LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Metastachydium]

I was poking fun at the fact that adding even a handful of named female characters would be a dramatic increase given their paucity in the original. (And in case it wasn't clear, the statistic was totally made up, it's not like I sat down and calculated how many more the series will have than the movies.)

Don't worry, I'm aware.

Obviously the impact those characters have on the story will depend on what is done with them narratively.

Glad we agree, then.

[Psyren]

Glad we agree, then.

We agree that it has the potential to go either way, but I'm a bit more bullish on the attempt than you appear to be.

[Sapphire Guard]

And what we're getting from Galadriel is already a bit weird

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Seems like she sees the evil thing exists and is trying to convince other people, which is one of the most generic plots available for a female lead.

She's like 3,000 years old, she's not the stifled princess downtrodden by society, she's royalty and a sorceress who commands respect and deference. Hope they don't waste time with a 'no one will listen to me so I have to do it myself 'plot. Elrond shouldn't be speaking like that to his mother in law, even if he disagrees he would do it more respectfully.

And that fake Irish accent from the Hobbits hits me like nails on a chalkboard and I don't know why.

[Aedilred]

Indeed, I'm not personally satisfied until a minimum of three people have thrown themselves from the balcony in despair at any social gathering I attend. When I'm online I don't hold myself to that standard.

But I really don't think there's much other than despair warranted when all we're really being served up here is a long fanfilm of a long fanfilm. They're not ripping off Tolkien, they're ripping off Peter Jackson. (Not forgetting that Peter Jackson himself only made three good fanfilms, pouring much of his malice, his cruelty, and his desire to dominate all life into them ... as evidenced by the soulless celluloid of the Hobbit films that followed them.)

Let's be fair, he made four good fanfilms: the three Lord of the Ringses and King Kong.

[Saintheart]

Let's be fair, he made four good fanfilms: the three Lord of the Ringses and King Kong.

I prefer to call it Ring Wrong, but whatever.

[Metastachydium]

We agree that it has the potential to go either way, but I'm a bit more bullish on the attempt than you appear to be.

Well, these are bearish times, and

I'm jaded like that.

[Divayth Fyr]

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Seems like she sees the evil thing exists and is trying to convince other people, which is one of the most generic plots available for a female lead.

She's like 3,000 years old, she's not the stifled princess downtrodden by society, she's royalty and a sorceress who commands respect and deference. Hope they don't waste time with a 'no one will listen to me so I have to do it myself 'plot. Elrond shouldn't be speaking like that to his mother in law, even if he disagrees he would do it more respectfully.

And that fake Irish accent from the Hobbits hits me like nails on a chalkboard and I don't know why.

I think she'd be closer to 4000 at this point. Not like it makes much of a difference, since I agree with the rest of what you've said. Though I saw plenty of comments along the lines of "this Galadriel is young, so..." which all made me go WTF?

Remind me, what was the budget for this mess again? Obviously printed shirts don't give me "huge money" vibes...

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[Sapphire Guard]

1 billion includes 250 million for the rights, and it's for all five seasons and marketing. It's still a very expensive show, butn selling us that figure has backfired on them hard.

[warty goblin]

That honestly seems more like an issue with the costume design than the budget, where somebody decided to use scale for the base layer and they got into trouble because scale is bulky and can't do things like armpits. Clearly they had no issue with fabricating absolute gobs of scaled material for everything else.

[Vinyadan]

Can we stop saying 800% more women? It is kind of a real valid criticism to say that LOTR and The Hobbit have almost no women. Likewise we actually have more Women Tolkien characters in The Silmarillion (aka Zero and First Age).

In the case of the LotR, I don't think it is. When Tolkien was at the front, while he thought of and wrote to Edith, the fighters around him were all men. And books about military expeditions will almost exclusively have men as fighters, because that has historically been a man's thing. I don't feel like dumping on the Iliad or the Anabasis or Red Cavalry because they didn't have enough women in the ranks. I don't feel like critiquing a book because it followed literary predecessors and the author's experience to lend some substance and realism to the story. For example, Sam was inspired by Tolkien's batman. Scenes like Imrahil checking Eowin's breath or an exhausted Sam suddenly falling asleep while hiding in a ditch were probably close to things he had seen. This, for me, is the main reason: literary and moral quality (as in, adherence to a certain idea) do not overlap (the way they are attributed is also quite different, and manifest different instabilities). It's why in school they sometimes give simple new books to the kids to read, because they carry certain values, even if they aren't literary masterworks. Those are a different category, which does make people grow, but by giving them the means to understand (understand what? A lot of stuff.).

Another reason is that LotR actually starts in a world where men wielding power are almost always inadequate. Isildur did not destroy the Ring, Theoden got duped, Denethor went insane, Saruman joined Sauron, Lotho was a murdered Quisling. (btw, all arguably alienated men without a wife to support them -- Isildur hadn't seen his since he had left Imladris years earlier). Outsiders have to pick up the pieces. These outsiders can be tiny Hobbits, mysterious vagrants with secret resources, or women: why does Eowin have to fight and defeat the Nazgul? Because a man -- Denethor -- was on a murder-suicide rampage, and the angelic being who was about to fight the Witch King had to go stop Denethor instead. And, in the Shire, it's Lobelia that acts bravely and attacks Sharkey's men, and is immediately imprisoned.
With this I don't mean that Tolkien really envisioned a man vs woman divide. But "while the great are otherwise busy, the rest have to act" is a strong message in the book, and its value cuts across different groups.

Reason number three is that, outside of warrior roles, you do meet women. Minas Tirith had been evacuated before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, yet a number of brave women decided to stay and help the war effort as nurses. It's the sort of courage Tolkien would have seen in enlisted women in WW1. When the learned men get derailed by lore contests, it's a woman that has the Kingsfoil stored. The Shire has lots of women. The Elves, too. They are not protagonists, but they are there. Outside military life, the only people explicitly without women are the Ent, and that's a big deal for them. It means that they are on the wane. And, while Fangorn does critique the Entwives (an orderly life = do as I say), it's clear that they have been pivotal figures for mankind, given that they taught men agriculture. Fangorn's critique is, in itself, interesting: living apart from them, he has never understood them. He expects that the Ents will have to lose their lands, before they can find a new one where the Entwives can be happy with them. In the letters, Tolkien explained that he expected no such reunion; even in the possibility of surviving Entwives (but he found more likely that they were all dead), short of a common revolt against industrialisazion, they would have become even more estranged from the Ents. (I also can't help but wonder if, had the two groups stayed together, they would have survived against Sauron).

Finally, the two most respected entities mentioned in the book are Galadriel and Elbereth. It's what makes me go "uh?" when people say that there aren't women in LotR. They are there, and are borderline divine figures. They are not protagonists, but they are bigger than the protagonists. Tinuviel is also somewhere there.

When Rohan / Edoras was evacuated for Helms Deep we barely see any women in the books even if these refugees would have lots of women and children. Likewise the same in the peaceful elf cities Lothlórien and Rivendell.

Women are actually mentioned a few times with refence to Rohan. Gandalf suggests they take refuge, Gamling informs Theoden that they have taken refuge, and, after the battle, they come out of Helm's Deep; then again in chapter 3 of RotK, and they later weep at Theoden's burial. In Lorien the maidens of Galadriel have made with her the cloaks for the Fellowship, and accompany her when the Fellowship leaves.

[Mechalich]

Reason number three is that, outside of warrior roles, you do meet women.

This is key. Tolkien's works describe quasi-historical societies with a strong divide in gender roles, something found in both the scholarship of the time and in the literary sources he derived from heavily (most of which were many centuries old). He then chose to focus the detail of his stories on warfare, a sphere that was male-dominated to a greater degree than almost any other. Basically every male character in LotR ends up in battle at some point. That the Silmarillion has more female characters fit this expectation, because it has proportionally less warfare and more political and domestic sequences (Tolkien had no issue with female rulers, in addition to Galadriel and other elves, Numenor had multiple ruling queens).

The Amazon series could keep the strong gender role aspects of Middle-Earth societies and still have lots of highly significant female characters. This is especially so given that the Second Age really isn't about great wars. There's one big war in the Second Age - War of the Elves and Sauron, in which the Elves and the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum (Moria) get thoroughly whupped until the Numenoreans show up and absolutely curbstomp Sauron's forces. This war will presumably happen in the show, because Celebrimbor is listed as a character in the show and in addition to making the Rings he is the war's most notable casualty.

But that's it. There are no other significant wars during the Second Age save the conflict of the Last Alliance against Sauron (the Prologue of Peter Jackson's LotR films) which probably won't appear or will be the final episode. Everything else is politics. If there's going to be 5 seasons of show, figure the War consumes most of Season Two. Beyond that, there's not going to be a lot of armies in battle. So there is absolutely room for, and should be, important female characters even if the traditional gender role of only males as soldiers is retained.

[Vinyadan]

So there is absolutely room for, and should be, important female characters even if the traditional gender role of only males as soldiers is retained.

There is Erendis, the wife of the Numenorean king Tar-Aldarion. Aldarion was a great ship-builder and sea-traveller, which was instrumental for Numenor's building of alliances and contacts in Middle-Earth, but which made him an absentee husband and father. They lived separate lives full of grudges, and their daughter Acalime became the first Reigning Queen of Numenor. It's actually a pretty ugly story, with "my daughter, not your daughter", and both acting unyeldingly until the relationship is completely broken. Their daughter also turned out to be cold and controlling in family matters. It's a sad story about inflexible temperaments destroying familiar harmony, and a fairly long one (from the Unfinished Tales).

Silmarien instead was the first daughter of a Numenorean king. She did not inherit the throne, was instead given Andunie in Numenor, and her descendants (the Lords of Andunie) included Amandil, Elendil, and Isildur. I don't think there's much material about her, but I believe fans would enjoy seeing a version of her story.

[Fyraltari]

There is Erendis, the wife of the Numenorean king Tar-Aldarion. Aldarion was a great ship-builder and sea-traveller, which was instrumental for Numenor's building of alliances and contacts in Middle-Earth, but which made him an absentee husband and father. They lived separate lives full of grudges, and their daughter Acalime became the first Reigning Queen of Numenor. It's actually a pretty ugly story, with "my daughter, not your daughter", and both acting unyeldingly until the relationship is completely broken. Their daughter also turned out to be cold and controlling in family matters. It's a sad story about inflexible temperaments destroying familiar harmony, and a fairly long one (from the Unfinished Tales).

I really love this story, out of all the tales of this universe it stands out in how mundane it is. There's no dark lord, no terrible Oaths made before the thrones of gods, no great war, just two people who thought they were right for each other and weren't. Just a failing marriage between two flawed individuals.

[runeghost]

And what we're getting from Galadriel is already a bit weird

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Seems like she sees the evil thing exists and is trying to convince other people, which is one of the most generic plots available for a female lead.

She's like 3,000 years old, she's not the stifled princess downtrodden by society, she's royalty and a sorceress who commands respect and deference. Hope they don't waste time with a 'no one will listen to me so I have to do it myself 'plot. Elrond shouldn't be speaking like that to his mother in law, even if he disagrees he would do it more respectfully.

The little we've seen so far with Galadriel's role is pretty in keeping with the Legendarium...

Spoiler: Spoilers for... semi-obscure Middle-Earth history?

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depending on precisely which version of Galadriel you go with (Tolkien kept re-writing her backstory and it was never really a consistent whole). She founded Eregion, and was then ousted by Celebrimbor, and left, eventually ending up in Lorien. She and her younger cousin Celebrimbor obviously weren't unfriends, even with the whole leadership change in Eregion, since he kept making her potent magical items, which she in turn accepted. (I.e. The Elessar and Narya.) But the whole core of their spat seems to be "This guy Annatar is Bad News, Coz." "No way, he's totally awesome and I really like him and his ideas."

And she's not Elrond's mother-in-law yet. This version of her hasn't even met her husband yet. Elrond is basically the young punk of "old elvish nobility" in the Second Age. He doubtless thinks he's been through some heinous stuff - and to be fair, he totally has: the destruction of his home and loss (if technically not death) of his parents, being raised by a tormented and anguished mass-murderer, the War of Wrath, and the separation and eventual loss of his brother. But compared to Galadriel's experiences that's small potatoes. She starts with the Darkening of Valinor, the repeated betrayals of Feanor, the crossing of the Helcaraxe, the long defeat of the Siege of Angband and the deaths of all her brothers at the hands of Morgoth's servants, all Three Kinslayings, the ruin of Beleriand and Doriath, and finally seeing the lands she'd fought for for centuries, that her brothers and uncles and cousins had died for, broken and sunk beneath the waves and called a "victory". (No wonder she told the Valar to take their forgiveness and shove it.)

"No one will listen to me and I'll do it myself" is Galadriel's plot in the Legendarium, repeatedly. In addition to "This Annatar guy is bad news, you shouldn't listen to him" (to be fair, Cirdan, Gil-galad, and Elrond did agree with her - but the people of her own realm did not). Some other examples:

"I want to leave, too, but Feanor is bad news and you shouldn't put your faith in him."

"Attacking the Teleri is wrong, and will give everyone involved bad karma."

"We shouldn't hide everything from Thingol and especially Melian, someone should go level with them, even if we don't share all your wickedest secrets."

"I know the Host of the Valar and the Lords of the West say this is over, but it's not. Shove your amnesty, I'm staying."

"This Necromancer is bad news, we need to team up against him. Btw, Gandalf should take point on this, he's better suited for it than Saruman."

[Psyren]

Well, these are bearish times, and

I never said you weren't jaded (obviously you stated you are), rather I was adding a bit more context to the thing we supposedly agree on.

I think she'd be closer to 4000 at this point. Not like it makes much of a difference, since I agree with the rest of what you've said. Though I saw plenty of comments along the lines of "this Galadriel is young, so..." which all made me go WTF?

Remind me, what was the budget for this mess again? Obviously printed shirts don't give me "huge money" vibes...

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I mean, 4000 for a Calaquendi is right out of diapers... right?

(Kidding, kiddng! Tolkien scholars please don't shred me)

[Sapphire Guard]

It's hard to tell. Going by book lore, Celebrian was born early second age, but the show isn't following book lore, they're compressing the timeline. Which is fine, it's a creative choice.

We don't have much by way of info yet, but they appear to be trying to push Galadriel as both the veteran who has seen some things and the young upstart no one listens to.

It might work, but it's also a very generic plot for a female lead. Can't have our protagonist be a mother with a child, can we? We've got to be diverse, but not too far.

[Divayth Fyr]

Arguably a compressed timeline should be even more of a reason for Celeborn to be there (after all Isildur is around, so anything goes...) with Galadriel. But that would undermine what seems to be their (generic) plot, so he'll be mysteriously absent.

[Tyndmyr]

We don't have much by way of info yet, but they appear to be trying to push Galadriel as both the veteran who has seen some things and the young upstart no one listens to.

It might work, but it's also a very generic plot for a female lead. Can't have our protagonist be a mother with a child, can we? We've got to be diverse, but not too far.

That's a strange mix, especially given the canonical lifespans of elves. When you've got an elf that's seen some things....its a ton of things compared to most.

The trailer had a lot of pretty scenery, but not an awful lot of compelling plot. Showing off the CGI budget, I guess? So far, I'm fairly pessimistic. The things we are being shown are not exceptionally good signs.

[Vinyadan]

I wouldn't say the young upstart, more like the extremely old person anchored to memories of a world the others haven't seen, with the result that they cannot understand why she acts that way. The scene with the bodies suspended in a sea of fire could have been the Dagor Bragollach, where two of her brothers died. Or it could be the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, with fire from battle lighting the water red.

Plus, she simply didn't have the authority to impose her politics on other elf rulers, since they were all beneath High King Gil-galad. Which makes discussions among peers not unlikely.

[Mechalich]

That's a strange mix, especially given the canonical lifespans of elves. When you've got an elf that's seen some things....its a ton of things compared to most.

The trailer had a lot of pretty scenery, but not an awful lot of compelling plot. Showing off the CGI budget, I guess? So far, I'm fairly pessimistic. The things we are being shown are not exceptionally good signs.

I find the focus on the Elves alongside the addition of Hobbits (and to a lesser extent Dwarves) to be worrying, especially compared to the relatively limited amount of time spent on the Human characters particularly worrying. The Second Age is defined by the actions of the Numenoreans, the 'special' humans with enhanced physiques, lifespans, and abilities, and by Sauron. Everyone else is very much not central to events as they unfold. The Elves are weakened, the Dwarves are isolated, and the non-Numenorean humans are largely enslaved to Sauron (though not openly).

The show is apparently to be five seasons, mashing all the significant events of the Second Age together. That means season one should have two major plots: Sauron (as Annatar) seducing the elves of Eregion and ultimately leading the design of the rings (the forging of the One Ring ought to be the final scene of the season); and Ar-Pharazon's rise to power. That way in Season Two you could do the War of the Elves and Sauron and conclude with the Numenoreans showing up at the end and Sauron surrendering to Ar-Pharazon. Seasons Three would be about the zenith of Numenor, its growing corruption, and the spread of darkness across Middle Earth (including the corruption of the Seven and the Nine). Then Season Four would be the Fall of Numenor and Season Five would be about the assembly of the Last Alliance.

At least that's how I would do it, but rumors swirling around the show suggest Amazon has decided otherwise and they aren't even introducing Sauron in Season One at all (supported by the fact that no one has been cast to play Sauron/Annatar). I find that extremely troubling. Epic melodrama needs a great villain. Sauron in the Second Age is a fantastic role for the right actor and seems like an obvious way to go, but it seems this team thought otherwise.

[Zevox]

(supported by the fact that no one has been cast to play Sauron/Annatar).

They haven't? What? How on earth can you do a show set in the Second Age without Sauron? That's kind of his whole era, when he's at his peak and is more active than he ever was at any other time in history. What are they even doing if he's not the main villain?

[JadedDM]

They haven't? What? How on earth can you do a show set in the Second Age without Sauron? That's kind of his whole era, when he's at his peak and is more active than he ever was at any other time in history. What are they even doing if he's not the main villain?

The current fan theory, to my understanding, is that Sauron won't be introduced until season 2.

[Divayth Fyr]

Some rumours floating around claim

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Halbrand

is actually Sauron. Obviously take it with a mountain of salt.

And returning to the topic of age, the internet never disappoints. Or always does.

[Zevox]

The current fan theory, to my understanding, is that Sauron won't be introduced until season 2.

Which leaves season 1 doing, what? There's not a ton of conflict in the Second Age that doesn't revolve around Sauron. Are we going to be spending the whole season on Numenorean politics or something?

Some rumours floating around claim

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Halbrand

is actually Sauron. Obviously take it with a mountain of salt.

*looks up who that is* My only question would be: but why though? We know the guise he takes to get close to the Elves, and that's not it, so why introduce another one that would seem to be being used for the same purpose, if that's really him?

And returning to the topic of age, the internet never disappoints. Or always does.

"Young Sauron." Yeah, unless we're getting the Music of the Ainur here, that is such a misnomer. Though I guess your average, not-Tolkien-nerd person can't be expected to know that... although the fact that Sauron is around in a series set thousands of years before The Lord of the Rings should be something of a hint...

[Ramza00]

That's a strange mix, especially given the canonical lifespans of elves. When you've got an elf that's seen some things....its a ton of things compared to most.

The trailer had a lot of pretty scenery, but not an awful lot of compelling plot. Showing off the CGI budget, I guess? So far, I'm fairly pessimistic. The things we are being shown are not exceptionally good signs.

This may drive some Tolkien canon fans nutty, but isn’t the solution to this is the Elves reincarnation which we have limited info from Tolkien and thus if they go this route they have the freedom to do lots of things (and thus some fans will be big mad.). Galadriel can be a being who recently rejoined a physical location never having died, or perhaps recently died and reincarnated.

One of the big lore facts is the second age is when the Hall of Mandos / Recrafting a body is possible but near the end of the 2nd age with the fall of Númenor the creator god Ilúvatar stepped in and said no more reincarnation, that the elves can rejoin the Valar and the lands of the west, yet it is a one way trip.

——

Likewise we can talk about the Elves lifecycle and how their childhood of the first 100 years is curious and mysterious, they have an adulthood, and then a third cycle where they are full of knowledge, wisdom, but also ennui while the second cycle younger adults still have the excitement the older / third cycle elves no longer have.

My point is what we are describing with Galadriel with why she is the young upstart pointing to evil can be cultural, and the nature of Elvish culture will be different than our 2020s humans culture, yet while it is not familiar it should make its own form of sense and logics.

[Corvus]

I'm rather ambivalent about the whole thing - it being from Amazon doesn't help.

I'm not sure how they can get 5 seasons out of a handful of footnotes at the back of the books. The Hobbit got so much padding out and suffered as a result. This will just take it up to another level. Maybe it will work. Maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see.

On Galadriel, at this point she is just about the oldest and most powerful elf still running around Middle Earth. The High King Gil-Galad is younger than her, having been born in First Age after the Noldor left Valinor - Galadriel had been born in Valinor. I can't recall any of the named characters besides Galadriel born in Valinor who were still around in the Second Age. Cirdan was older, but he was Sindar and had never been to Valinor. She met Celeborn in Doriath in the First Age, as he was a kinsman of Thingol, the King of Doriath. So Celeborn she be in the picture in the Second Age.

And Gil-Galad is canonically the first of the Eldar to have mistrusted Annatar (aka the disguised Sauron.) So having Galadriel trying to warn others about Annatar when the High King already mistrusted him is going way off canon.

[Mechalich]

I'm not sure how they can get 5 seasons out of a handful of footnotes at the back of the books. The Hobbit got so much padding out and suffered as a result. This will just take it up to another level.

These are 8 episode seasons, so they aren't actually that long. At an average of 45 minutes per episode you've only got six hours per season. If you have A, B, C, and D plots that's only 90 minutes per plot per season - and four plots makes sense: Elf, Human, Dwarf, and Hobbit.

Now, it's true that the source material is very thin on the ground, but it's enough to serve as a rough outline. For example, the War of the Elves and Sauron summarizes out in a handful of paragraphs, but you can sort than into a handful of events to fill a season easily:
Episode One: Sauron and the Elves martial their forces, Sauron's armies march from the East to the West
Episode Two: Gil-Galad sends Elrond as reinforcement. Word is send to Numenor for aid. Early skirmishes in Eregion
Episode Three: Fall of Ost-in-Edhil and the capture of Celebrimbor - a big action set piece
Episode Four: Torture of Celebrimbor, Refugees flee Eregion, debate in Numenor
Episode Five: Elrond surrounded by Sauron, elves flee to Kazad-Dum, the dwarves martial their forces to face Sauron and are joined by Galadriel
Episode Six: the dwarves and Galadhrim battle with Sauron, Elrond breaks out to what will become Rivendell, the gates of Khazad-Dum are shut
Episode Seven: Sauron's forces overrun Eriador, Elven forces driven to make a last stand at the River Lhun. Sauron acquires the Seven and the Nine
Episode Eight: The Numenoreans arrive, the Battle of the Gwathlo - a titanic action set piece, Sauron's armies destroyed

There, outline completed. Now, you still have to actually write out these episodes and put the various characters into place, deal with the fantasy logistics, and decide where you wish to put the bulk of the money (for example, I would stage the Fall of Ost-in-Edhil as a mess of fire and destruction as Sauron's forces sack the city and keep the fighting to small heroic stands to save set piece money for the Battle of the Gwathlo later), and so forth, but that's a viable season of TV.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's not surprising that Sauron wouldn't be using his actual name, maybe 'who was really behind all this' will be the big reveal of season 1.

Galadriel is older and has seen more, but the First Age isn't ancient history to the others, some of them were around for it. Going to be very difficult to make this timeline work. She can't impose her will, but it is still weird that they chose a scene of her being talked down to as a trailer shot.

[Aedilred]

It's not surprising that Sauron wouldn't be using his actual name, maybe 'who was really behind all this' will be the big reveal of season 1.

But he already had a false name in the legendarium: Annatar. That was the name under which he presented himself as all-friendly-like to Celebrimbor and Numenor and created all the Rings. So either Sauron isn't in this season or they've given him a different, or bonus, fake name just for the lolz. Or I guess they just haven't announced the casting because they're keeping it under wraps: honestly not the worst idea but entirely counter to normal marketing strategy.

[Mechalich]

But he already had a false name in the legendarium: Annatar. That was the name under which he presented himself as all-friendly-like to Celebrimbor and Numenor and created all the Rings. So either Sauron isn't in this season or they've given him a different, or bonus, fake name just for the lolz. Or I guess they just haven't announced the casting because they're keeping it under wraps: honestly not the worst idea but entirely counter to normal marketing strategy.

Concealing the casting would make sense if they structured the season so that Sauron didn't appear until later on, like episode 6 or later, but that would be a pretty strange choice on its own.