Gah...No More EVIL!

[Elven Paladin]

Hi there. I'm a pretty avid D&D player, and I usually play every weekend with a group of my friends. It's usually pretty fun, but there's only one thing that irks me; they will only play evil games. Now don't get me wrong I think it's fun every once in a while. It's just that whenever I suggest we play a good game they all start talking about how hard or how boring it is to play good characters. Does anyone have any advice that doesn't involve me finding a new group?

[Renegade Paladin]

Get a DM who will actually have the environment respond appropriately to a group of powerful evil guys running rampant? In most games, adventurers come after evil menaces; there should be very powerful people looking to off your parties all the time.

[Ralfarius]

Honestly? Other than changing your perspective to fit into them, your options are:
- Find a new group
- Wait 3-4 years for them to mature a bit and get out of their 'evil' phase

I mean, you could try to sit them down and explain how you feel about always having to play evil campaigns, but if they think that not being evil is 'boring' and 'hard' good characters are to play... They're more than likely not going to be very receptive to other viewpoints.

[Elven Paladin]

Well as we've been playing for almost 6 years I think it's a bit more than an evil "phase." I live in a fairly small town, and we're really the only gaming group around.

[Renegade Paladin]

Again I ask: Does the DM just have the game world lie down and take it when your parties go about doing their nefarious deeds? There should be good-aligned adventuring parties, paladin orders, and churches of good deities out for their hides all the time; if there aren't, then the DM is simply pandering to the players.

[Deepblue706]

What is the age range of your group? I hope you're not offended if I presume early teens - it seems to me that younger players like to be anti-heroes and villains, etc, and believe that good guys are automatically like Superman or Captain America (and are forced to wear spandex, etc) - and thus overdone, boring, and likely very dumb-looking.

Maybe they're not ready for "good", and that's fine. Instead, try to entice players into being "neutral" - this allows them free-reign to be the badasses they want to be, but it's easier to manage. A lot of heroes can be neutral - all they need is motivation to kill the enemy.

If your DM (or you, if you are he) can make someone the players absolutely hate, on a level that makes them actually want to be, at least, a little good, you might send some momentum in a more pleasant direction. If there are NPCs that are always meaner, badder than the PCs, and also plenty of nicer ones (but make sure they're badass too), they will receive a broader spectrum of how they relate on scales of good and evil - it might be what they need to consider other alignments. Having a NPC to be the Luke Skywalker to their Darth Vader might do some good (turn to the light!), if done properly.

How evil are they, usually? If I had more details, I would have a better perspective of the situation, and might have more suggestions.

[Elven Paladin]

I'm almost too embarassed to admit it but I'm one of the youngest in the group and I'm 18. The rest are around 19 and 20.

How evil are they? Well...they routinely rape barwenches, bite out the throats of their enemies, murder unsuspecting commoners including children, and act very flippantly to persons in positions of authority.

I know that last one isn't too evil, but he's the king dammit!

On a side note, I would try to convince them to be neutral, but they usually end up with the same personalities. Even on those off chances they're good they tend to play violent antiheroes.

[Morty]

Well, I guess people at the age of 20 can act childishly too.
And anyway, do your DM(s) ever try to punish them for this? As said above, after few rampant mass murders or rapes, some group of powerful good-aligned adventurers should deem it prudent to stomp them into ground.

[cupkeyk]

Why doesn't the king have them killed? Azoun was epic leveled Ftr Pal Purple Dragon knight wasn't he? There's that Paladinstar chick.

The thing is, maybe the dm enjoys that kind of gameplay too and endorses it by not having any serious repercussions to it.

[Alex12]

Question: Are you the DM, the player, or do you alternate?
for DMing:Be realistic. If the party kills little old ladies, commits arson for fun, and the like, people will know. Shops won't sell to them, inns will turn them away, and of course they'll be hunted down by high-level adventurers. And they shouldn't expect sympathy from other evil creatures either, naturally.
As a player, things can be even more fun. Be a good cleric. Say your god ordered you to travel with them to prevent the end of existence (after all, even evil characters presumably don't want to die, nor do they really want everything to die. They just want to kill/destroy stuff for fun, and it's not fun anymore if there's nothing left to do that to. This doesn't even have to be a major thing, just that something you do while traveling with them will have a butterfly effect and end up saving the universe at some point in the future. You can lead by example, and you'll still have some nice roleplaying.

[Elven Paladin]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Edit: I actually like Alex12's idea a lot, but I see bad things happening to that cleric in his sleep...

[Ralfarius]

Back in the day, a friend and I were testing the waters with a potentially new group of gamers. They turned out to be a bunch of V:tM wannabes, going on about how evil is not black and white and blah-dee-blah, especially when once they made a trio of evil characters to fit into a group that already had 3 good characters. Our paladin ended up finding them out while detecting evil, so we confronted them, beat the snot out of them, then dragged them off to the local clergy to help us make them into not such a risk to society.

They wouldn't have any of that, and instead of trying to work something out with us, they (one of them literally) ripped up the character sheets and told us that we'd have to get out of the host's house. I kid you not, they threatened to kick us out for not trucking with evil characters.

Well, we had about gotten the feel of what these folks were about. So, to end our association on a high note, we agreed to play an 'all-evil' campaign. Basically, we systematically killed off each of their characters, and when we got to the one who was closest to the GM (in terms of personal relationship), the GM had us waylaid by a group of randomly generated high-level thugs just outside the inn who inexplicably wanted to kill us. We actually escaped, and ran off into the distance, cackling and reveling in out-evilling the evil players.

Not the most 'mature' way of dealing with it, but man does it make for a good story.

The big problem with 'evil' campaigns is that evil in D&D is an inherently self-destructive force. Evil characters almost always work in a manner that causes harm and/or resentment in others, even if they do so in a way that their victims aren't immediately aware of their actions. Evil characters will usually plot and scheme, especially against other members of their group.

It's extremely difficult for a group of players to feasibly maintain such a campaign, when ultimately they're probably looking to subjugate, swindle, or kill each other. I'm not going to say impossible, but often times evil characters will only end up working together for long periods because one of them has a significant advantage over the others, and bends them to his/her whims. Granted, this has some good RP opportunity, but you have to consider that a great many players don't much enjoy being bossed around by their other party members to do things.

If your group is the 'stab each other in the back' kind of group, you should try introducing them to PARANOIA. It will help them get their fill of those urges, then they can try to be productive do-gooders (or do-neutralers) for a more serious game of D&D.

Also: If you just can't find another group within a reasonable physical distance, you should consider some play-by-post. That sort of stuff is all over the internet, and there's even some potential fun to be had here on the forums!

[Elven Paladin]

The thing is they don't really try to stab each other in the back, just random townspeople. They're a very unified evil force.

Edit: I may just have to find a PbP game soon, so be on the lookout.

[Baxbart]

I'm so glad my players are pretty much out of that phase (all bar one... but he's currently a paladin at the moment, and bound within the laws of a lawful good alignment for fear of losing his powers).

I haven't got a lot else to offer - most ideas seem to have been suggested. The easiest way to hound them is to put bounties on their heads from various authorities, and just throw parties of tougher (same to slightly higher level) NPCs at them. After their 'fun' evil characters get killed several times over, they might start being a little more careful about who they insult.

Of, if they are about to do something unnecessarily violent, drop a Tarrasque on 'em

[The Mormegil]

Oh, how I know how you feel... Yes, my players ARE young teens, but anyway, I don't want to wait untill I'm old to have fun playing...

Oh, by the way, if that' the WHOLE group, the DM can't just piss them all and give them no rest untill they're dead, because he's the DM and they should enjoy playing. Just go along, and if you don't like it, play an LG Evangelist that wants peace and love for everyone...

[Morty]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Huh? They go around killing random people and they don't know why are authorities after them?

[Ralfarius]

Huh? They go around killing random people and they don't know why are authorities after them?

They sound like they may be what some refer to as 'weenies' or 'wieners'. It's kind of a technical term, but basically it means they think they're cool for doing something which isn't inherently cool, and anything that suggests the contrary is an affront to their sensibilities.

[Drider]

Of, if they are about to do something unnecessarily violent, drop a Tarrasque on 'em

Tarrasque falls, everybody dies.

[Arakune]

I'm almost too embarassed to admit it but I'm one of the youngest in the group and I'm 18. The rest are around 19 and 20.

How evil are they? Well...they routinely rape barwenches, bite out the throats of their enemies, murder unsuspecting commoners including children, and act very flippantly to persons in positions of authority.

I know that last one isn't too evil, but he's the king dammit!

On a side note, I would try to convince them to be neutral, but they usually end up with the same personalities. Even on those off chances they're good they tend to play violent antiheroes.

Ask to be the DM and punish their characters in a horrible way.

What? That's fun, and consistent.

[....]

Order the Paranoid rulebooks.

Then you can kill each other all you want, and anyone else to. Just be sure to shout they're a commie before you off them.

[The_Werebear]

Well...

There is another way. Play a character who is so sickeningly twisted that they get creeped out and want you to go the other way. Buy a BOVD, tell the other players you have found a way to empower the group, and sacrifice a party member. Have a high bluff. Tell the victim it is only a minor bloodletting for ritual purposes. Then actually Coup De Grace them. Use a Pick or a Scythe. Get benefits. Watch them get sick of evil.

[Deepblue706]

You could always send a holy order of high-level paladins after them. They may become scared of the "Smite Evil" ability, alone - especially after when they see it coming from atop a divine mount doing a spirited charge on their asses. If you can't persuade people to see your way, beating it into them works...sometimes. Well, hey, if it doesn't, you can still be satisfied with saying "Okay, since each lance does three times the normal damage, and oh, hey, that one was a critical hit, too..."

[Arioch]

If played well and with prepared players, evil campaigns can be very fun. What really annoys me, though, is the "Good is boring" attitude that comes with enjoying roleplaying evil for a lot of people.

I'd reccomend making as realistic an evil character as you can think of. They'll get bumped out of their fantasy villain shells pretty fast if you show them what real evil is like.

[Alex12]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Edit: I actually like Alex12's idea a lot, but I see bad things happening to that cleric in his sleep...

Okay, the players get upset?
"You broke the law and killed a bunch of people/raped a barwench/desecrated a holy place/whatever. Of course the law is looking out for you."
"Well how do they know what we look like?"
"Scrying. They're not ignorant sheep, they do have brains, and they really don't like people murdering children and such."
Or, give them some variation of what I like to call the "GINOH" test.
While traveling, they see an elderly man clearly struggling with some part of a wagon or something that's broken. He asks for their help. If they laugh at him or ignore him or something, then they get attacked by a group of Paladins and clerics who were told by their god to teach the group a lesson. If the group helps the old man, he thanks them with something very valuable. If they attack him...
"The old man falls dead in a pool of blood. Suddenly, his body starts twitching, glowing, and humming (or something to that effect) and a gout of smoke billows from the corpse. As the smoke coalesces into a human form, you hear a booming voice inside your head. 'In the centuries I have lived, I, [insert name of powerful good-aligned god here] have never seen such blatant evil! You shall be punished!'"
Then, in a more normal voice,
"Congrats, you just pissed off a god."

As for the "murder the cleric in his sleep" bit, well, the thing about gods is that they won't necessarily tell you when you've finished your mission. Do their characters really want to bring about the apocalypse? Plus, you wouldn't be bossing them around, but you'd be doing things like breaking up fights, etc.

[Renegade Paladin]

cupkeyk hit the nail on the head. I'm sorry that I didn't mention it before, but since we don't really have a permanent dm we all kind of exchange roles. As you can imagine they sort of let things slide when they run, and when I'm dming as soon as the law comes running the players get upset and want to know why.

Wait. What? They don't know why the authorities are after them when they're breaking every single law on the books? I'm sorry, but I begin to get the feeling that your fellow players dumped INT, to put it bluntly; why they'd have enemies after raping said enemies' sisters is blatantly obvious.

[Xuincherguixe]

I like evil games. But it's good to have some variety.

The solution isn't to just do nasty things to them until they agree. That's a great way for the group to just decide they aren't interested in playing any more.

Maybe you can try and get them to play good, but really dark types. Looking for some monster vicious and nasty enough to beat them in honorable combat. Or someone who's cursed and brings suffering to everyone around him, and they can't kill themselves because they have some important task to complete. Maybe a guy that needs to keep cutting himself or else a demon will rip out of his head before moving into a new host with similar conditions.

You know, nice depressing stuff like that ^_^ That's probably more fun than, "I give the 51st baby cancer too."

[nobodylovesyou4]

Well...

There is another way. Play a character who is so sickeningly twisted that they get creeped out and want you to go the other way. Buy a BOVD, tell the other players you have found a way to empower the group, and sacrifice a party member. Have a high bluff. Tell the victim it is only a minor bloodletting for ritual purposes. Then actually Coup De Grace them. Use a Pick or a Scythe. Get benefits. Watch them get sick of evil.

very good idea. go into necrophilia and use the corpses of enemies as sex toys. summon demons to possess you and vomit constantly, while speaking in tongues. skewer children and carry their corpses for food. sacrifice an entire village to the Dead Cthulhu, while chanting over and over "Phnw'glui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl f'taghn". do the most sickening things imaginable until the OTHERS are sick of evil.

[Sofaking]

Trick them all into putting on those helms of opposite alignment.

[Dorizzit]

I have to say the going too far the other way and making them realize just what evil really is is a good idea.

[Renegade Paladin]

I say drop a few inevitables on them; they're bound to do something that would get one sent after them at some point.