MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[yokyok]

When did we learn that about Hel?

I misspoke, substitute death for destruction, as hamishspence noted.

Clerics can't cast teleport unless they get it thorough a specific domain.

Or miracle.

Even if we accept that MitD's species needs to be foreshadowed (which is becoming more and more plausible the more I think about it), I don't think our inability to identify that foreshadowing necessarily means anything. After all, good foreshadowing is often only apparent in retrospect. Take, for instance, this comic - knowing what we do about subsequent events, it's clearly setting up Hel's scheme at the Godsmoot, but who would have been able to figure that out when it was first published? I expect something similar is happening with MitD - once his species is revealed, we'll recognize that various things we didn't even realize were meaningful were actually hints as to his identity.

Indeed, but in my opinion this is still the key, the method that makes it "possible to guess" as Rich Burlew said it was.

It seems to me that "Snarl Jr." is the archetypal example of something the Giant made up for the story.

It's not my theory's highest point but it depends on how likely you think my interpretation of the statement is and how much weight you put on the "blurred line" comment.

[hroþila]

It's not my theory's highest point but it depends on how likely you think my interpretation of the statement is and how much weight you put on the "blurred line" comment.

I must admit I don't really understand the logic behind your interpretation of that line. Could you elaborate?

Teleporting V and O-Chul is easy. Gods have that power and give it to clerics. A Snarl would have that power without all the god rules preventing him from using it.

Why would the Snarl have that power?

[halfeye]

I'm not sure how much of this has been brought up already (I haven't read most of the discussion threads), but here are some points in favor of a MitD related to the Snarl:

This comic shows the snarl still as non-communicative and destructive as ever:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

[OvisCaedo]

Out of curiosity, what exactly did the hunters say about the MitD when they encountered him? Some posts I've seen seemed like they suggested they knew what he was exactly, others just as something clearly rare.

[Fyraltari]

Out of curiosity, what exactly did the hunters say about the MitD when they encountered him? Some posts I've seen seemed like they suggested they knew what he was exactly, others just as something clearly rare.

Spoiler: SoD, page 50

Show

Jenkins: Succes!
Not-Jenkins: Yes, looks like we bagged it. Good work, Jenkins.
MitD: Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn't seem to be a latch on the inside.
Not-Jenkins: My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!
Jenkins: Unbelievable!
MitD: Um, yeah, I can speak. So about this box...
Not-Jenkins: Well that will surely fetch a fine price.
Jenkins: Indeed!
MitD: OK, I know you can hear me, so... I'd really like to discuss the box situation.
Not-Jenkins: I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
Jenkins: Quite!
MitD: Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, "please" and "thank you." And "sorry about the smell."
Not-Jenkins: Once-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins! We'll be the talk of the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters lodge for weeks!
Jenkins: Smashing!
MitD: Stop ignoring me!
Not-Jenkins: A find like this might even be enough to pay the witch to remove the horrible curse that forces you to speak only in one-word exclamations.
Jenkins: Finally!
MitD: Ok, how about we bargain? You let me out of here, and I'll... uh... braid your mustaches?
Not-Jenkins: Tell Marlow to bring the boat around, we'll load it into the cargo hold.
Jenkins: Immediately!

Not that while they don't look inside the box, it looks like they baited him specifically, which means they might have gotten a good look at him, if only from a distance, before.

[ReaderAt2046]

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.

IMO, that's actually one of the advantages of the protean. When the time does come for the MITD to reveal itself, the basic idea of what a Protean is and how its abilities work can be conveyed simply by showing the MITD unmasked for two or three panels, which is not really true of any other FBS creature.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was thinking more in terms of the comic's writing style, not as a universal rule for guessing games. For example: First we learn Nergal is god of destruction in Malack's pantheon, that Malack worships Nergal, and that Hel is goddess of destruction in Durkon's pantheon. Then we learn Malack is a vampire. Then Durkon becomes a vampire. Then (the punchline): Durkon* worships Hel. I'm expecting that the MitD's reveal will put together facts from the comic in a logical way. If MitD is a protean, the structure would be: MitD has X property, protean has X property, MitD is protean. If the second part is available in a MM but not in the comic itself, the reader of only the comic doesn't get the satisfaction.

And how much satisfaction did this hypothetical reader get from the fact that Malack's species was a yuan-ti*? And why would you assume that MitD's species needs to be more "satisfactory" than Malack's? As opposed to the satisfaction being derived from the completion of MitD's personal journey of self-discovery?

Readers of this comic regularly encounter creatures they have no means of naming or understanding without access to the MM. "Yet another D&D species no-one knows" is the comic's writing style. MitD need not be any different, so long as the comic establishes what it can do. Which it has been doing over an over, in what we call "clues" and to the regulr reader is just "MitD's species abilities".

And of course, as other and yourself have pointed out, all this is before we even get into the obvious problem of needing to completely disregard the author's assurance that he did not create MitD's species for the story, and the snarl being something Rich very much create for the story.

GW

*Or whatever he actually was.

[siprus]

I noticed one detail about the MITD escape sequence. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned. I think wish type spell best explains the mechanics of the escape scene.

At beginning of the escape Chul says "Agreed we must - " and is cut off. He could possibliy finnish the sentance with xykons hand in his mouth making it unintelligble, or it might be enough for him to Focus on the wish. The whole sentance judging Chul's character would have likely been "Agreed we must report back to hinjo as soon as possible".

In the next comic we see Chul and V they drop on top of hinjo. As he's rising up he immediately proceedes to reporting to Hinjo where he's been and what has happened. This is very soft indication that reporting to Hinjo was first thing on his mind as he was teleported.

Lastly how would MITD know where to spesifically teleport Chul. In general teleportation cannot target space above certain person, especially if MITD doesn't know his location. By reading Vs mind he could have gotten his approximate position, but not exact.

Because of these details I think it's likely that MITD was spesfically granting wish to O-Chul instead casting greater teleportation or similar spell.

[Precure]

Agreed. It can't be anything but wish.

[Ruck]

Here's something I was thinking about revisiting some old threads and posts in preparation for the new one and my own revisions:

We discussed it briefly at the time, but despite my stance at the time, upon revisiting the topic I think it might actually be useful to add part of Rich's answer on the MitD from the answers post two summers ago (question 3) to the OP section 1a ("Directly from Rich"). I don't think we need the whole thing, but this line in particular I think offers some clarity:

It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story.

I feel like the emphasis that MitD's species is part of the story, that's it's not just a guessing game for fun, is important. There have been some arguments made in the past that it's not really that important to the story, or that Rich didn't choose it with the whole of the story in mind.

Now, this is where my perspective might be tainted from reading those old threads recently, because I don't recall offhand if that idea has become generally accepted and the arguments that MitD's species is not necessarily part of the story have been dropped. Could be that some of the arguments I've been reading are older and generally have been forgotten or dropped. But I do think it's an important point to keep in mind when forming speculation, so I'm bringing it up for possible inclusion.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[yokyok]

I must admit I don't really understand the logic behind your interpretation of that line. Could you elaborate?

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

Translate the first sentence of the second paragraph as "It's not something I made up just for MitD's character arc." I think it's possible in context: that sentence is itself the beginning of a restatement of "it is possible to guess" (=not known only to my mind), he reiterates afterwards it's not "something I invented just for one purpose" (=but rather with other roles in the story), and "the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one" (=in a way it's something I did make up). It's still a stretch, though, and by this theory he really wasn't as precise as he should have been (if he could have imagined how much its exact wording would be analyzed!).

Alternatively, since we don't know what the Snarl is anyway, it could turn out in the end that the Snarl isn't something totally invented by him, in which case that line could be taken literally. That would make my guess two steps removed from the actual essence of what it is (MitD is like the Snarl which is a ___) and require one more step to fill in the blank.

Why would the Snarl have that power?

Because the gods have it and the Snarl is made out of divine quiddities. The rest is technicalities but of the things the gods need, the Snarl has at least souls (of mortals and gods) and belief (by gods).

And how much satisfaction did this hypothetical reader get from the fact that Malack's species was a yuan-ti*?

None. That fact was not highlighted or even revealed in the comic, and it makes no difference to the story. By contrast, the fact that Malack was a vampire is important, was foreshadowed (bloodwart tea), and makes a difference (he turned Durkon into a vampire). The MitD is in the latter category.

And why would you assume that MitD's species needs to be more "satisfactory" than Malack's? As opposed to the satisfaction being derived from the completion of MitD's personal journey of self-discovery?

Because the MitD's species is a central part of its story. The fact of it being unknown and purposely concealed is highlighted from the very beginning until now. There is a reason why there are 16 MitD threads, and it's not a detached intellectual exercise in zoology.

Or if you prefer dogma, Section 1a has an explicit quote from War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) that the reveal will be satisfactory.

[Precure]

O-Chul's comment made me think that it's not a thing you supposed to see aligned with evil. Maybe sonmething angel-like.

[Ruck]

I still think this is just about the best explanation of "fine line":

The fine line comment makes perfect sense.

Question: Who invented the character Thor in OOTS?
Was it the ancient Norwegians who created the original Thor mythology?
Was it Stan Lee, who created the comic book character and many of our modern concepts of Thor?
Or was it Rich, who adapted both of their ideas of Thor and changed them to make his own?

It's a fine line. Neither of these three completely created this character, it was Rich building off the other 2, so you really can't say this character was created by any one person, can you?

[Jaziggy]

Ok, its been a while so I'll probably forget some stuff, but I present for your consideration the Loculi.

I've been mulling this over for a couple days. I'm going to lead with strength- the narrative.

The most satisfying creature would be something that by virtue of what it is drives forward the story. The story is about an effort to repair a devastating structural defect in the universe before the Gods can unmake it for the n^th time. The First Edition may well be a time before the Snarl. A First Edition monster may have some essence- the lost divinity color, pre-Snarl purity, etc- which renders it essential to resolving the plot and destroying, imprisoning, or untangling the snarl. This would be deeply satisfying, totally within the rules of the guessing game, and delightfully meta in a way that is just signature Giant. It also explains a clue so thorny we basically just don't talk about it any more. MiTD can't see the gates.

Every weapon the Order might use, every spell, every God- they are all in their essence part Snarl. Except, maybe, this one. The MiTD has a quality of purity that makes him the only thing that can truly counter the Snarl because he's the only thing remaining in the universe that isn't made out of the Snarl. This also would explain his curious other-ness, his naivete, his lack of understanding how the world works. He's not a child or a fool- he's an alien from a different universe, with different rules, trying to understand this new one he's found himself in. If the MiTD is a 1st Edition Loculi, that fact could make him the deus ex umbrella that he is meant to be.

It's also deeply satisfying to the challenge of the game. This is the deepest of deep cuts, a boss-level monster from 1982, a back issue of White Dwarf. It's not iconic, but it is an absolute classic.

Next to evaluate is looks, size, alignment, creature type, that sort of thing. This creature fits. He fits in the box. He's gross looking. He's got four legs and arms. Two eyes, a nose, a face, and a mouth with teeth. He could gobble up a goblin. He's not intrinsically tied to some merciless evil or extraplanar identity that makes it hard to believe him as the sweet gentle soul that he is. The guide posts even say that the stomp is positioned in a way that suggests four legs on the floor. This crazy, modestly sized, lizard-toad-dragon-centaur of the deep is a perfect fit physically.

He's not one of the prohibited categories. He's not from the jungle. His dad would be bigger than him. He's not immune to mind-affecting spells. He's a 'one of these'. He'd leave extremely weird tracks.

He's obscure, rare, and likely to be misidentified or misunderstood by all but the most sophisticated experts taking 20 in their skill. Even those experts are likely to miss things about it or disagree. He's not something anyone in the circus scene would have ever seen before. The White Dwarf entry for the Loculi states "communication is by semi-telepathic empathy of great range but no actual sounds would be heard" - quite surprising for one to talk. Xykon could have read somewhere he likes to eat dwarves- "they gratefully eat animal flesh whenever they can, favouring dwarf and gnome in particular" is straight out of White Dwarf.

Now to power level- we all love the numbers here and this makes this nominee frustrating, because there's no 3E entry for a Loculi. However, if I'm right about the 1st Edition thing, it's necessary for the story that there not be. It also gives the Giant a lot of leeway in terms of designing and scaling up this creature. An Age category 9 or 10 Loculi is right in the same power level as a very old or ancient dragon, which have CRs in the low 20s. Natural psionics in those CRs in existing sourcebooks include a Paragon Mind Flayer (STR 27, Psionics at 23rd level, DR 20/+6, SR 35) Ancient Gem Dragons (we've been over them, stats work great, way too big). These are creatures that could easily have access to Reality Revision at the DMs discretion as he's porting a 1E over into more modern systems, and would definitely be able to cobble together one of the lesser teleportation schemes. [ETA]: Giant updating the creature for 3E also fits with his more cryptic comments about where the line is between making something up for the story (porting a 1E to 3E and giving it just the right powers) and not making it up (the original creature was created by someone else).

The Loculi has the right physical qualities, has the right game mechanic qualities, fits the way the author likes to tell stories, would be a satisfying reveal that was important to the story, and the 1st Edition aspect of it would be hilarious.

Crusher has identified a remarkably good guess, a stunningly good bit of historical detective work, and I'm going to get on board the S.S. Loculi. Change my vote to Loculi!

[Shadowknight12]

I assume all of these have been brought up before, but since people were mentioning bringing up concrete examples of non-D&D monsters (that would be recognizable to a mostly American audience almost 20 years ago), I figured I'd at the very least get a post down for posterity's sake:

Bigfoot/Sasquatch - (large but not too large, bipedal, strong, its extreme elusiveness could be interpreted as a teleportation ability, could be seen as tough)

Jersey Devil - (appearance sure is weird, large but not too large, strong, tough, "It has been reported to move quickly and is often described as emitting a high-pitched 'blood-curdling scream'", could be reinterpreted as teleportation + a roar)

Bogeyman - (nigh-universal monstrous figure that is often associated with the darkness (one could even see it as THE monster in the darkness), size varies, bipedal, powers are extremely varied, same goes for its strength/toughness)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Translate the first sentence of the second paragraph as "It's not something I made up just for MitD's character arc."

That is not a "translation", that is a rewrite with barely anything to do with the original. Rich said he did not create MitD's species for the story. Snarl was created for the story. Therefore, MitD is not the snarl, a piece of it, its child, etc. Which should be obvious, since it is impossible to tell if the Snarl can even have children, spuds, etc because it was created for the story, and cannot be guessed from MitD's actions because we have absolutly no idea of what the snarl can and cannot do.

(=but rather with other roles in the story)

And this "translation" is literally the opposite of what Rich is saying. By this "logic" there was no need to make any clarification at all, since by definition anything he invented for the story would have "other" roles other than being the solution to the guessing games. A therbelwerkasaurus would also fit "other roles". Therefore, this is not what Rich meant.

(=in a way it's something I did make up)

No. The fine line clearly acknowledges that all D&D creatures are made up, and that to the average reader it doesn't make much of a difference if it was Rich Burlew or Richard Garfield the one that created it. They are all made up. But Rich chooses to make the distinction, fine as it is, and therefore the Snarl, his own creation, is out of the question.

since we don't know what the Snarl is anyway,

And this is just admitting that the Snarl is indistinguishable from a therbelwerkasaurus. We do not know what the Snarl is, therefore Rich cannot possibly expect us to figure it out.

Because the gods have it and the Snarl is made out of divine quiddities.

So is everything else. Being made of quiddities hasn't given Roy any teleportation powers.

None. That fact was not highlighted or even revealed in the comic, and it makes no difference to the story. By contrast, the fact that Malack was a vampire is important, was foreshadowed (bloodwart tea), and makes a difference (he turned Durkon into a vampire). The MitD is in the latter category.

You don't know that "MitD is in the latter category". There is no reason to assume that a satisfactory reveal of MitD requires anyone to recognize the species, and the fact that Rich set out to make it into a difficult guessing game strongly suggests he is NOT going to depend on anyone recognizing it even after the release. There is every reason to believe that it will be satisfactory because it will fit the clues, but that is not the same thing.

And once again, since we don't know what the Snrl can and cannot do, it cannot possibly be a satisfactory reveal even by your extremely loose standards.

Because the MitD's species is a central part of its story. The fact of it being unknown and purposely concealed is highlighted from the very beginning until now. There is a reason why there are 16 MitD threads, and it's not a detached intellectual exercise in zoology.

He is not "central" to the story. He is a secondary character at best. And the reason there's been 16 threads has nothing to do with how important MitD is and everything to do with the fact people like to talk about stuff while waiting for the next comic.

Or if you prefer dogma, Section 1a has an explicit quote from War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) that the reveal will be satisfactory.

And do you have another quote that explicitly says that the reveal will be satisfactory because anyone will be able to recognize the species? Because I don't know of any. I know he has planned the reveal for a long time, I strongly suspect the reveal will be part of a satisfactory heel face turn, and I know that Rich says that MitD's species will fit the clues. Heck, that quote suggests that Rich expects the reveal to be satisfactory despite the effort we have put into figuring it out. That even though this topic has been chewed to fine paste, it'll still be satisfactory, which if anything strongly suggests that the species is practically irrelevant to the satisfaction of the reveal.

We discussed it briefly at the time, but despite my stance at the time, upon revisiting the topic I think it might actually be useful to add part of Rich's answer on the MitD from the answers post two summers ago (question 3) to the OP section 1a ("Directly from Rich").

Added.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I've been mulling this over for a couple days. I'm going to lead with strength- the narrative.

The most satisfying creature would be something that by virtue of what it is drives forward the story. The story is about an effort to repair a devastating structural defect in the universe before the Gods can unmake it for the n^th time. The First Edition may well be a time before the Snarl. A First Edition monster may have some essence- the lost divinity color, pre-Snarl purity, etc- which renders it essential to resolving the plot and destroying, imprisoning, or untangling the snarl. This would be deeply satisfying

This would be deeply unsatisfying. If the MitD was the key all along, why did I bother wasting my time reading about systemic goblinoid oppression and The Dark One and all that jazz? None of that would have actually mattered, and that makes for a pretty poor story.

Ignoring, if course, how unsatisfying it would be if the author said, "yeah, it's something I created myself, but not for the story. Gotcha!" Ignoring now in this case, it would even have been something he created for the story.

[Jervis]

Mechanically I wouldn’t say that the Snarl is a god. It’s
More like an Abomination.
Made by one or more gods? Check
Super powerful? Check
Dangerous to everyone around it? Check

Abominations are usually controlled by the god that made them but that’s not always the case. Notable that abomination as a type is usually a indicator that said thing is a non-deity that can pose a problem to deities. Basically it’s how you stat something that doesn’t have the abilities granted by divine rank but can still punch up hypothetically speaking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mechanically I wouldn’t say that the Snarl is a god. It’s
More like an Abomination.
Made by one or more gods? Check
Super powerful? Check
Dangerous to everyone around it? Check

Abominations are usually controlled by the god that made them but that’s not always the case. Notable that abomination as a type is usually a indicator that said thing is a non-deity that can pose a problem to deities. Basically it’s how you stat something that doesn’t have the abilities granted by divine rank but can still punch up hypothetically speaking.

I agree that if there was a stat block for the Snarl, it would probably be an abomination. But just like with deities, it is a "build your own" set of rules, rather than anything that can be nailed down. But more importantly, I doubt there is even a hint of a stat block for the snarl. Rich isn't intending for his D&D group to fight it, so there is no reason for him to actually use those, or indeed any other, building rules. More than anything else in the comic, the snarl does what Rich needs it to do, unconstrained by any D&D rules.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

More than anything else in the comic, the snarl does what Rich needs it to do, unconstrained by any D&D rules.

GW

This makes sense in-universe as well, since the Snarl predates all the worlds except perhaps the very first, and it's not clear whether any of the previous worlds used D&D rules. So if the Snarl is a surviving entity from a time when the multiverse didn't operate under D&D rules, it may well not have any D&D stats, like how the unupdated 2e monsters didn't have Will saves.

[Ruck]

All right, I've got a fun new idea (YMMV on "fun" and "idea"):

MITD is Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

All the clues are there:

• childlike nature that obscures hidden depths
• can partially shapeshift to manifest limbs as well as other things (mostly things made of meat). he usually manifests arms so it is unclear if he realized he could manifest a foot to stomp with before the earthquake scene
• moves around by rolling himself on the ground, which would leave confusing tracks
• but also his face stays in the same place while he's rolling around, explaining why MITD's eyes do not move
• spends all his time hanging out with a haughty jerk (Master Shake) and an exasperated, put-upon smart guy (Frylock), explaining why he fell in so readily with Xykon and Redcloak
• the Aqua Teens and some of their enemies have access to futuristic technology, explaining how he got from New Jersey to OOTS-world. possibly also explaining the Escape scene
• dumb enough that he could try to hit someone as lightly as possible and accidentally create tremendous damage
• dumb enough to either not know what a gate is or not recognize one when he sees it
• a talking lump of ground beef could be nauseating to some and beautiful to others. possible a wizard has "never seen anything like it" as it is from another universe, and as far as I recall the closest thing we've seen to ground beef in OOTS is hydra-burgers, which are not the same

Heck, after reading points 2-4 again, now I'm wondering if MITD is a Protean with a Meatwad template. Or maybe he watches a lot of Aqua Teen on the TV and thought it was cool how Meatwad did the thing with his face staying in the same place, so he tried to mimic that.

[Precure]

Skywarp or some other decepticon similar to him.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Skywarp_(G1)

Can teleport himself and others
Decepticons has enough strength and power
Made out of hard material
Transforming abilities explain all the reactions
Use family terms despite of being asexual
Can be hypnotized, so vulnerable to mind affect
Existed well before the strip 100

[Jervis]

This makes sense in-universe as well, since the Snarl predates all the worlds except perhaps the very first, and it's not clear whether any of the previous worlds used D&D rules. So if the Snarl is a surviving entity from a time when the multiverse didn't operate under D&D rules, it may well not have any D&D stats, like how the unupdated 2e monsters didn't have Will saves.

we know some worlds used ironclaw rules

[Crusher]

Skywarp or some other decepticon similar to him.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Skywarp_(G1)

Can teleport himself and others
Decepticons has enough strength and power
Made out of hard material
Transforming abilities explain all the reactions
Use family terms despite of being asexual
Can be hypnotized, so vulnerable to mind affect
Existed well before the strip 100

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

[Jasdoif]

But I don't put too much stock in people simply asserting it's a bad fit without argument or evidence. Or people declaring it doesn't "feel right" to them for some reason that has nothing to do with the criteria we know ("it's too powerful," "it's not iconic / instantly recognizable enough," "it will be obvious when we figure it out so we must not have figured it out yet," etc.). Or people outright misrepresenting what it can do (the repeated cases of people insisting it's a complete shapeshifter that can do anything, for example).

The problem with the case of the protean is that it's too convenient. Not the case, the protean. Anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities, a protean could similarly accomplish by virtue of its extraordinary ability to assume the extraordinary abilities of other creatures. And most of the identifiable traits MitD has, fall well within the expectations of extraordinary abilities. A protean will look like a passable fit no matter what MitD is.

Not that this is the protean's fault specifically, it's kind of a general issue with any "use something else's powers" in a system whose entire mechanics/marketing strategy is centered around incrementally introducing "feels new" elements within the established structures, you rack up a lot of viable options and get a lot of flexibility when you can choose any of them (see also polymorph and friends, prepared spellcasting, wish and friends....).

To get a solid case with that kind of upper bound, you'd need a squeeze-theorem-esque approach showing that the protean cannot do what MitD also fails at doing. This works with the broad animate dead point, but not with the much more precise attempt to recreate the escape. (This is probably the most interesting part about the Glabrezu proposal; the restrictions on use of the overly dynamic wish ability fit the scenario quite well.) Most of the explanations rely on appealing to the MitD's personality...which doesn't do a particularly convincing job. Even overlooking how that's a different axis than abilities and thus there's little actual "squeezing" going on, those are the MitD's personality traits; they would apply whether the MitD is a protean or not.


All this stuff about a protean's ability to assume other creature's extraordinary abilities would of course be irrelevant if the protean's own abilities were adequate for explaining MitD...unfortunately they're not: The protean relies on picking up greater teleport through shifting into the form of an umbral blot, to be able to explain the escape.

Spoiler: I Have Doubts Everyone is Interested in Psionics Minutiae

Show

As much as it would amuse me to find that Psteve is a hidden hint that psionics in OotS-world are mashed between 3.0 rules and 3.5 rules, the "conversion" mentioned in the FBS block to gain psionic teleport wouldn't actually work that way: Since the protean has a Psionics ability, it's considered to already be psionic, and it retains its powers instead of getting new ones (other than psionic attack and defense modes that structurally resemble powers). And for the sake of accuracy, that conversion is mentioned in the (3.0) Psionics Handbook, not the (3.5) Expanded Psionics Handbook. (The XPH's idea of conversion is adding the psionics subtype and making Psionics "psi-like" instead of "spell-like".)

From the opposite direction...a protean could certainly get extraordinary abilities from creatures ineligible to be MitD themselves (size, immunity to mind-affecting affects, etc.) to add onto their own; but doing this deliberately is an esoteric form of the "abilities augmentation" mentioned in section 2d in the opening posts, with all that entails. (I suppose that could apply to any use of extraordinary abilities on a protean's part, but trying to dismiss the whole proposal on the basis of an ability that can't be freely disabled seems more convenient than appropriate.)


tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.

[Jervis]

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

They consume energon, basically magical space energy blue crystal cubes. Depending on the continuity I do believe they can create energon using other forms of energy so hypothetically they could make energon by processing food. That’s not something common to most continuity by any means though. I think the animal based transformers like predicons and maximals can get energy from proper food though in some continuities but don’t quote me on that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.

As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else. Heck, the only one I can think of is Detect Thoughts, assuming that's an Ex for anything else, and that one the Protean has by base. Circus? Alter Shape & fluff. Tower? Strength 45-53 & regen 50. Fit under the umbrella? Base size, maybe slightly smaller due to being young.

So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?

Grey Wolf

[Jaziggy]

This would be deeply unsatisfying. If the MitD was the key all along, why did I bother wasting my time reading about systemic goblinoid oppression and The Dark One and all that jazz? None of that would have actually mattered, and that makes for a pretty poor story.

Ignoring, if course, how unsatisfying it would be if the author said, "yeah, it's something I created myself, but not for the story. Gotcha!" Ignoring now in this case, it would even have been something he created for the story.

I don't think the plotlines would be at all mutually exclusive. Maybe it's the combination of pre-Snarl and a new quiddity that does it, or maybe the strong points Red Cloak is making come into play in a different way. The Snarl has stymied the Gods themselves for uncountable eons, it's going to take every sort of extraordinary thing to overcome it.

[Ruck]

tl;dr The protean looks like a good fit for MitD because the protean's flexible abilities make it a good fit for a wide range of scenarios, rather than being a good fit for MitD in particular; MitD benefits from selection bias because of the guessing game. This does not change even if the MitD is, in fact, a protean.

As far as I can recall, the protean suggestion invokes its copying of Ex abilities to explain one thing: the escape. Everything else the protean explains using all its other characteristics (including, yes, the Alter Shape power, but crucially NOT to copy Ex powers from elsewhere). So I am mightily confused as to what you mean by "anything that MitD accomplishes by virtue of extraordinary abilities", because I cannot think of anything else. Heck, the only one I can think of is Detect Thoughts, assuming that's an Ex for anything else, and that one the Protean has by base. Circus? Alter Shape & fluff. Tower? Strength 45-53 & regen 50. Fit under the umbrella? Base size, maybe slightly smaller due to being young.

So yeah, what other thing does the Protean explain by borrowing Ex powers other than the Esacape? The lack of snow tracks?

Grey Wolf

Aye. Exactly what I would've said, more or less. For all the talk about the Protean's Alter Shape ability to mimic Ex abilities being able to "explain anything," there is exactly one scene in the comic that actually relies on that ability. The rest can be explained by the Protean's base stats and appearance.

(And, since we just added the quote to the first section to emphasize that MITD's species is part of the story and not just a guessing game: I'll add that Protean has by far the most thematic resonance with MITD's character arc, a quality that I, at least, have not been able to find in any other species.)

[Precure]

Serious question: do transformers eat anything? Do they need to get gas?

Apparently they can eat both organic and inorganic stuff.