OOTS #1260 - The Discussion Thread

[Larsaan]

I was looking on the internet and I catched that Bulettes suffer of insatiable hunger.
Plus they likes to eat halfling and dislike dwarves and mostly elves (and this will totally come along with Xykon's lack of attention for details!)
The only problem is that I can't find anywhere something about Bulette being able to cast earthquake, as we seen long time ago in a strip... maybe a variant, or similar?

Gray renders are similiar creatures that would probably fit the bill more closely, but neither of them have overtly supernatural abilities.

[Peelee]

Are we sure that's a Pit Fiend? I remember asking about this another time, because while everyone seemed to think so, I can't find any hard evidence. According to the SRD, Pit Fiends are 12 feet tall, and that creature looks much bigger. That said, I can't find a better fit among devils (especially with the wings and flames).

The two closest fits are pit fiend and balor, and qarr is a devil summoning another devil. Sure, it's oversized, but the author plays with size all the time. That one needed to be colossal for Kubota could see it defeated, so it was colossal.

[danielxcutter]

Are we sure that's a Pit Fiend? I remember asking about this another time, because while everyone seemed to think so, I can't find any hard evidence. According to the SRD, Pit Fiends are 12 feet tall, and that creature looks much bigger. That said, I can't find a better fit among devils (especially with the wings and flames).

Well DStP was Screw The PCs^TM: The Arc. Maybe it was an advanced one.

[faustin]

V de Vendetta: "Come now, Mr. Redcloak, you knew this was coming. You knew that one day, it'd be you or him."

[mjasghar]

Not surprised that WWE didn't want to pay Tolkien just for old Finn.

EDIT: Should have made the other one a "The boxer from Street Fighter" reference instead of playing into the Tolkien stuff everyone was already talking about.

Balrog was originally meant to be the End Boss name, and the boxer M.Bison as a joke about M Tyson but they had to change it as it was too close
The facial features are a dead give away

[KorvinStarmast]

Check the forward of Start of Darkness: "He's kind of a [expletive deleted]".

I didn't need to read the forward of SoD to figure out that Xykon was/is a {censored}.

Not really. Dragons tend to be too large to be MitD. Or rather, you can pick powerful enough to be MitD, or small enough to be MitD, but not both. This is an issue exclusive to dragons, too, because they are about the only creatures that have stats from babies to elder, so we know precisely what they can do when they are MitD's size.

Got it, thanks. Been a while since I hit the MiTD thread(s) so I wasn't sure of the state of play on 'most likely' .... will go take a look. (I think protean was where I'd last thrown my guess ... not sure if I ever posted).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Been a while since I hit the MiTD thread(s) so I wasn't sure of the state of play on 'most likely' .... will go take a look. (I think protean was where I'd last thrown my guess ... not sure if I ever posted).

You catch us at an awkward moment (new thread created, but waiting on my collaborators to post their stuff, so the old one is still the active one), so I can give you the rundown here. Crusher keeps track of which suggestions have had the most adherents, and Protean remain top of the list, followed by an unpublished, now deleted from the Internet except for a copy I made in the forums, variation of the Athasian Nightmare Beast, followed by a Slaad (usually white or black, the most powerful, notwithstanding the lifecycle issues). We haven't touched on it, but honestly, I could see the "I'm full" being a reference that he is currently a white Slaad about to transition to black. Or maybe that's just me projecting because that was supposed to be my silly suggestion, and I'm just biased to see every little piece fit in that direction.

As to suggestions themselves, regardless of adherents, the most recent one "quite good fit" is a Xenocrysth, a psionic cthulhu-like creature.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

Tsukiko was loyal to Xykon, though. I'm not sure how Redcloak killing Tsukiko confirms to Xykon that Tsukiko was disloyal and that Redcloak is trying to keep the ritual secret from him.

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.

If she did go to Xykon first, Xykon suggested she try to solicit a bribe; otherwise, she thought of it herself.

Xykon is lazy, not stupid. He had custody of the half-ritual for a while. If for no other reason than to have something to do on a boring afternoon, he'd have studied it. Even if he didn't know exactly what it does, he'd suspect it does not do what Redcloak says it does.

Along comes Tsukiko. Is she loyal to him or to Redcloak? Test her. Give her the half ritual and if she comes to him and confirms what he already knows/suspects, she's loyal. Then use her to find out if Redcloak knows.

But if she goes to Redcloak first, she also confirms what he knows/suspects, and at the same time demonstrates her disloyalty. She's in it for herself, no matter her freaky fantasies.

That Redcloak kills her is also confirmation that Redcloak already knows the ritual does not do what he says it does and is hiding that knowledge from Xykon.

Perhaps one has to be a paranoid to think like a paranoid, but in Xykon's mind everyone is a traitor because he is. He can't imagine they are not. Tsukiko's loyalty test proved that if Redcloak hadn't killed her, he would have had to do so himself sooner or later. He knows Redcloak will try to use and discard him, so he will be ready to turn the tables when it happens.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.

She went to RC because she didn't have the answer yet. And she thought she could bully him into giving it to her.

GW

[Fyraltari]

If Tsukiko was loyal, why did she go to Redcloak first? She was trying to extort Redcloak for her own benefit with a secret a loyal minion should have taken to her patron.

For two reasons, the first being that she was trying to impress Xykon by bringing him the full ritual. She didn't "go to Redcloak"at all, he found her ransacking his study while he was away.

If she did go to Xykon first, Xykon suggested she try to solicit a bribe; otherwise, she thought of it herself.

What bribe?

Xykon is lazy, not stupid. He had custody of the half-ritual for a while. If for no other reason than to have something to do on a boring afternoon, he'd have studied it. Even if he didn't know exactly what it does, he'd suspect it does not do what Redcloak says it does.

Xykon never received any formal training in magic. Remember that even when fighting for dear (un)life against the ghost-martyrs he kept using the wrong kind of magic attacks.
Which is why he asked Tsukiko to decypher the ritual for him. She realized it couldn't do what it was advertised as doing, but in order to know what it actually does she needed the second half. Without knowing exactly what Recloak was up to, she would only have technical jargon to report to Xykon and it'd be her word against Redcloak's.

Along comes Tsukiko. Is she loyal to him or to Redcloak?

Why would she be loyal to Redcloak? He tried to kill her on day one. She's been demeaning him and fighting him for the #2 spot ever since. Xykon knows this'

Perhaps one has to be a paranoid to think like a paranoid, but in Xykon's mind everyone is a traitor because he is. He can't imagine they are not.

Xykon is not paranoid. He's not as careless as he appears (he clearly knows Redcloak isn't loyal) but he hardly frets over who's going to betray him. He apparently hasn't realized yet that the MitD is turning against him, for example.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon is not paranoid. He's not as careless as he appears (he clearly knows Redcloak isn't loyal) but he hardly frets over who's going to betray him. He apparently hasn't realized yet that the MitD is turning against him, for example.

Actually, I think he works on the assumption that everyone will eventually turn against him, because that is what he would do. But also assumes they won't do it until they're powerful enough, again because that's what he would do. So most of his efforts are in making sure no minion is ever too powerful for him to handle.

And I think he cottoned on to MitD's wavering loyalty back in the desert, but chose to go along with it anyway because he doesn't think MitD is as dangerous as RC.

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

Xykon never received any formal training in magic.

The Giant is free to ignore this but Epic Spellcasting for an arcane caster does require a serious degree of arcane knowledge (specifically having both Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) with at least 24 ranks in both - impossible for non-epic casters).

He also has seemingly developed his own arcane spells and has no issue casting them, spellcraft checks are needed for casting them and Knowledge (arcane) determines spells per day (1 epic spell slot for every ten ranks)

Xykon may be the most knowledgable spellcaster around - and as such he might have used Tsukiko for something other then the purpose of having her research the ritual.

Or the Gaint may be ignoring the epic spellcasting rules and thereby the skill rank requirements and the implications thereof (or Xykon might have been able but just couldn't be bothered), I wouldn't outright dismiss the idea that Xykon may be pulling a con however.

Remember that even when fighting for dear (un)life against the ghost-martyrs he kept using the wrong kind of magic attacks.

That would likely have required Knowledge (religion).

[Shining Wrath]

Actually, I think he works on the assumption that everyone will eventually turn against him, because that is what he would do. But also assumes they won't do it until they're powerful enough, again because that's what he would do. So most of his efforts are in making sure no minion is ever too powerful for him to handle.

And I think he cottoned on to MitD's wavering loyalty back in the desert, but chose to go along with it anyway because he doesn't think MitD is as dangerous as RC.

Grey Wolf

An interesting point is that Xykon thinks MitD is quite powerful - capable of casually devouring RC - but doesn't seem to fear him. Does he think he can Dominate him casually? Might be a clue, that MitD has a relatively low Will save.

[kierthos]

Some thoughts:

Always good to see TE again. And it's good to see development with MitD.

Xykon's phylactery is a holy symbol of The Dark One. No matter where it is, TDO can know. Xykon may not have thought through all of the ramifications. (Unless he made his own phylactery and didn't tell RC.)

It's been a while since I've looked at D&D 3.5 rules (and Mr. Burlew is going to go for story over rules every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays), but I don't think Xykon can make another phylactery.

Okay, hear me out, and keep in mind, I could be wrong on the rules.

Creating a phylactery is part of the process of becoming a lich. You can't make multiple phylacteries for the same lich, because it's an intrinsic part of the ritual. And, from Start of Darkness, they used Redcloak's Holy Symbol because it was the only available option. So, they finish the ritual, Xykon goes from sociopathic elderly sorcerer to sociopathic lich. Even if Xykon wanted to make a "backup phylactery", it wouldn't work. Oh, he could make something that could work as a phylactery for someone else on the path to lichdom, but he's already got a phylactery.

Now, let's say the phylactery (Redcloak's Holy Symbol) gets broken. Xykon isn't immediately destroyed. Rather, once the phylactery is destroyed, if Xykon gets destroyed, he's gone, no coming back, do not pass go, do not collect 200 gold pieces.

Could Xykon, between the destruction of Redcloak's Holy Symbol and his own destruction, turn that almost a phylactery mentioned earlier into his new phylactery? In my opinion, no. Because again, creating a phylactery (and stuffing the soul of the would-be lich inside) is an intrinsic part of the ritual to become a lich. Xykon's already a lich. Again, Mr. Burlew could say "Yes, he can." and then it's a race to destroy Xykon before he completes the ritual, has a new phylactery, and becomes much harder to get rid of. Again.

[mjasghar]

We know that from the long term suggestion - Xykon can spam hypnotise him if need be.

[dancrilis]

...but I don't think Xykon can make another phylactery.

That would be correct* under the Libre Mortis rules.

However that could be read as 'humans cannot fly' which is true but magic could be designed to break that rule - and Xykon does have a lot of magic available to him, ignoring that if he moves onto being a demilich (a costly process) then he will have effectively 8 more phylacteries.

*edit: at least it is correct if the phylactery is destroyed.

[Jacky720]

Greg planned to stay in his God's realm; not the same thing as an unaffiliated epic sorceror chilling by the astral sea. When I thought you were talking about Hilgya/Loki you had a valid point, since we've no idea to which plane she was planning to shift.

One of the other vampires stated that, er, blue text distant relative guy would survive the destruction of the world on the demiplane of rolling down a hill painfully.

[Mic_128]

Even if you're right about this, how long do you think that would last? Regardless of which side would win whatever conflict might ensue, they both subsist on souls and so would want his eventually. Even moreso if the Snarl starts rampaging for eons and they have to subsist on reserve power, to say nothing of the winners eventually wanting to wipe the slate clean and remake the cosmology in their image.

I don't know how long, I'm just saying it's possible he (And perhaps Redcloak and/or The Order) escape there to ride out the initial destruction. There's no sense looking long-term as there's far to many unknown variables. What is the IFCC's great idea? What exactly will happen when the gates fall? Even the Gods don't know about the planet in the rift, which is massively important.

Put another way - if an astral fortress were truly a means of surviving the unmaking, we'd logically see a lot more of them; enough, in fact, that Xykon could have simply co-opted an empty one instead of making his own, as tends to be his MO. More to the point, we should have seen a single non-god survivor of a previous iteration of the world in all those attempts. That we've seen neither of these does not bode well for anyone who isn't a god, even an immortal.

True, but we don't know the timeline of how things go. What do the gods do while waiting for the snarl to calm down? Do they go and hunt down the mortals that escaped their worlds destruction? Wait until the Snarl calms down? Do the mortals that escape eventually just end up dying of thirst or starvation?

Again, I'm not saying that Xykon escapes the destruction of the world and lives in his fortress for a millennia - I'm just saying that it's possible he can survive the immediate destruction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One of the other vampires stated that, er, blue text distant relative guy would survive the destruction of the world on the demiplane of rolling down a hill painfully.

Not-Thad. And not that distant, he's Durkon's cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiancé. Practically brothers, really

:P

Grey Wolf

[Psyren]

I don't know how long, I'm just saying it's possible he (And perhaps Redcloak and/or The Order) escape there to ride out the initial destruction. There's no sense looking long-term as there's far to many unknown variables. What is the IFCC's great idea? What exactly will happen when the gates fall? Even the Gods don't know about the planet in the rift, which is massively important.



True, but we don't know the timeline of how things go. What do the gods do while waiting for the snarl to calm down? Do they go and hunt down the mortals that escaped their worlds destruction? Wait until the Snarl calms down? Do the mortals that escape eventually just end up dying of thirst or starvation?

Again, I'm not saying that Xykon escapes the destruction of the world and lives in his fortress for a millennia - I'm just saying that it's possible he can survive the immediate destruction.

I disagree that there's no sense looking long-term. We may not know exactly what happens between unmaking and remaking, but we do know the results - hard reset, no survivors/refugees remaining from the prior worlds save the gods themselves. The Giant can change that/introduce new information of course, but failing that, that's the data we have.

I agree that the most likely wrench in that will be the planet inside the rift, but Xykon doesn't have a fortress there so it's unlikely to matter for him.

[TRH]

I disagree that there's no sense looking long-term. We may not know exactly what happens between unmaking and remaking, but we do know the results - hard reset, no survivors/refugees remaining from the prior worlds save the gods themselves. The Giant can change that/introduce new information of course, but failing that, that's the data we have.

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

More broadly, if survivors from prior worlds are rare, it's not necessarily an indication that it's impossible for mortals to survive the world that made them, but that it's really difficult for several reasons, primary of which being that the vast majority would never have learned anything about the Snarl and would therefore have no warning that what seems to just be an earthquake will escalate to a planet-destroying kaboom in thirty minutes or less. And of the few that would want to get as far away from the coming catastrophe as possible, most wouldn't have the means of doing so, especially if not every world includes characters who have access to planar travel, and so on.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten.

Grey Wolf

[TRH]

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten.

Grey Wolf

Are we sure they're long-gone, though? The party was saved in the present of DCF by a talking sorcerous fruit pie, and while I suppose the intermission strip with the movie theater snacks (which was a fair bit later in the comic than I remembered) could potentially be a thing that happened millions of years ago, well, I dunno, that just seems like an additional assumption to make this argument even less parsimonious.

[chy03001]

Notwithstanding that we've seen a pit fiend in comic already?

:-O You're right... same colored eyes, same speech style and even the same childish innocence...

I feel like that just further verifies that MitD is a Pit Fiend. Also, it was reported that MitD would grow much bigger and this Pit Fiend is definitely bigger.

[Fyraltari]

Because it was funny to make it canon that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, real in one of the billions upon billions of previous worlds. Long gone, but not forgotten.

Grey Wolf

It does seem that at least one of them made it to the current world, though.

[hagnat]

did xykon drew a stick figure image onto the mountain, or was it a life-like image ?
would that be considered laser sculpting ?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

did xykon drew a stick figure image onto the mountain, or was it a life-like image ?

In OotS, those are one and the same.

GW

[TRH]

The thing about MitD is that its appearance is striking and unusual, going by everyone's reactions in SoD. I'd say that rules out even the epic dragons that might have the right mix of power and size to fit, because they'd still look to normal. And the same would probably go for a pit fiend, which would be far more likely to straight terrify a crowd of circusgoers rather than the weird mix of awe and other emotions they had seeing him.

[Peelee]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

What in this strip leads you to believe it was not a brief vignette from the previous world?

:-O You're right... same colored eyes, same speech style and even the same childish innocence...

I feel like that just further verifies that MitD is a Pit Fiend. Also, it was reported that MitD would grow much bigger and this Pit Fiend is definitely bigger.

What Im saying is, who cares about a reveal of a monster we've ready seen, who has been defeated by a less powerful party? Why bother with secrecy at that point?

Also nktwithstanding that out fiends can speak and the MitD speaking was shocking to the hunters. And notwithstanding that nobody reacts to the pit fiend as they reacted in the circus scene. And also that speech style was not even similar, nevermind the same.

[Psyren]

We know no such thing, really. And I'm not sure it's even true that we haven't seen any. Why else would Thor have brought up making a world of sentient movie theater snacks, other than to imply that those weird joke characters from the early days of the story were, in fact, escapees from that world?

1) I acknowledge the impossibility of proving the negative in this case (without being Rich of course), but I remain confident nonetheless that, regardless of whether refugees are possible or not, it won't be for Xykon.

2) Putting aside Rule of Funny for the movie theater snacks, or the possibility that we were in fact getting a glimpse into the prior world, they don't have to be refugees at all. For all we know, the gods could have had a standing agreement to remake a small group of them in this world purely for the purposes of that one gag. (The gods know they're in a comic, after all.)