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Thread: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
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2022-07-10, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Sure, and I wasn't trying to imply D&D was unique or anything. It just gets it more often because of a mixture of a majority only considering it and common misinterpretations about what it does well. Common misinterpretations very happily supported by the designers and marketing.
But even games that theoretically do every genre don't do everything well.
As to high level D&D, it's not perfect. A couple of editions imply that high level magic is more common than it should be, and by this point you crossed the spellcaster/mundane turnover point over ten levels ago. It's not going to let you play gods anywhere near as easily as Nobilis will, for example, but you can kind of glue something together.
Although if we have the power of gods I'd still rather play Nobilis/Glitch.
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2022-07-10, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2015
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Indeed, D&D marketing has always been very happy to claim their system does things - often to the point of writing whole sourcebooks about those things, like 'intrigue' - that it is in fact quite terrible at. This is by no means unique to D&D - WW wrote whole game lines that were absolutely not about the thing that the promotional material claimed they were about at all, like Aberrant - but it looms larger because of D&D's outsize market share.
Somewhat oddly for a relatively niche hobby, in the TTRPG marketplace there's a very significant sense that marketing is everything - that popularity is entirely dependent upon how cool the pitch is, how great the art looks, and so on and the mechanical solidity of a game is way, way down the list of reasons behind a game's popularity. Personally I suspect this has a lot to do with how very few tables play games anything like the rules as written and how a good GM can make a great game out even the most jaw-droppingly terrible of systems. Or, as freeform reveals, no system at all.
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2022-07-10, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Australia
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
There might be a generation/region/country gap here, but as a 51 YO Australian who's played with 3 main groups since 1990 and was part of a Uni roleplaying club, I've never been in a group that only played D&D except for a year or so in high school - and that was just one campaign.
To me, this advice is entirely reasonable.
When the current campaign ends you say to your group "Hi folks, I'm happy to run the next game. I've got an Idea for a Fate game set in a universe where anthopomophic animals all live on different planets. The party start as..."
Anyone else wanting to run something put forward their offering and a decision is made.
The last "game start up" I was involved with was when a friend offered a group that included one mutual friend and one who has played a bit in the past but not with anyone I know.
He offered 5th ed D&D, a post apocalyptic mutant game, an Ars Magic apprentices game and a few other options.
So a change of game normally requires you to sit behind the screen, at least until your group are used to trying different games, then you might get someone else to agree to run the one you really want.
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2022-07-11, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
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Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
There are so many people out that will define themselves like this "I am a D&D 5th ed player." Or "I play D&D 3.5."
These comments are actually absurd. Like a carpenter saying they limit their tool set to 2 items. What? You are a role player or roll player that knows a certain rule set out of dozens of popular rule sets. As a community we need to focus on gameplay and not just a rule set. D&D is combat heavy, there are other rule sets out there that do political intrigue better, or more that do mystery better, or others that are group storytelling focused instead of relying on the DM the most.
I say treat RPG games like we do board games. You play RISK, how about Axis and Allies instead. You play Monopoly, how about trying out Powergrid. You like the game of life, how about "Bring out Your Dead"? One can switch those games up without suddenly not liking Risk/Monopoly/Life. And next time you play you can go back to Risk.
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2022-07-11, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
While I like your post (we played Diplomacy long before we tried Risk, and playing one did not mean not playing the other ever again) tribal behavior of varying kinds is a semi natural human thing.
Spoiler: RL example based somewhat on musical tastesThere was a movie based on an album by The Who {Quadrophenia} that explored some of the differences in tribal behaviors between the so called Mods and the so called Rockers.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-07-11 at 04:06 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-11, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Oh, totally. There's a reason I've spent money on Hell on Earth Reloaded but not the other Deadlands settings, it's just a more enticing pitch for me ,( I do plan to get the others sometime, but not right now).
A thing that's hard for those of us who like using mechanics is that for most people mechanical solidity of a game doesn't matter. They actually don't want to engage with mechanics that deeply, and so 'the D&D skill rules suck' isn't seen as a reason to avoid using it for skill-focusrd campaigns. It's also why this forum is used to D&D combats lasting six real life hours and twelve in-game seconds, instead of half an hour and half a dozen rounds. Most people don't care because they'll never engage with the subsystems or because home patches are easy.
But I've yet to see a GM who could run a decent FATAL game. One who could run almost anything else, but the things in that book are better left untouched. Although FATAL probably failed/succeeded as hard as it did because of it's terrible 'marketing'.
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2022-07-11, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
There is a significant difference between RPGs and board games in terms of how much time they require, though. Even a one-shot is going to last longer than a game of nearly all board games, and a full campaign is on another level entirely. There's no comparison between "Hey, let's spend forty-five minutes playing this cool game I found next weekend" and "Let's play a six-month campaign of this cool game I found".
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-07-11, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Forty five minutes for a board game? That's relatively rare in my experience, and serious games can often have similar playtimes to an RPG session. Sometimes longer.
I'd say either twenty minutes or two hours is normal, depending on if the game is meant to be quick or not. Shorter than an RPG session, but two hours can still be a big ask.
(Campaigns are a different issue, but we shouldn't discount one shots.)Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2022-07-11 at 06:32 PM.
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2022-07-11, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Location
- Bristol, UK
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2022-07-11, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-07-12, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
"Board games" covers a number of game genres with great variance in both set-up and play time. So does "roleplaying games". Most generalized "board games versus roleplaying games" hence only serve to demonstrate the person making the argument has not played enough different board and roleplaying games.
To put some perspective to things: Finnish roleplaying convention Ropecon held a scenario design contest for years. Design goals for these scenarios included that a game group can pick them up with no prior knowledge of a game system, learn the relevant rules in 15 minutes and play through the scenario in 1 hour.
This is one pool of dozens of short roleplaying games, if a short roleplaying game is what you want. If they don't make a splash in these kinds of discussions, it's ironically because they're distributed for free under license by a non-profit organization, instead of being put in a neat box and marketed with big money by a toy company.
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2022-07-12, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
And there are absolutely board games that have six month campaigns. (Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death, any given legacy game).
But yeah, there are some you can handle in an hour.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2022-07-12, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
The rules for a new modern board game usually takes 45 minutes just to figure out and explain.
But you're not wrong, once the rules are known board games tend to be in 2 hours to play range, from Monopoly yo Risk to Axis and Allies to Gloomhaven. Where-as the standard / norm for TTRPGs seems to be 4 hours for a session.Last edited by Tanarii; 2022-07-12 at 09:12 AM.
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2022-07-12, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2022-07-12, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Even twenty minute games tend to be played multiple times in an evening - a two-hour session sounds about right.
This is why one-shots and open table campaigns can help - the investment is much, much lower. That and games that don't require front-loading of a ton of rules."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2022-07-12, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Personally I have no strong reason to hold four hour sessions specifically other than the fact that four hours is the minimum amount of work that will net a convention game master a free day ticket to the event. It would not surprise me at all if the standard originated from some event organization or organized play format.
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2022-07-12, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
I've played Apples to Apples derivatives for four straight hours before (in fact it's the only way I've played CAH). So yeah, I totally get what you mean about shorter games. The people I know who do regular board games afternoons/evenings generally run for four to six hours while playing two games, including multiple rounds of shorter games.
It's also just a really good length for a weeknight game session. Savage Worlds points this out: you ask everyone to arrive at six, can be certain that everybody's turned up and has their food eaten or sorted by 7, and then stop at 11 so people can get home by midnight.
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2022-07-13, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- Wyoming
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Ours are weekly 7-10 and a lot of actual plays online clock in just under 3 hours for RPG sessions.
This includes chit-chat time as well. Of course, that could be why we are on session 60 of CoS with no end in sight.*This Space Available*
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2022-07-13, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
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2022-07-13, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Gender
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
What!? Thats always been the case, if anything its the best its ever been, since 2nd edition's broken mechanics and horrible lore bits are no longer screwing things up. The only thing I don't like about it the edition is stuff that is relatively minor compared to all the things it fixed so that it function.
Lunars are literally the best they've ever been, Exigents preview is out and is awesome and like funded to meet a bunch of stretch goals like all the other kicksters, DB's aside from being more likely to go to civil war and having more non-realm society detailed are the same in lore but mechanically better. the worst part of the edition is core because Solars don't have the experienced hand of other splats making their charmset not as efficient as others could be, but even then Solars work pretty well.
Honestly, I'm probably just too lazy about where I search for a game online.
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2022-07-15, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2022-07-15, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: "Maybe D&D isn't for you..."
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
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