Running Low Fantasy?

[Townopolis]

Recently I've decided to run a low fantasy game. I'm specifically thinking of something close to the early-mid medieval ages; most people who can afford decent armor and weapons are knights, kings and castles are the dominant terrestrial power, and religious monks hold most of the knowledge. Wizards will be rare, priests will channel divine power, but in a very low key way (unless their really big news) monsters aside from a few grunt races will be special, and most characters will already be in a place of at least a little privilege at the beginning. However, I'm not sure how to model this with a game system. Iron Heroes sprang to mind, but even that has some problems.

How would you go about running a game in which the heroes aren't meant to be high powered saiyan warriors? They're knights, yeomen, clergy, and the like.

How would you deal with having chainmail be the top tier armor available?

What kind of changes would you use to level combat and noncombat situations in terms of involvement and depth?

What do you do with a retinue when you don't want them involved? (squires, apprentices, hangers-on, etc...)

If regular D&D was used, how would modify existing classes to better fit a low-magic world? (Ranger, & bard especially)

More impostantly, what system would you recommend using?

[Tempest Fennac]

There is a no magic variant of the Ranger (page 91 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf ) I suppose Arcane Casters could be modified so that eloborate rituals with lots of componants are needed to "store" spells, and Clerics could use herbs and potions rather then magic to heal people, or they could get a Wis-based version of the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality. I can't think of anymore advice, but I'll tell yo if aI think of anything.

[Swordguy]

Don't use D&D.

Just...don't even bother. Find a copy of Iron Heroes or some such, and use that. I've tried. Believe me, I've tried. I LOVE low fantasy. D&D just sucks horribly at it.

I have a list. The list is of house rules to make D&D more low/realistic fantasy. It's over 30 pages long, filled with modifications to classes, prestige classes, equipment, magic, psionics, and monsters. And it STILL doesn't get it done.

It's just. Not. Worth. It.

[Actana]

I'm currently running two games set in a modified-to-my-preference medieval world. It's a mid to low magic world, depending on place, but I don't set restrictions on the PCs.

So, lets see what I can answer.

Recently I've decided to run a low fantasy game. I'm specifically thinking of something close to the early-mid medieval ages; most people who can afford decent armor and weapons are knights, kings and castles are the dominant terrestrial power, and religious monks hold most of the knowledge. Wizards will be rare, priests will channel divine power, but in a very low key way (unless their really big news) monsters aside from a few grunt races will be special, and most characters will already be in a place of at least a little privilege at the beginning. However, I'm not sure how to model this with a game system. Iron Heroes sprang to mind, but even that has some problems.

I personally have the Highfather church (the dominant religion) outlaw any kind of arcane magic that isn't fueled by their god. (Whatever they mean with that. ) Magical armor could be done nonmagically. It takes a very very skillful blacksmith to create a weapon with such quality it is considered a +1 weapon. Other effects though will still give trouble.

How would you go about running a game in which the heroes aren't meant to be high powered saiyan warriors? They're knights, yeomen, clergy, and the like.

Start low level... uh, I don't really know about this either.

How would you deal with having chainmail be the top tier armor available?

I personally wouldn't like it. I'm no expert on stuff like this, but full-plates were available, but they were just so very expensive and cumbersome that nobody actually used them. Chainmail (or breastplates) would be much more common and practical than full plates. I would make full plates still available, but make chainmail more tempting in some way.

What kind of changes would you use to level combat and noncombat situations in terms of involvement and depth?

I don't actually know. If you have spellcasters, just play it as it is done. If not, make them face non-magical foes more than normal. I don't really know what to answer to this.

What do you do with a retinue when you don't want them involved? (squires, apprentices, hangers-on, etc...)

If you have squires, you most likely have a base of operations somewhere. Same thing with apprentices. Keep them at your castle/keep/fortress/tavern. Keep them busy by ordering them to clean your other armors and stuff. Give them messages to deliver to someone.

If regular D&D was used, how would modify existing classes to better fit a low-magic world? (Ranger, & bard especially)

Rangers have a few nonspellcasting variants out there. Complete Champion, Complete Warrior, they spring to mind first. Bards are a bit more troublesome. I haven't really thought about them yet.

More impostantly, what system would you recommend using?

I would recommend Iron Heroes for the low magic feeling. I don't own it, but it seems a book that is perfect for it.


Hope that helps and sorry for not answering well on everything.

[deadseashoals]

You could try A Game of Thrones d20. I haven't played it myself so I can't say how good it is, but it's likely worth at least a browse if you can borrow a copy or check it out at your LGS.

[Matthew]

You want Conan D20. There's also the Feudal Lords Campaign Setting, which is supposed to facilitate low fantasy play. Basically, though, you need a Block/Parry System.

[Skjaldbakka]

The model I use for low-magic D&D:

Remove all classes with full spellcasting, including bards (actually I just give the bard a ranger/paladin style arcane spell progression).

This leaves you with ranger and paladin as the spellcasting classes (and possibly modified bard). The highest caster level you can get becomes a 10. This significantly reduces the amount and power of magic items available.

. . . more later, gotta go home now.

[Yami]

I would actually suggest D20 Modern if you have it. It works well for creating more realistic characters, and though you can grab at a magical Prc, no one gets to start as such, then you just have the equipment geared for your era and you'll be set. Magical arms and armour could be the things of legend, with entire quests revolving around them, and loot would be spent building a castle and grabbing servants rather than on the next magical gizmo you want.

I don't think it's too difficult as long as the DM remebers that CRs generally assume the players get the magical goodies the setting denies them.

[Blanks]

Have you debated this with your group?
If they want to play this sort of campaign i think DnD works fine at the lower levels.

Make wizards and clerics NPC only. Don't give out too many magic items.

thats it? :)

[Pronounceable]

Don't use DnD. Trying to houserule it into low magic is impossible. You are better off making a system from scratch.

[Charity]

Harnmaster would suit you down to the ground... it is designed for this setting.

[Leadfeathermcc]

Try E6 you already own the game, and your players know the rules.

[Project_Mayhem]

I can't belive no-ones mentioned Warhammer roleplay yet. For those who don't know, very gritty low fantasy.

Wizards will be rare, priests will channel divine power, but in a very low key way (unless their really big news) monsters aside from a few grunt races will be special, and most characters will already be in a place of at least a little privilege at the beginning

aside from possibly the monsters, all this is the case - something like 1 in 10000 odd people have the ability and temperment to succeed at magic, (using the RAW character generation thats actually about 1 in 50 human PCS), priests only gain powerful magic late in their career, and the PCs are normally just ordinary dogbodys at first. If you focus on human enemies, and keep the bloody skaven out of things, you can keep monsters to a minimum.

Also, if you don't like the setting then hey - change it, or just keep the rules.

[weenie]

d20 modern sounds like the right solution. To cast a spell you'd have to be lvl6(i think) so that would make magic a lot less available.

[nerulean]

I'm running low magic D&D in the new year, and my first step was to disallow all magic. Then I wrote up the main casting class for the world as a homebrew with roughly bardic progression and beguiler-style spells known so I can control exactly which spells are cast. I upped the casting time on several of the spells to make them more ritualised and less combat-useful.

Non-casting paladin and ranger both use the feat variant from Complete Champ. Sadly, much though I adore the class, I can't think of a really satisfactory way to sort out the bard; maybe nix his casting and up his hit dice to a level where he can tank, or improve his bard song abilities, or just use the marshal from the Miniatures Handbook instead, not that it's anywhere near as fun.

Provided you get rid of monsters with casting as well, you should be okay as far as CRs go. Watch out for things like poisons or diseases, which can be a real pain in the backside if you don't have access to cleric casting, and work out how you want to sort out healing. I've ended up with a homebrew injury points system as well as using the armour as DR and class defence variant rules from Unearthed Arcana.

[Swooper]

I can't belive no-ones mentioned Warhammer roleplay yet. For those who don't know, very gritty low fantasy.



aside from possibly the monsters, all this is the case - something like 1 in 10000 odd people have the ability and temperment to succeed at magic, (using the RAW character generation thats actually about 1 in 50 human PCS), priests only gain powerful magic late in their career, and the PCs are normally just ordinary dogbodys at first. If you focus on human enemies, and keep the bloody skaven out of things, you can keep monsters to a minimum.

Also, if you don't like the setting then hey - change it, or just keep the rules.

I will second that. WHFRP seems to be a very decent system (save for perhaps the skill system - it rivals AD&D 2nd Edition's Nonweapon Proficiencies badness) for depicting gritty, low powered fantasy. Magic is nowhere near as overpowering as in D&D, mainly because using it will eventually turn you hopping mad and tainted by Chaos.

Divorcing the system from the fluff is propably not too hard, although the system is built for the Warhammer World and the Empire. You mainly just need to make up a new source of daemonic influence, wickedness and magic in your world instead of Chaos, and you're pretty set I think.

[J.Gellert]

I'm throwing another vote for Conan RPG. Even if you don't use it as a whole (the magic system is weird) you can still st-, borrow ideas from it, like listing equipment costs in silver pieces.

[Project_Mayhem]

Magic is nowhere near as overpowering as in D&D, mainly because using it will eventually turn you hopping mad and tainted by Chaos.

Yeah, I think that hits the nail on the head as to why I like the magic system, the chance that everytime you casta powerful spell you can cause all kinds of incedental horror. I think my favorite is the possibillity of causing everything in a 10 yard radius to uncontrolably soil itself. Hmmm, or the one where you bite your tongue off.

Seriously though, I think part of the low fantasy appeal comes from the common persons reaction to magic and the unnatural. Namely "Burn him". Especially when they see elves. Oh yes, everybody fears and hates them.

[Kompera]

Don't listen to the nay-sayers, D&D can work just fine as a low fantasy game. I've run a bronze age, low fantasy setting before, and it only takes minimal house rules to make things work.

How to limit Arcane and Divine magic (my game was AD&D, but the same concepts apply well to 3.5): Must multi-class, every other level must be a non-caster. This effectively limits magic to 10th caster level, and that assumes that the campaign is going to reach 20th level, which mine did not. So if your campaign ends up at about 6th level you'll have a 6th Fighter and a 3rd Sorcerer/3rd Rogue as characters, for example. Or a 3rd Druid/3rd Barbarian. But no 6th Wizards or 6th Clerics. Not so unbalancing with that simple rule change. No need to fret over spell lists, the class level limitations takes care of everything, from number of spells known to maximum level of spells being slung around. Even beyond this, actively encourage multi-classing. A 3rd Fighter/3rd Rogue will be less "high fantasy" than a 6th Fighter or a 6th Rogue. Multi-classing only becomes an issue when there are piles of core classes and PrC to dip into, splitting up on core classes will tend to make the characters a bit more broad without becoming huge powerhouses of specialization.

Go very easy on the non-core source books. The core Barbarian should work fine, but not the "I get Pounce" Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (or whatever, I do not own that sourcebook)
Watch out for Feat synergy. Both Metamagic and physical. You probably don't want Shocktroopers in your game.

I had all characters start as Human, and allowed character retirements and death replacements to be of other races which were met after the start of the campaign. Death or retirement replacements started at one level below the lowest level living member of the group. I might ease up on that were I to do another similar campaign, but it did tend to encourage the group to keep to their humans, which furthers a low fantasy objective. While you can certainly have a low fantasy campaign and a group of Elves and Halflings, that didn't suit my game concept very well.

Carefully control the magic items you hand out, and make most of them simple + items and not Wands/Staves/Rods or Wondrous Items.

For my bronze age setting, a iron meteor was a significant treasure. Armor or weapons made with it were +2 but non-magical, given that the weapons could pierce the bronze armor easier and the armor could resist the bronze weapons much better. Bog iron was +1, still iron but with more impurities. And the meteor or bog iron was not some huge quantity. The meteor might be a 8" diameter sphere, and after working it (with the expected difficulties for smiths used to working with bronze) it might turn out 2-3 items tops.

Have fun!

[Gygaxphobia]

Don't use D&D it's not built for it, that's why there's so few melee options.

Conan is good, Riddle of Steel has some interesting ideas and is quote playable, espcially if you like loads of dice.
But Iron Heroes is by far and away the best, just play my game to find out ;)

[Frosty]

Kompera, the game you describe isn't really DnD anymore. It just doesn't feel right. The whole thing I love about DnD is customization.

[Jayabalard]

personally, I kind of like GURPS for low magic; it's a universal system, meaning that it's definitly got the framework to provide lots of options for toning down magic.

It also tends to be quite a bit deadlier than D20; battles are something always have the chance to kill you.

[Kompera]

Compera, the game you describe isn't really DnD anymore. It just doesn't feel right. The whole thing I love about DnD is customization.

It's fairly close to AD&D, the single largest house rule is the restriction on levels for casters. Others have described simply restricting the casters to the NPCs and haven't received any such "it's not D&D anymore" complaints.

Core D&D 3.5 has a decent amount of customization possible, but not much of anything is even "close" to the the abomination which is D&D 3.5 using all possible sources. Sure, you get an obscene amount of customization, but at what cost, in both dollars and sense?

Anyways, my group and I had a blast playing skin wearing and flint spear using primitives with bronze weapons being highly cherished and lumps of iron bring the near equivalent of what Adamantite is in a typical campaign. I know it may not suit all players, but the OP was looking for feedback on a low fantasy campaign, and this campaign is the only context in which I've run or run in such a setting.

[puppyavenger]

another for D20 modern (it's Free!) or WFRP.

[hamlet]

Harnmnaster. It's the best for low magic and low fantasy.

[....]

Make max level 7 or 8.

[Townopolis]

Thanks for all the input so far. I have Iron Heroes, and I'll take a look at the others as soon as I get a chance.

You say D20 Modern can be gotten free? Where can I find this nugget of material?

[puppyavenger]

The SRD
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd