MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Ruck]

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards.

This one makes the most intuitive sense to me, particularly once you consider "Sometimes, I eat to fill the loneliness."

I'm not confident enough to have certainty about it, and I'm open to other explanations and if further details reveal more, but it makes sense to me just on that level.

[Taelas]

If it's not a D&D monster, under what criteria could we consider it "possible to guess"? A big reason for focusing on D&D 3.5 is that those are the rules OOTS operates under, and so we can readily study various monsters' powers under those rules to see if they fit what we've seen from MitD. If it's not a D&D 3.5 monster, perhaps it could be guessed, but far more would be open to interpretation about how its powers would translate into this setting.

Possible is a long way from being easy. The context for that quote was, "I.e. I didn't make it up." As long as its abilities are based on lore about the creature, it fits just fine.

And that's the flipside of it, really. It's easy to poke holes in various cases for monsters, but it's much harder to come up with a better fit than what's been proposed already.

But that's the main problem. There is no good fit. Protean is a copout, since it doesn't actually have any innate ability that it could "dig deep and find" to help the escape—aside from what is basically a mulligan—and completely ignores the main physical characteristics the creature possesses in order to jump through hoops in to try and make it fit. Protean is just the most malleable creature that can be massaged to cover the most bases.

Aside, since I'm thinking about it: Are there any creatures with Wish as an extraordinary ability? Part of me thinks that's the best fit for the Escape, since V and O-Chul literally land on top of Hinjo, and it's very easy for me to picture MitD wording a Wish like "I want to send O-Chul and his elf friend back to their paladin friends." Of course, it's also not too hard to picture MitD using detect thoughts or some other similar ability to read V's mind to figure out where they came from, then use Greater Teleport or what have you, and the direct landing is just an extra punchline.

There are several, but for various reasons, they don't fit. It's through shapeshifting into one of them that Protean gets around the escape scene. I fully agree that wish or miracle is the best fit for the escape, but just like Protean, they're also the most broad. It's somewhat better, though, since they wouldn't be finding a different ability somewhere else, and there isn't any other ability that really fits that we know of.

[Ruck]

But that's the main problem. There is no good fit.

It's not supposed to be so obvious that we all figure out what MitD is years before the reveal. If you find a good fit, propose it. Until then, I'm putting my money on the best fit I've found given the possibilities I know.

Protean is a copout, since it doesn't actually have any innate ability that it could "dig deep and find" to help the escape—aside from what is basically a mulligan—

That ability-- to "assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action" and "[gain] the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics"-- is an innate ability. It doesn't not become one because you think it's too powerful or broad. I mean, the Monster in the Darkness is supposed to be preposterously powerful, given how two quite powerful creatures themselves in Xykon and Redcloak speak of him.

and completely ignores the main physical characteristics the creature possesses in order to jump through hoops in to try and make it fit.

How so?

There are several, but for various reasons, they don't fit. It's through shapeshifting into one of them that Protean gets around the escape scene.

I just wanted to make sure they existed, because then my thoughts on the most likely specific explanation as to how the Escape scene played out also fits for a Protean.

EDIT: Apparently this is far from the first time I've inquired on this topic. In fact, it was one of the very first things I asked about in my early days posting here, after getting caught up on the MitD discussion:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1283

[Schroeswald]

To this day the only argument against the protean that has actually been convincing to me is that getting that teleport ability is awkward and it’s not a perfect fit. However every other possibility has a a stronger argument against it than that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More likely, I think, is a relatively obscure monster that isn't a D&D creature at all. Relatively obscure because it hasn't been narrowed down to one that happens to fit. I don't have a suggestion myself, it just seems far too narrow to focus on creatures from D&D when I don't think any of the requirements warrants it.

We are not "focusing" on D&D creatures at all. You are free to propose any creature you want. We have a non-D&D creature in the FBS list, for Heaven't sake.

GW

[Ruck]

To this day the only argument against the protean that has actually been convincing to me is that getting that teleport ability is awkward and it’s not a perfect fit. However every other possibility has a a stronger argument against it than that.

Right. I mean, I'm fine with it because an explanation exists that fits into the rules as written, but the bolded is really important. So much more has to be stretched or even outright discarded for every other candidate to fit. (And that's before we get to the thematic resonance to the story, where the Protean is really the only monster I've found that actually carries any such resonance with the Monster's character arc.)

We are not "focusing" on D&D creatures at all. You are free to propose any creature you want. We have a non-D&D creature in the FBS list, for Heaven't sake.

GW

And that's the other thing. People are free to propose and suggest whatever they want. It's hard to find good fits, but no one is stopping anyone from trying. It's certainly easier to say what you think it can't be than what you think it can, though. And there's probably a reason, at this point, why it's so hard to find good fits that haven't already been proposed.

My position is pretty simple. I've found the Protean to be by a significant margin the best fit for the MitD, and I've explained why at length. I'm open to hearing new ideas if someone finds a genuinely good fit. I'm open to responding to arguments or evidence against the Protean or against the ideas I've laid out as to why I think that's the answer.

But I don't put too much stock in people simply asserting it's a bad fit without argument or evidence. Or people declaring it doesn't "feel right" to them for some reason that has nothing to do with the criteria we know ("it's too powerful," "it's not iconic / instantly recognizable enough," "it will be obvious when we figure it out so we must not have figured it out yet," etc.). Or people outright misrepresenting what it can do (the repeated cases of people insisting it's a complete shapeshifter that can do anything, for example).

[Chronos]

Most people keep on focusing on monsters published in D&D sourcebooks, and I really think that's a dead end, especially with regards to the more obscure D&D monsters. Rich never said that Monster-San existed in D&D before he put him in the story; he just said that he existed. And he's been working for a long time at making the comic accessible to folks unfamiliar with D&D: When Monster-San is eventually revealed, it's going to be something that most of the readership, not just the D&D players, will be able to go "Oh, OK, it's <one of those>!". Now, some monsters that pre-existed D&D have made it into the rulebooks, but those are mostly going to be found in the first volume, and I think we've pretty well settled that none of those are a good fit. So I think it's likely that he's not in any D&D rulebook at all.

[Schroeswald]

Of the three biggest scenes of evidence on what the MiTD is the Protean is far and away the best fit for two of them. Nothing comes close to working as well in the circus and we’ve found nothing that is all that close in strength to the protean, especially at the size the MiTD currently is, making it the best fit for the tower scene. While I am inclined to label the Escape Scene as more important than those the Protean still fits okay enough there as well.

[Eric the White]

Barghests gain strength as they eat others. "For every three suitable corpses a barghest devours, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1". ([snipped link]
(Once they reach 27 such corpses, they evolve into a greater Barghest, weirdly losing strength in the process).

To be clear, like I said earlier, barghest have multiple issues - no teleportation, no real explanation for the circus scene, and even at 28 corpses, it's strength is 25, which is nothing to write home about.

ETA: I am unsure what version Eric the White is talking about, but [snipped link] don't seems to come with stats, so not sure how they differ from the d20 srd one which is my usual go-to for official versions of monsters.

GW

That is the version/source I'm talking about, but you can also see Dragon issue 26 in a PDF scan online. I think it works because seeing something that looks like you turning into a wolf like creature can be disturbing. Think about how humans feel about the scenes where we see them turning into werewolves. He's particularly disturbing to a audience of goblins. He might not get the same reaction from a group of adventurers, or us when we finally see his form and fail to be repulsed just due to the limits of the medium. Also in that source it says they get access to numerous spell like abilities, but don't list them all. One could be teleportation. The source also talks about a greater barghest (which the MitD's father would have to be given the life cycle) needing to be housed in a holed out mountain because he's so big, yet the lesser ones are medium. I think the lack of stats actually helps the case here because the strength can be whatever the Giant wants it to be without him breaking the published "rules."

Sorry for the lack of links, I dont have that permission yet.

[Crusher]

That is the version/source I'm talking about, but you can also see Dragon issue 26 in a PDF scan online. I think it works because seeing something that looks like you turning into a wolf like creature can be disturbing. Think about how humans feel about the scenes where we see them turning into werewolves. He's particularly disturbing to a audience of goblins. He might not get the same reaction from a group of adventurers, or us when we finally see his form and fail to be repulsed just due to the limits of the medium. Also in that source it says they get access to numerous spell like abilities, but don't list them all. One could be teleportation. The source also talks about a greater barghest (which the MitD's father would have to be given the life cycle) needing to be housed in a holed out mountain because he's so big, yet the lesser ones are medium. I think the lack of stats actually helps the case here because the strength can be whatever the Giant wants it to be without him breaking the published "rules."

Sorry for the lack of links, I dont have that permission yet.

Eh. MitD is particularly *not* disturbing to the goblins. The human-looking folks are the ones feeling weird and queasy while the goblins are cheering. Maybe because they’ve seen him repeatedly, but we don’t know. Also, lack of published stats is a double-edged sword. Sure, you can interpret it however you like, but it makes getting the fluff dead-on accurate really important, because that’s all you’ve got, right? The MitD isn’t “strong”. It’s “awesomely, earth-shatteringly strong”. So if you lack stats and the description says the creature “can get really strong”, convincing people that it’s even in the ballpark is going to be a heavy lift, so to speak.

Worth noting that a Greater Barghast can have a STR of 29, which doesn’t quite get there but is close.

[Eric the White]

Eh. MitD is particularly *not* disturbing to the goblins. The human-looking folks are the ones feeling weird and queasy while the goblins are cheering. Maybe because they’ve seen him repeatedly, but we don’t know. Also, lack of published stats is a double-edged sword. Sure, you can interpret it however you like, but it makes getting the fluff dead-on accurate really important, because that’s all you’ve got, right? The MitD isn’t “strong”. It’s “awesomely, earth-shatteringly strong”. So if you lack stats and the description says the creature “can get really strong”, convincing people that it’s even in the ballpark is going to be a heavy lift, so to speak.

Worth noting that a Greater Barghast can have a STR of 29, which doesn’t quite get there but is close.

Man I was misremembering that scene. I was thinking it was all goblin attendees. good catch. On the other stuff, I suppose I may have a slightly different expectation of how "perfect" the Giants reveal is going to be. He's never really shown a huge fidelity to the rules of D&D. I don't think the monster is going to perfect in the sense that it was this thing that (1)we all know about and (2)matches the published rules perfectly and (3)few/none of us guessed it. There's going to be some slop in one or more of those things. I don't believe he will be able to show us something that causes us to "recoil in abject horror" both because of the cartoon nature, and because we the readers generally view him favorably and will judge him based on that, as well as his appearance. I expect similar grey area in his stats/rules/ and how well the monster matches the big scenes.

I what I do expect is that his reveal will be pretty epic and will serve the story and not some sourcebook.

[halfeye]

Of the three biggest scenes of evidence on what the MiTD is the Protean is far and away the best fit for two of them. Nothing comes close to working as well in the circus and we’ve found nothing that is all that close in strength to the protean, especially at the size the MiTD currently is, making it the best fit for the tower scene. While I am inclined to label the Escape Scene as more important than those the Protean still fits okay enough there as well.

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random. That is not a good fit.

[Carl]

For the voting put me down for Neh-Thalggu for now. I may change my mind later.

Now to engage in a bit of "throwing mud at the wall" on other possibilities:

I also like the suggestion of an Inverse Template earlier, I've suspected he's some kind of template for a while but i've never seen a template monster combo i like enough to go "thats it".

Also random aside question, what happens to gods when they die in D&D, are there any remenant types that could produce somthing like the MitD?

[Darth Paul]

Gee, #1260l got me flustered.

So, should we or should we not start looking for creatures who prefer eating dwarves? Xykon "thought he read it somewhere" but MitD himself doesn't think he finds dwarves a delicacy. Then again, there are a lot of things he doesn't know about his own species (including what species he is).

Is this a clue, or not?

There's also the "feeling that something has changed" as far as his constant hunger. Does this or could this mean he has been eating all this time to build mass for some impending growth spurt or tranformation? That might argue towards being a Slaad of some kind, even though many other factors seem to point away from that creature.

I'm so confused.

[Squire Doodad]

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random. That is not a good fit.

As has been explained, there is a mechanical method by which the Protean can avoid this and a thematic reason for MitD to be doing that. It's a relatively minor issue compared to, say, the Uvuudam.


On the "liking dwarves" line:
I think we should relegate it to being a bonus point if it's included in a creature, but negligible if not. Like how we don't take points off if a monster lacks a shout-centric ability, but it's a point in favor if it can.

There's also the "feeling that something has changed" as far as his constant hunger. Does this or could this mean he has been eating all this time to build mass for some impending growth spurt or tranformation? That might argue towards being a Slaad of some kind, even though many other factors seem to point away from that creature.

On one hand, this is most likely a variation of the "MitD eats to fill the loneliness, but now he has more important things to do than eat" argument - but I wouldn't be surprised if MitD's species has an obscure growth spurt fluff somewhere that he's on the verge of.

[Peelee]

Are those actual examples given in the template entry? Or just you extrapolating from it?

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards. But the "about to metamorphosize" theory also makes quite a bit of sense.

This one makes the most intuitive sense to me, particularly once you consider "Sometimes, I eat to fill the loneliness."

I'm not confident enough to have certainty about it, and I'm open to other explanations and if further details reveal more, but it makes sense to me just on that level.

This is in line with my thoughts. MitD ate due to immature boredom and lack of interest in actually doing other things. IMO the loss of permanent appetite is indicative of him growing as a person, not biological changes.

[RandomToon]

Are those actual examples given in the template entry? Or just you extrapolating from it?

Also, my personal opinion on the "no longer hungry" thing was that it was some kind of emotional change, in that MitD no longer has to fill an emotional emptiness with constant eating since he now has his own self-determined goals that he's working towards. But the "about to metamorphosize" theory also makes quite a bit of sense.

I am extrapolating in part on the actual monster entry, and on how versions of it have been presented over the course 5 editions. Examples that specific are unlikely - I can post the actual text, if you want.

I agree about the hungry part.

[Jaziggy]

Are there any creatures with Wish as an extraordinary ability? Part of me thinks that's the best fit for the Escape, since V and O-Chul literally land on top of Hinjo, and it's very easy for me to picture MitD wording a Wish like "I want to send O-Chul and his elf friend back to their paladin friends." Of course, it's also not too hard to picture MitD using detect thoughts or some other similar ability to read V's mind to figure out where they came from, then use Greater Teleport or what have you, and the direct landing is just an extra punchline.

100% agree, and I think most would, that Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the tidiest fit for the escape. Sending people away in exactly that fashion is a listed effect of those spells. MITD is not a caster, so your instinct that it should be an extraordinary ability is also shared by pretty much everyone.

This is what led me to look at literally every sourcebook I could find, hunting for Wish/RR critters. I never found any, and the closest I came was the xenocrysth, which is an interesting idea but certainly not as deeply satisfying as some kind of psionic sorcerous super-ogre big boss loitering at the back page of a Forgotten Realms epic level adventure kit.

I'm inclined towards Reality Revision because there's a quality of 'he wants it bad enough and makes it happen' to the scene. But even incorporating Wish and Miracle, the list of critters in mainstream books is very, very short.

Dragons
Genies
Glabrezu and some other demons
Zodar
Protean (via it's ability to assume a form of some creature that can Wish)

There's nothing else (I'm probably missing a couple) in the main manuals you'd want to look at- epic level handbook, monster manual, expanded psionics handbook, etc. Of course you can get to Wish/Reality Revision quite easily with classes or templating critters, but that's frowned upon around here since you can template up pretty much anything Large or smaller and get there- it's a phrenic psuedonatural paragon kobold... no wait it's a phrenic psuedonatural paragon awakened chicken... no wait it's a phrenic... you get the idea. Besides if it's going to be that it's going to be a phrenic psuedonatural paragon Hollyphant because that would be the most hilarious possible thing.

There are things that can Wish or Reality Revise as a SPELL- a lich, a demilich, and your more classable and humanoid psionic or sorcerous creatures: Githyanki, Illithids, some epic-level Maenad.

Overall we've got three sort of broad categories of being:

1. Heavies who seem MiTD like in many ways but lack the magical skillsets
2. Creatures with all the power checkboxes but who are either way too big or don't have the right number of eyes and limbs
3. Creatures of the right size and power but who don't fit with MiTD's unique personality

I do not think there is a creature that fits neatly. So we're left considering ways in which you might fudge the gaps in this list- can we give a protean two eyes and a mouth? Can we shrink down an amethyst dragon? Can we stack a couple templates on a Hollyphant? Can we fudge the teleport rules enough to get O-Chul where he needs to go with a level 4 spell?

It's a fun game, although I suspect it will sadly come to an end in the next few months. Until then, though, we speculate wildly!

[littlebum2002]

100% agree, and I think most would, that Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision is the tidiest fit for the escape. Sending people away in exactly that fashion is a listed effect of those spells. MITD is not a caster, so your instinct that it should be an extraordinary ability is also shared by pretty much everyone.

I agree that those 3 fit the scene the best, but V's Dimensional Anchor that missed just seems to out of place to not be relevant. The MitD teleporting V and O-Chul while not taking himself due tot he dimensional anchor doesn't fit as well as those 3 but it would be a very clever way to do it.

[Niveus Candidus]

Question for Rich, if he ever glances at these sprawling threads, if we found a something big--One of the pivotal scenes upon which we base our musings--that was wrong, would he lampshade the error in the comic? A throwaway line that "Really? Dimension Door requires the caster to go with the target? Someone find the retcon button for the script!" would help a lot with the Escape Scene. I know it might be too obvious but it would save a lot of teeth gnashing when the reveal does come to pass.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Protean (via it's ability to assume a form of some creature that can Wish)

(We have never found a creature that has wish as an Ex ability; at current, protean relies on Greater Teleport as its explanation for the escape. It is surprising we even found that, since the Ex abilities are consistently the weakest of the three)

GW

[Ron Miel]

Several years ago I suggested The Pooka as a candidate for MITD's identity. I didn't list my reasons in any detail at the time, and it passed almost unnoticed. After several years I've finally got around to noting why I think its a good candidate. Note that I'm basing it on real-world legends, rather than any D&D sourcebook.


-------------
Traditions
-------------


The Pooka is the subject of widespread mythology. There are legends from many countries across Europe. He is also known in various countris as Púca, Pwca, Phouka, Phooka, Poque, Bucca, or Puck. I favour the English spelling Pooka over other languages because this is a English language comic.

Pookas are fairy creatures, with the ability speak the language of humans, and to cast magic spells.

Pookas are shapeshifters. They can take many different forms, usually appearing in the form of animals including dog, cat, goat, bull, ass, etc. It has several favourites. One favourite form is a goblin, so hideous in appearance that milk will curdle just in his presence. A common form is a rabbit or hare the size of a tall man that walks walks upright. He most often appears as a magnificent horse. He sometimes appears in human form, but often gets a detail wrong, such as having animal ears or a tail. When appearing in many of his various animal forms he will be covered in black hair, and have yellow eyes.

Accounts vary. Different countries have different views of his nature. In some traditions, the Pooka is a benign guardian spirit, who will protect a particular village, or a particular person. Other traditions see him as a force of destruction who needs to be placated. In some versions Pooaks are said to devour people whole.

In other versions he is a prankster who will play frightening, but harmless tricks. A story told about the Pooka is how he appeared in Horse form to a drunken man, walking home alone after the pubs shut. The Pooka invited the man to ride upon his back. He then took the man for a terrifying ride, flying at high speed above the treetops for hundreds of miles, before eventually returning him home. Only the legendary warrior king Brian Boru was permitted to ride him like a normal horse.

All traditions see him as potentially destructive, if he gets upset, or protecting his favourite person place.

In all versions of the legend, the Pooka has a ravenous appetite. Farmers harvesting their crops leave a share for the Pooka. Even a benign Pooka can unleash a terrible destructive force If he doesn't get his share.

Some Pookas are said to feel lonely, and will seek out friends to talk to. Sometimes a Pooka will put on human form then knock at the door of an old house and tell the current resident that the Pooka used to live in this house, just to start a conversation. In Ireland people often put a Pooka's seat outside the house in case the Pooka calls, so they can sit down and shoot the breeze.

Pookas will sometimes rescue people in danger. They might intervene to prevent an accident, to warn of oncoming danger, or to lead people out of a trap. One tale tells of people lost in a swamp, where one false step could get them sucked down to a watery grave. They were guided along the safe path by a Pooka.

----------------
Matches MITD ?
----------------

I think the various legends of the Pookas fit MITD pretty closely. Consider:
- Some pookas are said to devour humans. Others don't. Xykon keeps trying to get MITD to devour people, but MITD is reluctant. It fits.
- Ravenous appetite - check
- Destructive force if he doesn't get his share - check
- Yellow eyes - check
- Black fur - maybe. Perhaps it isn't just darkness under the umbrella.
- Lonely, seeks friendships - check.
- speaks Common - check

A Pooka isn't one of any 'impossible' creature types. Nor is it subject to copyright restrictions.

A Pooka's shapeshifting can expain a lot. When captured in the jungle, I speculate he was wearing horse form. The hunters ould be surprised to see a horse in the jungle. Horses live on the plains. They would have been even more surprised to hear a horse speak. At the circus, I speculate that he wore Ugly Goblin form. This could have upset the human audience, but pleased a Goblin family.

Being a shapeshifter will mean that Rich doesn't have to actually draw a hideously ugly creature. Once he discards the umbrella he can take a more handsome form.

Does it explain O-Chul's escape? Maybe. Pookas sometimes help people escape from daner. Pookas are known to be magic users. I haven't found ny specific legend where they teleport people, but it's not too far from known lore. This, I have to admit, is the weakest link in the argument. Even so, it sort of fits.

Does match the Tower scene? Possibly. Pookas can be a destructive force. Presumably they are both very strong and damage resistant.

------------
Final word
------------

A great warrior is occasionally allowed to ride a Pooka. I note that O-Chul is in need of a paladin mount. I speculate that MITD will volunteer to be O-Chul's mount, in horse form, and happily ride off to face battle with him.

--------
Sources
--------

https://symbolsage.com/pooka-celtic-horse-goblins/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAca

https://www.theirishroadtrip.com/the-puca/

http://www.irelandseye.com/paddy3/preview2.htm

https://www.connollycove.com/pookas/

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/h...h-legend-pooka

https://www.yourirish.com/folklore/irish-pookas

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When captured in the jungle, I speculate he was wearing horse form.

A horse is not the kind of creature that you can sell for so much profit it can pay for a curse removal, I don't imagine. The SBGH reaction suggests tht MitD is rare but not unique, not a commonplace animal worth a couple hundred gp.

As to the rest, I'd need far better support for the Escape scene before I'd buy into this. My experience with the kind of tale this pooka might show up in suggests that escapes might involve paths through the fey lands or magical objects (strangely frequently but not always common objects that when thrown grow into large obstacles), but never outright teleportation.

Also, I fail to see how this pooka is different from any of a dozen other fey and fey-like creatures from folkstales; plenty of them are friendly sometimes nd dangerous in other (or sometimes the same!) tale, displaying enormous strength at times, enormous appetites at times, etc. I'm no expert, mind you, but one gets the feeling they're the same tales told all over, recycled to slot the local names for the pixies in each region, of which this pooka looks to be one such name, but with no actual solid lore behind it, so that it fits any tale that requires a mysterious creature to fill the antagonist/assistant role.

(speaking of, it only just clicked that the linnorm is a weird variation on the lind worm, which is another "slot here creature" for tales that call for a dragon-like antagonist, as explained by Red in this great video)

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

My gut feeling is that the Stew bit indicates that MITD has now...If not stopped growing, at the very least, reached close enough to his full adult size. Basically, his hunger was the result of a continual growth spurt he's just gotten out of.

[Eric the White]

My gut feeling is that the Stew bit indicates that MITD has now...If not stopped growing, at the very least, reached close enough to his full adult size. Basically, his hunger was the result of a continual growth spurt he's just gotten out of.

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

It has plenty of meaning. It is further character development of MitD in his personal journey towards the heel face turn.

What it need not be is a clue for the guessing game.

GW

[Peelee]

Agreed. Unless the author is deliberately trying to throw people off with that info, Conservation of Detail indicates that they would not spend half a page talking about something that effectively has no meaning.

Notwithstanding that I disagree that it has no meaning unless it's regarding a biological change for the MitD...

Conservation of Detail is overrated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The biggest problem with the protean is the eyes. The MitD has two eyes in the same place all the time. The protean boils, and grows eyes all over at random.

... unless he expends half his actions NOT changing. Because, say, he is trying to fit in with his friends, none of which constantly change. Which would be seen by those around him unaware of the effort it requires as laziness, since it takes him twice as much time to get anything done as it would for anyone else.

All of which has been stated before, in this thread, in response to this very assertion, without ever being contested.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Notwithstanding that I disagree that it has no meaning unless it's regarding a biological change for the MitD...

Overrated is not the same as irrelevant, though. And I think the Giant is likely to be more concerned with conservation of detail specifically in regards to the MitD, because he's built up this mystery/guessing game about the MitD's identity.

[Peelee]

Overrated is not the same as irrelevant, though. And I think the Giant is likely to be more concerned with conservation of detail specifically in regards to the MitD, because he's built up this mystery/guessing game about the MitD's identity.

It's not the same, no, but given how the author has said its overrated, making theories based on it seems like a poor basis to use.

Again, notwithstanding that I disagreed with the premise that it was meaningless if not related to biological change to start with.