OOTS #1260 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

It risks creating another snarl - the gods won't know if all the other gods are fine with them moving against Xykon unless they have a meeting to discuss it (and they should probably invite the Dark One to that meeting - somehow), and trying if they are not fine risks divine intervention.

They might have already agreed to do this (so no meeting needed) but they should still likely check with the Dark One in case he shows up to fight on Xykon's behalf.

Seeing as they mind wipe all the outsiders, any remnants of a precious world would negate that, and they presumably already have a standing agreement to eliminate remnants of previous worlds.

And, all that aside, as you point out they could just discuss and almost certainly come to agreement to end him. I doubt TDO would have any issues, seeing how Xykon treated goblinoids In general and his high priest specifically. There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to want Xykon to remain.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

[hungrycrow]

I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

Thor was about to kill the Dark One without running it by anyone so this checks out.

[dancrilis]

Seeing as they mind wipe all the outsiders, any remnants of a precious world would negate that, and they presumably already have a standing agreement to eliminate remnants of previous worlds.

I suspect that if the Snarl breaks out they pick up their things and race to their hidey hole to wait it out - don't pass go, don't wipe the minds of the outsiders, don't destroy any castles.

Then when they create the new world they wipe the outsiders minds (panel 3), but they wipe them for a reason and that reason is to stop them going nuts it might not apply to non-outsiders - whether they bother with cleanup left over by the snarl who can say, Durkon has the same info we do and his mind was put at ease by Hilgya planning to escape.

And, all that aside, as you point out they could just discuss and almost certainly come to agreement to end him. I doubt TDO would have any issues, seeing how Xykon treated goblinoids In general and his high priest specifically. There's no reason whatsoever for anyone to want Xykon to remain.

If the gods destroy the world then Hel gets what she wants and becomes queen of the north - she might decide to demonstrate her power by pissing off the good gods and keeping Xykon around (or she might think having a powerful undead creature who began before the 'dawn of time' wandering around sets the scene for her new world) - any other deity might feel something similiar.

I suspect the gods would have no issue with him getting wiped out but I suspect they wouldn't want to risk that they were wrong and get into a fight over it - and that is assuming he doesn't level up in the meantime to actually be a threat.

I don't think there would be any discussion, in the hypothetical where Xykon survived the end of the world, Thor would just zap him and none of the gods would object, why would they? He doesn't worship any of them so his soul isn't anybody's but the fiends'.

Thor probably doesn't want to empower the lower planes - leaving Xykon alone might be a net good, centuries/millennia in isolation might change his prespective on things, such as with this guy.

[DrivinAllNight]

LoL, {scrubbed} that joke hit the mark 🤣 on all 3 points 😆

[faustin]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

[Peelee]

I suspect that if the Snarl breaks out they pick up their things and race to their hidey hole to wait it out - don't pass go, don't wipe the minds of the outsiders, don't destroy any castles.

Then when they create the new world they wipe the outsiders minds (panel 3), but they wipe them for a reason and that reason is to stop them going nuts it might not apply to non-outsiders - whether they bother with cleanup left over by the snarl who can say, Durkon has the same info we do and his mind was put at ease by Hilgya planning to escape.



If the gods destroy the world then Hel gets what she wants and becomes queen of the north - she might decide to demonstrate her power by pissing off the good gods and keeping Xykon around (or she might think having a powerful undead creature who began before the 'dawn of time' wandering around sets the scene for her new world) - any other deity might feel something similiar.

I suspect the gods would have no issue with him getting wiped out but I suspect they wouldn't want to risk that they were wrong and get into a fight over it - and that is assuming he doesn't level up in the meantime to actually be a threat.



Thor probably doesn't want to empower the lower planes - leaving Xykon alone might be a net good, centuries/millenniain isolation might change his prespective on things, such as with this guy.

Everything you say is possible but also IMO exceedingly unlikely to the point that I don't even think it's worth seriously discussing.

[Fyraltari]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

I dunno, it feels on brand to me.

[dancrilis]

Everything you say is possible but also IMO exceedingly unlikely to the point that I don't even think it's worth seriously discussing.

When the conversation is on what happens to Xykon after the world is destroyed but he survives I think the question of it being a discussion that will lead to a meaningful outcome might have past.

I am just not sure that 'the gods make sure to kill/destroy everyone other then outsiders' is truely supported by the text.

[chrestomancy]

(apologies for the essay)

Having read through the comments on this strip, I think I have a slightly different view of Xykon than most of the rest of the readership. First off, I don't see

Spoiler: SoD

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Start of Darkness - Right-Eye betraying Xykon incident as proving that Xykon is smart. I mean, he was perceptive enough to see it coming, and had taken a fairly general precaution against that betrayal, but a truly smart person/creature/ungodly abomination would have removed the threat when they weren't in the middle of another potentially life-threatening battle. Xykon doesn't do this. He doesn't plan. He waits things out, sees where they go.

I loved Xykon's discussion with V during the soul splice scry-and-die attack, because it encapsulates Xykon's approach completely. He works on his own individual powers, he invests in whatever will give him an overwhelming advantage in any given fight, then... just lets things play out. He's deadly because he's been using and refining his magic to keep himself alive, with no real tactical acumen for nearly a century now, and it's pretty close to perfect. He may not be stupid, but intelligence is not the stat he relies on in battle. He is not a Wizard. He won't start thinking like one, because he hates everything they stand for. He doesn't figure out the deeply complex web of interactions and predict what people will do. He doesn't infer the capabilities and powers of others through Sherlockian feats of deduction. He simply relies upon his own combat experience and decades of practical application of sorcery to batter anything and everything into submission or death. Mostly death. He would prefer to lose while blasting his way against his opponent than to win by becoming like the Wizards he despises and who have always looked down on him.

The other key point I don't see anybody making here is, Xykon is deeply fond of Redcloak. All the comments about him preparing for inevitable betrayal seem to imply he sees Redcloak as just another expendable minion, but I don't agree. Yes, he is probably expecting Redcloak will betray him some day - as any evil minion does, eventually. But I think that Xykon would prefer to leave dealing with that until the absolute last moment. He won't act first, beyond having some spells and magic items set up in advance of the battle. Because he'd rather continue his spree as an Evil Lord for another day than improve his chances of ultimate survival by killing redcloak and handing the mantle to a random Bugbear right now.

When Xykon and Redcloak were nearly killed by the Sapphire Guard positive energy ghost army, Xykon wasn't bitter. He was reflective and understanding, and bonded a bit with Redcloak. Sure, there's been many times Xykon's been vicious, he refuses to let Redcloak heal his missing eye due to the perceived betrayal in battle, he doesn't trust him with his Phylactery, he creates comedic and insulting graffiti, but even then, Redcloak is the person Xykon is prepared to include alongside himself in his art. He is usually very direct with Redcloak, sets out the terms of their relationship, then gets on with things. When the two of them met in

Spoiler: SoD

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Start of Darkness, Xykon was old, and had run out of minions. For the last few decades, Redcloak has been his constant companion, and the MitD has been there for a long time now also

I don't think Xykon ever expected to rule the world. When he kicked this quest off, he was looking for a legacy, a big finale before he died. He's been enjoying every step of the way, more or less. Even when he's angry, he's fully immersed in being angry and lets loose, his interest in the grand quest is completely forgotten. He has his rampages, kills things out of hand and sets up petty, twisted acts of cruelty until he feels better. He won't move against the MitD or Redcloak until they actually betray him, because they are absolutely the last links to his mortal self, and the only things he cares about.

He was never a big-picture villain, who wanted to rule the world behind the scenes. If Redcloak dies before Xykon, my guess is he wouldn't even bother with the plan any further. Sure, he'd like to rule the world, but he's not planning to do much with it when he got there beyond make a giant statue to say he'd done it, then look for ways to amusingly torture people. The Redcloak/Xykon relationship isn't one of friends, both are too far twisted to feel anything like that, but it is still an emotionally close one, and Xykon does not want to lose Redcloak. Xykon uses Redcloak's guilt to bind him, and knows Redcloak has no love for him. He inflicts whatever harm he feels is necessary to keep Redcloak on the same path, even though it may be easier to just replace him. Because most of the fun Xykon has is a result of his relationship with Redcloak. He draws on the wall to make Redcloak angry. He could have drawn himself kicking Dorukan's butt, but without Redcloak to get angry about it, it isn't as much fun. He plays games with O'Chul in the acid tank in part because he wants to make Redcloak mad. He gets to goof off while pursuing world domination because he had Redcloak there to pick up all the slack, to play the adult. And sometimes they both get to have their evil yuks at the same time.

Xykon isn't keeping Redcloak alive because it's the smart thing to do. He isn't planning a complex strategy for when Redcloak betrays him, either. He's just riding this adventure enjoying every day, and when the final battle comes, he'll throw his all into that as well. Because it will be fun, and that is all that Xykon continues through undeath for.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

That would be giving away his secret

Spoiler: SoD Spoilers

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as regards MiTD that we see in SoD

[Frozenstep]

-snip-

Fantastic write up, there's a lot I agree with there.

But I still do read Xykon as smarter than he presents himself.

Spoiler: start of darkness spoiler

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He did plan for Right-Eye's betrayal, and yes, it would have been safer/smarter to take care of him before a life-threatening battle. But I think that moment of shattering the hope someone had of taking him out right at the last moment is what he was going for. He plans, but he'd rather plan it out in a way so that he ends up tricking his opponent at the last moment in a more devastating way, rather then in an earlier, safer for him way.

His plans might not be mastermind stuff or anything, but he's often had a smart and relatively simply counter to whatever trump card/strategy an enemy has. For him, that's all it takes sometimes, and he seems to relish in pulling it off right in front of them. He'd rather walk up to Roy and shatter his one-hit sword in his face rather then backing up, but only because he had the perfect counter.

[Psyren]

Julio Scoundrel thinks it's a good bet. So does Hilgya.

1) And clearly they're the first two mortals in billions of worlds to come up with the idea.

2) From their perspective it IS a good idea. Stick around on the planet and you risk the Gods being too late to save you from oblivion, as they've failed to do before. Both characters have (or at least, believe they have) cushy afterlives waiting for them, so maximizing the chances of being scooped up by the gods instead of unmade is rational.

It risks creating another snarl - the gods won't know if all the other gods are fine with them moving against Xykon unless they have a meeting to discuss it (and they should probably invite the Dark One to that meeting - somehow), and trying if they are not fine risks divine intervention.

They might have already agreed to do this (so no meeting needed) but they should still likely check with the Dark One in case he shows up to fight on Xykon's behalf.

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

[dancrilis]

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

It isn't really a matter of the Dark One - it could be some minor elven deity, or some southern demigod of oddness or whatever.

For that matter having an intelligent powerful non-divine creature running around the new world might allow for that creature to immediately start collecting worshippers and so ascend without the direct backing of any pantheon and so restart the Loki plan to seal the snarl forever.

Ultimately Xykon as a Lich is simply not that important on a divine level to bother destroying outside of anything other then pettiness, and him ascending might be very useful - seperately he could be useful for 'random deity here' as part of some long term scheme for the new world, and so attacking him risks intervention and a potential other snarl.

[Peelee]

I find this hilarious. We don't even know if TDO cares about the goblins, yet he's going to go to bat for Xykon? At a point in time where the Plan would have already explicitly failed?

Only Plan A would have already failed. Plan B would have already succeeded. Which, ya know, doesn't bode any better for ol' X.

It
Ultimately Xykon as a Lich is simply not that important on a divine level to bother destroying outside of anything other then pettiness

The gods systematically destroy the universe to rebuild from the ground up. You're thinking of it as important enough to destroy, but everyone gets destroyed or mind wiped. You're coming at it from the wrong way. He's simply not important enough to let slip through.

Its not like Inevitables aren't a thing, and that "attempting to escape the destruction of the universe" isn't something that is right up their alley. Toss enough of those out there and Xykon will fall no problem, along with any other stragglers hiding out in the planes.

[Fyraltari]

Fantastic write up, there's a lot I agree with there.

But I still do read Xykon as smarter than he presents himself.

Spoiler: start of darkness spoiler

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He did plan for Right-Eye's betrayal, and yes, it would have been safer/smarter to take care of him before a life-threatening battle. But I think that moment of shattering the hope someone had of taking him out right at the last moment is what he was going for. He plans, but he'd rather plan it out in a way so that he ends up tricking his opponent at the last moment in a more devastating way, rather then in an earlier, safer for him way.

His plans might not be mastermind stuff or anything, but he's often had a smart and relatively simply counter to whatever trump card/strategy an enemy has. For him, that's all it takes sometimes, and he seems to relish in pulling it off right in front of them. He'd rather walk up to Roy and shatter his one-hit sword in his face rather then backing up, but only because he had the perfect counter.

In general, he seems to treat most things like a game. As long as his phylactery is accounted for, he feels invincible. There's no game-over for him, only reloading a save, so he's not going to sacrifice fun in the name of caution.

[Thermophille]

*snip*

Doesn't really affect your point, but I'm like 80% certain Xykon was lying about the ring to RC.

[CountDVB]

Something just clicked for me. Xykon's secret astral fortress. He plans to let the world burn and laugh his ass off from his SAF.
Then once the new world is made he'll have easier minions to dominate.

I wonder if Redcloak considered this possibility... that does sound like Xykon...

[CountDVB]

I'm actually surprised Xykon's drawing was so puerile, instead of something more horrible like draining Redcloak to death, trapping his soul in the gem or feeding his body to the MiD.

I mean, at his core, he's an immature sassy brat, the same one that would've fried ants with magnifying glass and pull wings off of flies.

Really, with him like that and Redcloak as the moody angsty team refusing to own up to his mistakes, Team Evil consists of two overgrown children and a literal kid with MitD.

Wonder what this means.

[Thermophille]

I mean, at his core, he's an immature sassy brat, the same one that would've fried ants with magnifying glass and pull wings off of flies.

Really, with him like that and Redcloak as the moody angsty team refusing to own up to his mistakes, Team Evil consists of two overgrown children and a literal kid with MitD.

Wonder what this means.

That harming others is usually a result of a lack of personal fulfillment?

[brian 333]

Xykon already belongs to Hel. He's a Northerner, he is undead, and he is Evil.

He might, if anyone cared to listen, make an argument to be tossed into his Alignment Plane, but I guarantee nobody in Hel's domain will care enough to take the rare, juicy beefburger soul of Xykon and toss it out. Certainly not anyone who does not wish to be in Hel's next bowl of chili.

[dancrilis]

The gods systematically destroy the universe to rebuild from the ground up. You're thinking of it as important enough to destroy, but everyone gets destroyed or mind wiped.

The outsiders get mindwiped to prevent them going crazy - there is little reason to assume that Hel wipes the minds of any undead she has in her domain to prevent them going crazy.

That the world gets destroyed is set, that outsiders get mind wiped is set, what happens to magical beasts, humanoids*, undead, fey, etc is unknown.

*they likely morph into outsiders over a long length of time, there exist a number of outsiders with that backstory.

[Peelee]

Xykon already belongs to Hel. He's a Northerner, he is undead, and he is Evil.

Hel is the northern god of the dishonored dead. Xykon doesnt believe in an honor system, and it's unlikely that Hel's domain is in the Abyss, IMO.

[danielxcutter]

Hel is NE I think?

[dancrilis]

Xykon ... He's a Northerner

Is he?
I might be forgetting a reference can you direct me to one?

[Larsaan]

Hel is the northern god of the dishonored dead.

That is one of her domains, although mainly in relation to dwarves. She introduced herself as "Goddess of Death", she has exclusive dibs on creating northern vampires, and from what we've seen the rest of the pantheon consider undead to be "her" creatures. Doesn't mean Xykon's soul is automatically hers, since you usually have to worship a deity (if only reluctantly) to go to their afterlife, but I don't think any of the others would dispute it if she staked a claim.

[bunsen_h]

The other key point I don't see anybody making here is, Xykon is deeply fond of Redcloak.

I don't see that at all. Xykon finds Redcloak to be highly useful. I don't think he's deeply fond of anyone apart from himself. I'm not sure that he's capable of being fond of anyone.

The outsiders get mindwiped to prevent them going crazy - there is little reason to assume that Hel wipes the minds of any undead she has in her domain to prevent them going crazy.

That the world gets destroyed is set, that outsiders get mind wiped is set, what happens to magical beasts, humanoids*, undead, fey, etc is unknown.

*they likely morph into outsiders over a long length of time, there exist a number of outsiders with that backstory.

Seems to me that it's important that nobody gets missed, or word will get out, which will cause trouble in future cycles.

[drazen]

Funny. Most of my elders say the pipes CAN'T stop flowing at a certain age.

Depends what's going on in the pipes. A close relative of mine nearly died from a cancerous obstruction of the biliary duct. He described the aftermath, even with a stent, as "trying to pee out glue."

[brian 333]

Hel is NE I think?

...He might, if anyone cared to listen, make an argument to be tossed into his Alignment Plane, but I guarantee nobody in Hel's domain will care enough to take the rare, juicy beefburger soul of Xykon and toss it out. Certainly not anyone who does not wish to be in Hel's next bowl of chili.

Is he (a Northener)?
I might be forgetting a reference can you direct me to one?

I don't have a reference, save that his pre-undeath story appears to take place in Eugene's homeland. I certainly could be wrong, in which case Nergal gets him. I rule out Southerner because he lacks the distinct accent.

[F.Harr]

Yay! What's-his-name survives to to Zykon's absentmindedness!

He seems to be getting thoughtful.