were given the 20k, 1 very rare, two rares, and three uncommons suggested by the DMG as posted upthread. They chose their own items.

Spoiler: PCs

Show

Grum (minotaur):

14 BearBarian/6 Swash Rogue uses TWF to increase the chances of Sneak and Rage damage

Had access to flight from 14th level eagle totem

Feats: Defensive Duelist

Items:

Flame Tongue short sword
+1 scimitar
+1 longbow
+1 horn mod
Belt of dwarven kind
Belt of Frost Giant Str

---------------------

Hazel (V. Human):

16 Horizon Walker Ranger/4 Echo Knight Fighter

Feats: Sharpshooter, Piercer

Items:

Oathbow
Armor of Poison Resistance
Cloak of Displacement
Circlet of Blasting
Dust of Sneezing and choking
Goggles of night


------------------

Max (Silver Dragonborn Fizbans)

Straight 20 Zealot (24 Str and Con)

Feats: Mobile

Items:

Greataxe of Sharpness
Ring of Free Action
Boots of Speed
Broom of Flying
Stone of Good luck
Keoghtom's Ointment

Initiative order:

22 Skeletons
21 Grum
14 Vecna
13 Hazel
13 Max

Despite Hazel having a +5 Dex, and Max having a +2 with advantage on Initiative, Vecna managed a decent placing with a middling score. Yes, the dice could have fallen differently, but they didn't and this was the order. Those writing off his +3 Dex should think twice, whilst averages help us, the individual experience is rarely average.


I don't have a round by round blow-by-blow, but here are the highlights:

Round one saw the utter destruction of the skeletons after landing only two arrows, one on Grum and I think one on Hazel.

Hazel got hit with Rotten Fate twice, failing both times with a +4 Con, I rolled 98 and 106 damage respectively, the second one downed her for the first time. She would later get hit by it again and not get back up.

Grum weathered most damage well, using Uncanny Dodge and Defensive Duelist to mitigate damage effectively, the psychic teleport damage was what he hated most. He was the last to 'fall.'

I used Flight of the Damned once, hitting all three and frightening Grum, this left him unable to close for one round and lef using his +1 bow to attack instead.

On Round 4 maybe, Max got Dominated and turned on Grum.

It was over by the end of round 5.

Thoughts on Vecna as the DM:

He had it easy, his heal was partially being wasted half the time. The party could have been more efficient and tactical, but they didn't do horribly either. He hit hard enough with Rotten Fate that he rather quickly downed a high Con martial, and the beauty of his action economy is that he was damaging players near constantly in different ways. His teleport on a reaction denied a few hits due to lack of movement speed to close again. My only criticism is I'd like him to have access to Shield, even if it's only twice.

From talking with the players and their reactions during the game: The multiple reactions per turn really messed with them and knocked them off balance. The Ranger would have preferred a larger map (she didn't know that Rotten fate has a range of 120ft, and still doesn't), the Barbarians felt the smaller map made it easier to keep up with him. They felt that he was a difficult and scary fight, but that he would be doable with some four (or more) player parties playing tactically. They found the notion that he was being dismissed out of hand very odd after having had to fight him.

I intend to run him again as a test, but in a more fleshed out scenario, probably just running the full adventure from Beyond.

The experiment confirmed my suspicions about the block, it's so unusual and unexpected that players were caught off guard and off-put by the sheer number of damage sources and effects being leveled at them. His healing is adequate to keep him a threat ongoingly.

I'm curious how he does in a larger space, and possible with a Paladin in the party. I'd also like to see Dread Counterspell get used, I only had to use the rebuke reaction, which worked very well.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That may be true, but the fact is the Critical Role one should be vastly more powerful than this one so it's irrelevant anyway.

Which part of the statement is true exactly? I thought we'd moved past it and agreed that Vox Machina creams this baby Vecna since the much more powerful one they were in danger of killing too quickly got defeated by them.

As far as comparing the two different Vecna, it's not entirely irrelevant but I'll agree it is mostly irrelevant to compare pre and post ascension Vecna.

Spoiler

Show

But we can. Crit Role Vecna has three 9th level spell slots, powerful crowd control options in Forcecage and Maze, at least 1500 hit points with an AC of 23 and a spell save DC of 26. Limited Magical Immunity, immunity to prone and blind of top of all the same immunities the Archlich Vecna statblock has except stunned, strangely. He could also use The Hand of Vecna as a magic item and dealt automatic retaliation cold damage to melee attackers. They successfully sealed him in 8 rounds after dealing 1890 damage.

This was a fun read too, again not really relevant, but fun.

So I ran a simulation with some folks from my Discord Server against Vecna.

TL:DR - It was a cakewalk for him, often overhealing, and I don't think a 4th PC in this circumstance would have really mattered.

An interesting setup, honestly, I'm curious how my party would have done given the chance. We've got a Paladin .

[Jervis]

An interesting setup, honestly, I'm curious how my party would have done given the chance. We've got a Paladin .

TBH any undead is gonna get their day rocked by a appropriately leveled Paladin unless they just resist radiant for some reason. And even if they do it’s not a deal breaker. A critical hit 4th level smite can kinda just explode things.

[ProsecutorGodot]

TBH any undead is gonna get their day rocked by a appropriately leveled Paladin unless they just resist radiant for some reason. And even if they do it’s not a deal breaker. A critical hit 4th level smite can kinda just explode things.

I'm not even sure that the damage output is the primary strength, Aura of Protection and Courage give a substantial bonus towards ignoring the negative effects of his actions, combined with Circle of Power he's near powerless.

I think if you take a Watchers Paladin you just kinda... win.

[Dork_Forge]

I think a Paladin would be very disruptive to him, but because of the Auras more than the Smites. The teleporting makes smiting too unreliable.