Personal prestige class

[Nelfin]

I have asked for help to create a character some time ago. It is here (for those who want to take a look). And I am here to ask for help to create a prestige class, certainly the worst in terms of power ever made.

We are currently level 3 in Forgotten Realms and my party is a low optimization party: Fighter 2/Knight 1, Barbarian 3, Rogue 3 (going Duskblade at level 4), Bard 1/Fighter 2 (going back to Bard at level 4 and then into the prestige class Sword Dancer), Druid 3 (new player to RPG in general and who has no idea what optimization means) and Cloistered Cleric - of Selune - 3 (with Touch of Healing and yes I know it is bad for optimization purpose). Also, we currently have around 300 gp each compared to the 900 from the wealth by level table. So we are also poor!

I am playing the cleric. Since Cleric is a strong class by itself, I don't think I need to worry about optimization so I wanted to create a prestige class with some fluff. The DM has ruled that Touch of Healing works as per usual except "under the rays of the moon". In this case, the Touch of healing is a swift action and can restore to full HP. The prestige class I am trying to create is in the same idea: be stronger at full moon and weaker at new moon. I also tried to tie the prestige class to some way to fight (because fighting is still the most improtant thing in DnD it seems) differently between full moon and new moon. Basically, at new moon more a defensive playstyle (typically counter spelling) and at full moon more like bash everything playstyle.

I came up with the following.
Selunite wanderer

Requirements:
Alignment: Chaotic
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks
Feat: Skill focus (Religion)
Special: Cleric of Selune level 5, Moon domain

Skill points: 6 + Int
Hit dice: d6
No additional weapon nor armor proficiency.

Poor BAB, Good Fortittude and Will save.
+1 divine caster level per level of Selunite Wanderer.

1st level: Gain the benefit of Eschew Material on days of full moon.
Lycanthrope and undead turning attempts: -2 bonus on turning level on days of new moon and +2 on days of full moon. Your levels of Selunite Wanderer and Cleric stack.
2nd level: Gain the benefit of Spell Thematics for your divine spells.
Serenity of the Moon: -2 bonus on days of new moon and +2 bonus on days of full moon on save versus mind-affecting effects.
3rd level: Eyes of Selune: -2 caster level on days of new moon and +2 caster level on days of full moon for Divination spells.
4th level: -
5th level: Gain the benefit of True Believer, Lunar Magic and Weapon Focus (Mace).
Mood of the Moon: at each new moon, make a roll. You gain the spell as a spell-like ability, once a day. Roll result: 1. Chaos Hammer; 2. Cloak of Chaos; 3. Maw of Chaos; 4. Protection from Law; 5. Scramble Portal; 6. Summon Bralani Eladrin; 7. Wall of Chaos; 8. Weight of Sin; 9. Word of Chaos; 10. Nothing.
6th level: Loose access to Necromancy and Darkness divine spells.
Cast Light and Force divine spells at +2 caster level.
Add the spells of Initiate of Selune (Handfire, Moonblade, Strength of the beast, Wall of Moonlight, Moonweb) to your Moon domain list.
Bonus domain (Chaos, Good, Protection or Travel).
7th level: Gain DR 10/silver on days of full moon.
Lycanthrope and undead turning attempts: you can use your lycantrope and undead turn attempts interchangeably.
Selune Radiance (same as Divine Radiance except that it also affects evil lycanthropes) on days of full moon.
8th level: -
9th level: -
10th level: Gain the benefit of Divine Defiance on days of new moon.
Gain the benefit of Divine Spell Power on days of full moon.

Days of new and full moon: see Lunar Magic.
Remark: Divine MetaMagic is banned so the 7th level feature seems OK power wise compared to the other players.

Honeslty, I am not super pleased with what I came up with. I find that the power level between new moon and full moon is not enough. And except for the 10th level, I didn't found anything substantial to make the playstyle different. At some point, I fought about given a malus to BAB at new moon and a bonus at full moon but it is pointless with a spell such as Divine Power.

If you have any idea how to make some marked difference mechanically, I am all ears.

[Jervis]

Uh I should warn you loosing access to necromancy means no revival spells, which is very likely to bite you in the but at some point. Loosing darkness is probably fine tho. In general this class is kinda of a zero sun gain in most levels, which i’m against in most cases but like you said it’s meant to be low opt.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Uh I should warn you loosing access to necromancy means no revival spells, which is very likely to bite you in the but at some point. Loosing darkness is probably fine tho. In general this class is kinda of a zero sun gain in most levels, which i’m against in most cases but like you said it’s meant to be low opt.

This is 3.5, not 5e. Resurrection is Conjuration (Healing), though it possibly shouldn't be. Necromancy is mostly energy/ability damage/drain, and undead stuff.

About the class, I agree that it's... weird. Mostly power-wise, it's weird to have bonuses only on days of full moon, and penalties only on days of new moon. It's better to have bonuses and penalties that switch with each other. And it's weird to have a level with nothing and a level with THREE bonus feats. Also, 6+int is waaay too high for a full casting prestige class. Most full casters are already at 2+int, and prestige classes generally have even less skill points than the classes they're based on.

In my opinion, I would have the moon phases be divided in seven, in reference to Selune's seven stars, each being two days except the full moon, half-moon and new moon, which would be three days (to keep it consistent with werewolf transformations, and make the cycle 28 days divided in four weeks):
The class gives "dark" bonuses and "light" bonuses, following :

Week 1:
0-2: New moon: -4 Light, +4 Dark, or completely forbid an action linked to light
3-4:First quarter 1: -2 Light, +2 Dark
5-6:First quarter 2: -1 Light, +1 Dark
Week 2:
7-9:Half-moon: no bonus or malus
10-11:Last quarter 1: +1 Light, -1 Dark
12-13:Last quarter 2: +2 Light, -2 Dark
Week 3:
14-16:Full Moon: +4 Light, -4 Dark, or completely forbid an action linked to dark
17-18:Last quarter 2: +2 Light, -2 Dark
19-20:Last quarter 1: +1 Light, -1 Dark
Week 4:
21-23:Half-moon: no bonus or malus
24-25:First quarter 2: -1 Light, +1 Dark
26-27:First quarter 1: -2 Light, +2 Dark
Week 1 again:
28-30:New moon: -4 Light, +4 Dark, or completely forbid an action linked to light


Each level, or each two levels, these bonuses apply to something new. The levels between can be bonus feats or new spells or domains
Example:
Progresses turn undead level, gains new spells at each level except first
2+Int skills
cleric BAB, d8 HD
1: Eyes of Selune: Dark: bonuses to Hide, Bluff and Move Silently. Light: Bonuses to Spot, Listen and Divination caster levels
2: Changing style: During new moon and first quarter, you gain Weapon Finesse. During full moon and last quarter, you gain Weapon Focus (heavy mace)
3: Magic of Selune: Dark: Bonuses to dispel checks and abjuration caster levels (they stack when using (Greater) Dispel Magic). Can't use Evocation during new moon. Light: bonuses to Evocation caster level and [light] spells (they stack when using a [light] evocation spell). Can't use abjuration during full moon.
4: Changing mind: During new moon and first quarter, you gain +4 to saves against charm. During full moon and last quarter, you gain +4 to saves against fear.
5: Body of Selune: Dark: bonuses to AC and Dex-based checks. Light: bonuses to attack and damage rolls, and Str-based checks
6: Changing walk: During new moon and first quarter, you gain Darkstalker. During full moon and last quarter, you levitate slightly above the ground. This isn't enough to give you any advantage when attacking, but it allows you to ignore difficult terrain and hover above liquid without falling. During full moon, you are instead affected as though by the Fly spell (can be dispelled but you can reactivate it as a free action)
7: Authority of Selune: Dark: bonuses to Intimidate, Use Magic Device and Illusion spells. Can't use Enchantment during new moon DC. Light: bonuses to Sense Motive, Diplomacy and Enchantment spells DC. Can't use illusion during full moon.
8: Changing divinity: During new moon and first quarter, you gain Divine Defiance. During full moon and last quarter, you gain Extra Turning. During full moon, you also get +2 to your turn undead level.
9:Tears of Selune: This ability functions like Lay on Hands except you appear to be crying when you use it. Your tears are glowing white when the moon is more than half-alight and you can heal each day two HP per class level multiplied by your Light bonus. When the moon is new or in its first quarter, your tears are pitch black and you can instead deal each day two HP per class level multiplied by your Dark bonus. You can separate the healing or the damage the way you want.
10: Selune Paragon: 1/month, for 10 rounds, you gain all advantages and none of the penalties associated with both new moon and full moon. You also get 2 temp HP per HD and any damage healed or dealt by your Tears of Selune ability is doubled. If you are killed in this state, you return to life (no level lost) at the next full moon, or after 1 month if it is currently full moon.

[Jervis]

This is 3.5, not 5e. Resurrection is Conjuration (Healing), though it possibly shouldn't be. Necromancy is mostly energy/ability damage/drain, and undead stuff.

Ah crap. I play multiple editions and I can never keep straight which school healing and reanimating is in. They keep switching it every edition

[Darg]

Ah crap. I play multiple editions and I can never keep straight which school healing and reanimating is in. They keep switching it every edition

Don't worry, it's completely arbitrary (looking at you orbs of x element).

[Nelfin]

Thanks Beni-Kujaku. I could certainly not come up with such a streamlined class.

I just have a question about the level 8. Is there any reason you contrasted Divine Defiance with turning? I understand the contrast at all other levels but this one, I don't get it.

Edit: I am just curious. Even if the reason would be "I didn't found anything else", I am extremely happy with what you proposed.

[redking]

Hold on a second. How often do clerics use material components? It would be very rare. What exactly are you going to eschew with your 1st level ability?

[Nelfin]

As I mentioned, I am not searching for a powerful class. The Eschew Materials feat (as well as Spell Thematics for divine spells) was there only for "fluff". The idea was that the class was more powerfull at full moon and that's why the class I proposed had some level with bonus at full moon and malus at new moon.

[Jervis]

As I mentioned, I am not searching for a powerful class. The Eschew Materials feat (as well as Spell Thematics for divine spells) was there only for "fluff". The idea was that the class was more powerfull at full moon and that's why the class I proposed had some level with bonus at full moon and malus at new moon.

Yeah but Eschew materials kinda doesn’t do much of anything for you. I’d take Worldly Focus instead (technically a Eberron feat but eh), let’s you cast without a divine focus. Would need adaptation but you’re getting it as a class feature that’s only active once a month so whatever

[Beni-Kujaku]

Thanks Beni-Kujaku. I could certainly not come up with such a streamlined class.

I just have a question about the level 8. Is there any reason you contrasted Divine Defiance with turning? I understand the contrast at all other levels but this one, I don't get it.

I was contrasting "losing some Turn attempts" and "gaining some Turn attempts". The fluff of Divine Defiance is that you turn away from any magic coming from other gods than your own, and the name implies you're distrusting other gods. On the opposite, turning is bringing god's power on this plane to scare undead. I was also thinking about Selune Paragon, the capstone, thinking that it would be cool if some Dark and Light abilities could synergize and it would only be available when activating Selune Paragon.

[Nelfin]

Yeah but Eschew materials kinda doesn’t do much of anything for you. I’d take Worldly Focus instead (technically a Eberron feat but eh), let’s you cast without a divine focus. Would need adaptation but you’re getting it as a class feature that’s only active once a month so whatever

This does not matter to me if there is something that does "nothing" such as Eschew Materials. Once again, I am not searching for power. Technically, Weapon Finesse does nothing for me as well. I have 10 in Dex. But, it is great for the class to be there.

I wasn't aware for Worldly Focus but it could have been a good stuff also.


And thanks (again!) for the answer, Beni-Kujaku.

[Jervis]

This does not matter to me if there is something that does "nothing" such as Eschew Materials. Once again, I am not searching for power. Technically, Weapon Finesse does nothing for me as well. I have 10 in Dex. But, it is great for the class to be there.

I wasn't aware for Worldly Focus but it could have been a good stuff also.


And thanks (again!) for the answer, Beni-Kujaku.

It’s not a bad feat per se it’s just weird. It’s like giving Incantrix weapon focus (great axe) on mondays or giving dragon disciple extra turning when it’s raining outside. I mean it’s neat but kinda weird

[redking]

This does not matter to me if there is something that does "nothing" such as Eschew Materials. Once again, I am not searching for power. Technically, Weapon Finesse does nothing for me as well. I have 10 in Dex. But, it is great for the class to be there.

I am not talking powerful or not. The equivalent of what you are doing with eschew material components would be giving yourself a +4 to number of wild shape, even though you do not wild shape. When a cleric has "M" in the spell mechanics, it's always an expensive material component, which means it cannot be eschewed. Your first level ability literally has no function in your build.

Weapon Finesse might be useful for someone with higher dexterity. Your echew ability isn't useful for anyone.

[Nelfin]

We don't bother with material components when there is no associated cost (and I guess at a lot of table). In that sense, Eschew Materials does absolutely nothing since it applies to material components worth less than 1 gp. And that is why I said that is a "fluff" feat to me. I don't see the analogy with your wild shape example.

Mechanically speaking, I guess the only thing that Eschew Materials does is when you don't have your component pouch with you.

Now I have a question for you: since you think that Eschew Materials has no mechanical impact on the game, why does it bother you that it is added as a bonus feat somewhere as fluff?

[redking]

Now I have a question for you: since you think that Eschew Materials has no mechanical impact on the game, why does it bother you that it is added as a bonus feat somewhere as fluff?

It has no mechanical impact on your cleric. It's useful for wizards and sorcerers in a game where components are tracked. As a cleric however, you don't use inexpensive components, only expensive components. Expensive components cannot be eschewed.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. You asked for feedback and I pointed out that you have a nonsensical ability at first level. In fact, I stopped reading right there.

If it's a "fluff" feat for your cleric build, what exactly is the fluff? That Selune bestows useless abilities on her clerics, or that she expects that characters taking this prestige class will also be wizards?

[Nelfin]

The fluff is that, at full moon, the power of Selune is easier to be accessed to, because we are talking about a divine caster here. Being more easily accesible, the spell casting is less difficult and in particulat, the cleric does not need the material component he usually needs, well at least the not too costly ones.

Edit: and by the way, it could have been something alse such as somatic component or even not needding a holy symbol as proposed by Jervis. It is just that my system mastery is extremely limited and used Eschew Materials because, well, I knew about it. Eschew Materials has an advantage from my point of view though, it has no impact, in practice, mechanically. And yes, being a useless ability is an advantage!

[redking]

The fluff is that, at full moon, the power of Selune is easier to be accessed to, because we are talking about a divine caster here. Being more easily accesible, the spell casting is less difficult and in particulat, the cleric does not need the material component he usually needs, well at least the not too costly ones.

I'm flabbergasted.

Clerics don't really cast spells with inexpensive material components, that is a component under 1gp. Now, such a divine spell might exist, but I don't know if any. Take the identify spell. It has an Arcane Material Component of a 100gp pearl. A cleric with the magic domain however casts the spell for free, because the material component is arcane. Or, on the other hand, take animate dead.

Material Component
You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

As you can see, the material component applies to both arcane and divine spellcasters. But note the cost. It cannot be eschewed.

Now, conceptually it would be cool that Selune can reduce material component costs, but eschewing them ain't it because there are few (possibly no) divine spells that have a material component cost of under 1gp.

Fluff wise, surely Selune is a powerful god that understands that eschew material components is not useful for her cleric followers. Perhaps you can give a simple reduction in material component costs. Just set an amount of gp to be reduced at level one, or make it scale with your PrC level.

[Nelfin]

OK. I have read and noted your proposition.

[Jervis]

If it's a "fluff" feat for your cleric build, what exactly is the fluff? That Selune bestows useless abilities on her clerics, or that she expects that characters taking this prestige class will also be wizards?

Fluff wise, surely Selune is a powerful god that understands that eschew material components is not useful for her cleric followers. Perhaps you can give a simple reduction in material component costs. Just set an amount of gp to be reduced at level one, or make it scale with your PrC level.

Ok headcannon here. Selune heard about all these wizards worshiping obscure gods and jumping through hoops to qualify for prestige classes so she decided to give hers a feature that only wizards would use. She didn’t do any research before hand to realize that said prestige classes could also advance arcane casting despite needing divine casting to enter and had more general benefits. So now her clerics get eschew materials and for some reason she isn’t seeing wizard converts with alternate source spell that she expected.