LOTR: Rings of Power - New Teaser

[Fyraltari]

New trailer

You know that looks pretty good actually.

Until...

Sudden Balrog at the end?

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about that.

One of the first decent bits of marketing. "You have been told many lies of middle-earth", though? Uurgh. Meta subtext not subtle.

I mean, it seems to be sauron speaking, so...

Sudden Balrog at the end? That's odd, the only Balrog that we know to have survived the War of Wrath was Durin's Bane, and it wasn't awoken until the middle of the Third Age. Taking some liberties there, I see.

The hobbits didn't clue you in? Then again we were never told there weren't any Balrogs involved in the wars of the Second Age. We know of two of them dying in the First Age and one in the Third. Tolkien said there were
or seven of those at the maximum and Sauron is said to gathered all evil creatures for the LAst Alliance, so it's not absurd that he'd have a Balrog along with the ride (and probably a few dragons too). I just hop it's not a sign of the show leaning too much on fighting.

[Vinyadan]

The Balrog need not show up on the surface. If Sauron managed to be accepted as a friend of Moria, I can totally see him observe the Dwarven propensity for greed, then go down beneath the earth because he knows some of his old friends might be hiding there, find a still uncooperative Balrog, observe that he's surrounded by mithril, and show the Dwarves the vein. It may take centuries for them to reach the Balrog, but they will, sooner or later, and then there will be one fewer fortress to conquer.

I actually liked what I saw.

[Zevox]

Think they could have been more creative with the Balrog design, it's ripped right out of Fellowship.

Why on earth would you want them to change the design?

The hobbits didn't clue you in?

Very little was written about the history of the Hobbits, so it's a lot easier for them to take liberties with that without it seeming completely out of place. A very weird choice, considering that part of the whole point with them is that prior to Bilbo they were a historical footnote as far as the entire rest of the world was concerned, but still possible.

Then again we were never told there weren't any Balrogs involved in the wars of the Second Age. We know of two of them dying in the First Age and one in the Third. Tolkien said there were
or seven of those at the maximum and Sauron is said to gathered all evil creatures for the LAst Alliance, so it's not absurd that he'd have a Balrog along with the ride (and probably a few dragons too). I just hop it's not a sign of the show leaning too much on fighting.

While theoretically possible, you'd think that with how powerful and terrifying Balrogs are, if any of them did owe allegiance to and fight for Sauron in the Second Age, they would've been mentioned at some point. They're not exactly the sort of thing that you can easily overlook. Instead, Sauron's only major lieutenants that we hear about are the Nazgul.

[Fyraltari]

Very little was written about the history of the Hobbits, so it's a lot easier for them to take liberties with that without it seeming completely out of place. A very weird choice, considering that part of the whole point with them is that prior to Bilbo they were a historical footnote as far as the entire rest of the world was concerned, but still possible.


While theoretically possible, you'd think that with how powerful and terrifying Balrogs are, if any of them did owe allegiance to and fight for Sauron in the Second Age, they would've been mentioned at some point. They're not exactly the sort of thing that you can easily overlook. Instead, Sauron's only major lieutenants that we hear about are the Nazgul.

The Nazgûl appeared towards the end of the Second age, considering how devasted Eregion got in the War of Sauron and the Elves (long before then) it's not impossible for a Blarog to have been involved and Gil-Galad or Glorfindel or whoever to have killed him.

[Divayth Fyr]

The Nazgûl appeared towards the end of the Second age, considering how devasted Eregion got in the War of Sauron and the Elves (long before then) it's not impossible for a Blarog to have been involved and Gil-Galad or Glorfindel or whoever to have killed him.

It still feels unlikely for them to be involved and not mentioned. "Those other balrogs? Yeah, I'll detail who killed them and when, but why would I bother for these?" It isn't like there were scores of them all over the place, so an appearance was something to note (if only due to the sheer power and terror.

[Vinyadan]

The Nazgûl appeared towards the end of the Second age, considering how devasted Eregion got in the War of Sauron and the Elves (long before then) it's not impossible for a Blarog to have been involved and Gil-Galad or Glorfindel or whoever to have killed him.

This leads to an interesting question: if a Balrog is killed, should the hero also die in the fight? All three known defeated Balrogs died with their enemy (Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Gandalf). Would doing it again need to be avoided as repetitive, or ebraced as part of a wider theme?

[Fyraltari]

It still feels unlikely for them to be involved and not mentioned. "Those other balrogs? Yeah, I'll detail who killed them and when, but why would I bother for these?" It isn't like there were scores of them all over the place, so an appearance was something to note (if only due to the sheer power and terror.

I mean the three deaths we have come from very detailed stories (The Fall of Gondolin and The Lord of the Rings). All we have about the wars of the second age are more like histories, the narrator doesn't list all who were present or slain.

[Peelee]

This leads to an interesting question: if a Balrog is killed, should the hero also die in the fight? All three known defeated Balrogs died with their enemy (Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Gandalf). Would doing it again need to be avoided as repetitive, or ebraced as part of a wider theme?

Gandalf got better.

[Ramza00]

Gandalf got better.

Same with Glorfindel, gotta love the reincarnation out

[Saintheart]

Guess who's back
Back again
Sauron's back
Tell a friend

[Berserk Mecha]

The trailers don't look half bad, but I'm trying to imagine what they look like to someone who is not familiar with the source material. It looks like most of us nerds in this thread are familiar with the fall of Númenor. But even I'm wondering who most of these characters in the trailers are. Sure, I recognize Galadriel and I can guess which character Sauron is. But how are these proto-hobbits going to factor into the narrative? What are the dwarves going to do? I can't tell if there are multiple plot lines because that is what producers think is necessary for a big fantasy series or if the producers are trying to fit hobbits into the narrative because they think that is what the audience expects.

[Mechalich]

The trailers don't look half bad, but I'm trying to imagine what they look like to someone who is not familiar with the source material. It looks like most of us nerds in this thread are familiar with the fall of Númenor. But even I'm wondering who most of these characters in the trailers are. Sure, I recognize Galadriel and I can guess which character Sauron is. But how are these proto-hobbits going to factor into the narrative? What are the dwarves going to do? I can't tell if there are multiple plot lines because that is what producers think is necessary for a big fantasy series or if the producers are trying to fit hobbits into the narrative because they think that is what the audience expects.

The dwarves are much easier to include than the Hobbits. Khazad-Dum is an established realm that had long term relations with nearby Elven communities and a sub-plot where the Elves need to secure materials (mithril?) from the dwarves in order to actually forge the rings seems logical. The dwarves are also established in canon as participating in the War of Elves and Sauron, which allows for a significant role in that conflict which is presumably going to occupy a significant portion of the show. There's also the bit where the dwarves shut the Doors of Durin in the later stage of that conflict, which was presumably a matter of internal debate among the dwarves. The dwarf plot, whatever form it takes exactly, will need a lot of work, but there are at least seeds to work from.

Hobbits are much harder. There are no references at all to Hobbits prior to the Third Age. They presumably existed but had no contact with the Elves, which suggests they lived in the east and did not migrate west until later on (hypothetically, they may have been enslaved by evil men of the east in the service of Sauron and fled to the west following the victory of the Last Alliance). Worse, their absence from history largely precludes them from taking any substantial action during this series, since otherwise it would have been remembered.

I imagine Amazon wants to use a Hobbit as a viewpoint character who serves as an audience proxy because they would have no idea what is going on in Middle Earth in the same way that much of the audience would not. This isn't necessary, there are several other options for such as character, but I can see how the temptation would have formed.

[Divayth Fyr]

I imagine Amazon wants to use a Hobbit as a viewpoint character who serves as an audience proxy because they would have no idea what is going on in Middle Earth in the same way that much of the audience would not. This isn't necessary, there are several other options for such as character, but I can see how the temptation would have formed.

I imagine it was far more simple than that.

- The movies had Hobbits, we need Hobbits.
- But...
- WE. NEED. HOBBITS.

[Sapphire Guard]

Why on earth would you want them to change the design?

My understanding of Balrogs was that they were no more bound to any one physical form than any other Maia, so they don't need to look the same. Even if this actually was Durin's Bane, it wouldn't have to look the same.

It's not that I don't like the design, I just think that using it here is cheap fanservice and piggybacking on other people's work.

The promo material keeps talking about how they wanted a blank canvas, if that's true, use it, create your own things.

Somthing weird, Miriel in the materials keeps being referred to as 'Queen-Regent', meaning that she's the ruling representative of someone else. So who is actually officially on the throne? Why haven't we seen them?

Pharazon is an adviser, so it's not him.

Either there's someone else, or they're just misspelling Queen-Regnant, in which case, fire your proof reader.

[Mechalich]

Somthing weird, Miriel in the materials keeps being referred to as 'Queen-Regent', meaning that she's the ruling representative of someone else. So who is actually officially on the throne? Why haven't we seen them?

Pharazon is an adviser, so it's not him.

Either there's someone else, or they're just misspelling Queen-Regnant, in which case, fire your proof reader.

That is weird. There's basically two ways to have a regency - rule on behalf of an underaged child or rule on behalf of a disabled elder. Miriel does not, in canon, have any children, and because she needs to be unmarried prior to Pharazon forcing her into marriage she shouldn't have any in this story either. Possibly she could be ruling on behalf of a disabled Tar-Palantir, but Numenoreans aren't supposed to be subject to things like strokes, Alzheimer's, or the other common reasons for an aging monarch to lose power to a regency.

[Zevox]

My understanding of Balrogs was that they were no more bound to any one physical form than any other Maia, so they don't need to look the same. Even if this actually was Durin's Bane, it wouldn't have to look the same.

It's not that I don't like the design, I just think that using it here is cheap fanservice and piggybacking on other people's work.

I'm sure they could prior to becoming Balrogs, but after? Well, we can only speculate, but my thinking would be that they probably couldn't. Things that Morgoth corrupted tended to be twisted physically into a mockery of something good (Orcs to Elves, Trolls to Ents, and so forth), and Balrogs are consistently described as beings of flame and shadow, and never mentioned to be shape-shifters. Plus if they were just Maiar who chose to serve Morgoth, they'd be more individual lieutenants like Sauron, rather than this separate group apart from him.

And I think it's silly to call using the design "cheap fanservice and piggbacking on other people's work." The use of a Balrog at all when there's no indication one was active during the Second Age, sure, that I think could warrant that kind of criticism, but not the use of the same design. It would generally be better to have consistency there rather than reinvent it just for the sake of reinventing it, given they are clearly intending this whole show to be based on the portrayal from the films.

The promo material keeps talking about how they wanted a blank canvas, if that's true, use it, create your own things.

If they wanted that, they shouldn't be making an adaptation of anything, but coming up with something entirely their own. Just the fact that this is a Lord of the Rings-based series means they don't have a blank canvas to work with from the start.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Berserk Mecha
But even I'm wondering who most of these characters in the trailers are.

Just watched the new trailer—I hadn’t even realized there was a new one out. And yeah, apart from Galadriel I’m not entirely sure who most of them are, or what they'll be doing.

What I feel after watching this…is just exhaustion. Another grand Middle-Earth epic with orchestral themes and lavish visuals, but without any characters I actually care about. The first teaser at least looked lovely, but this is just a grind.

[Aeson]

Possibly she could be ruling on behalf of a disabled Tar-Palantir, but Numenoreans aren't supposed to be subject to things like strokes, Alzheimer's, or the other common reasons for an aging monarch to lose power to a regency.

The Akallabeth suggests otherwise:

And Atanamir lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy; and he was the first of the Numenorians to do this, refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned, and denying to his son the kingship at the height of his days.

It rather sounds like Tar-Atanamir was senile and greatly enfeebled by age at the end of his reign; his son, Tar-Ancalimon, is described as "of like mind" and much of the remainder of the Akallabeth speaks to the increasing corruption of and fear of death among the Numenorians and their disaffection with the Valar, so I rather doubt that this age-related debility was unique to Tar-Atanamir among all the kings of Numenor or even the Numenorians generally.

Considering that Miriel's father Tar-Palantir is strongly suggested to be the most moral of the last several kings of Numenor, I have some doubts that he would have held onto life and power into his senility canonically - particularly since his somewhat-younger brother died only a few years prior to Tar-Palantir's demise and was considered to have died young - but it rather seems like senility and at least some of its associated ailments and disabilities are not without precedent among the Numenorians and their kings. If she's acting as Queen-Regent for her father, a more canon-compliant possibility than that he's gone senile would be that she's his regent during a period when he's off in western Numenor hoping to catch sight of a ship coming out of Avallone and doesn't want to be bothered with the problems of government.

Regardless, if Miriel's her father's regent, wouldn't she properly be a Princess-Regent rather than a Queen-Regent? Tolkien-nobility seems to mostly stick to the British model, so it'd be weird for Miriel to become a Queen of Numenor while her father remained King, and she ought to be unmarried until after Tar-Palantir's death so she shouldn't be a queen by virtue of being married to a king if Tar-Palantir's still around. For Miriel to be a Queen-Regent suggests that, whenever this occurs, it's during Ar-Pharazon's reign - perhaps while he's away from Numenor and seeking to subjugate Sauron, or, with a fair bit of timeline compression, perhaps when the Numenorian armies go to aid the elves at the tail end of the War of the Elves and Sauron.

[Sapphire Guard]

Pharazon is cast as one of Miriel's advisors, so he hasn't made his move yet when the show begins. Can't imagine they would not cover that in the show. Don't think there's a lore solution, fairly clear they're not following book lore with this.

Most likely either her father is the official ruler, and they have a ticking clock until he dies, or a young child original character she and Pharazon are playing angel and devil on his shoulders.

It is odd that we don't know, though. It's not like 'who is the official ruler of Numenor' could be a secret in universe.

[Divayth Fyr]

Pharazon is cast as one of Miriel's advisors, so he hasn't made his move yet when the show begins. Can't imagine they would not cover that in the show. Don't think there's a lore solution, fairly clear they're not following book lore with this.

I wonder why they decided to mess up this - rather clear - part of the lore... Wait.... viziers are advisors, so they literally seem to be going with the evil vizier trope for Pharazon

Most likely either her father is the official ruler, and they have a ticking clock until he dies, or a young child original character she

Hopefully not the son they made up for show Pharazon...

Looking at some pictures, really shows how badly the various actors are cast in regards to their characters' ages. Celebrimbor looks way, way older than Galadriel, despite her being the far older one, and similiar is seen with the royal family of Numenor...


Also not sure if they really captured how close Muriel and Pharazon are related, but that is a whole different can of worms...

[Eldan]

Speaking of Balrogs... I'd actually quite like for them to go for a more book-accurate Balrog, if they have to use one. A shadowy, humanoid figure, less bestial and firey, more quietly threatening and magical.

[Sapphire Guard]

Oh, you're right, Pharazon has a son in this, I forgot about him. Doubt he'll be the ruler, though, otherwise Pharazon would be the Regent, not an advisor. Miriel seems too young to have a teenage son from a previous relationship, but... Numenorean lifespan, so maybe not.

I wonder why they decided she would be Queen Regent instead of Queen or Princess? What would be a good narrative reason for that change?

[Aedilred]

Also not sure if they really captured how close Muriel and Pharazon are related, but that is a whole different can of worms...

Maybe Miriel gets her colouring from her mother...

This sort of thing is a perennial pitfall of the can of worms that is colourblind/colour-conscious casting, though: the best one can do is hope that they have at least thought about it and therefore that there will be some kind of consistency.

Regardless, if Miriel's her father's regent, wouldn't she properly be a Princess-Regent rather than a Queen-Regent? Tolkien-nobility seems to mostly stick to the British model, so it'd be weird for Miriel to become a Queen of Numenor while her father remained King, and she ought to be unmarried until after Tar-Palantir's death so she shouldn't be a queen by virtue of being married to a king if Tar-Palantir's still around. For Miriel to be a Queen-Regent suggests that, whenever this occurs, it's during Ar-Pharazon's reign - perhaps while he's away from Numenor and seeking to subjugate Sauron, or, with a fair bit of timeline compression, perhaps when the Numenorian armies go to aid the elves at the tail end of the War of the Elves and Sauron

Entirely speculative, but it was fairly common prior to the modern era in many countries to have one's heir crowned as co-monarch or a junior monarch of part of a wider kingdom (largely to help them secure themselves on the throne prior to the death of their predecessor). It was not common in England post-Conquest (with only one example, who predeceased his father) and therefore with our Anglocentric hats on we tend to forget that that the idea of having multiple (non-married) crowned monarchs simultaneously was not just a possibility but entirely normal for many monarchies.

So one might imagine a scenario where Tar-Palantir had Miriel crowned as queen prior to his own death (perhaps to attempt to forestall a coup by the King's Men) and they ruled together with himself as senior monarch, then as he lost capability Miriel took over the regency for him in addition to being a queen herself.

The only other scenarios I could see making sense are:

• Miriel was somehow and unknown to existing texts crowned queen of somewhere else for some reason, now rules as regent for her father, and is styled "queen regent" out of respect for her existing title even though it's not a Numenorian one.
• Tar-Palantir previously abdicated in favour of Miriel and a now-deceased husband, then took the throne back when her husband died (not implausible, since abdication was common among earlier Numenorian monarchs, though the tradition was long gone by this era, also, this would be entirely a show invention).
• Miriel was married to a short-lived king of Numenor and now rules as regent for their otherwise unknown child (presumably a son as if daughters were to inherit, why wouldn't Miriel be queen in her own right?).
• She is what we would term a "princess regent" but styled as "queen regent" because the writers, being American, don't understand this sort of stuff and didn't do any research on monarchical stylings.

[Corvus]

Oof, sounds like they have messed up the whole full of Numenor pretty badly. Seriously, it had everything you needed already without needing to make changes.

[Vinyadan]

Also not sure if they really captured how close Muriel and Pharazon are related, but that is a whole different can of worms...

Actually, it came to my mind that, according to the Unfinished Tales, some Druedain lived in Numenor and retained their distinctive characteristics for thousands of years, finally leaving and going back to Middle-Earth before the Fall. So Numenor wasn't a completely homogeneous population, and, if black Edain also lived there, it's not impossible that Miriel had one of them as an ancestor she didn't share with Ar-Pharazon.

[sluggerbaloney]

Reminds me of the "Final Fantasy: The Spirits within" movie. An amazing visual effects tech demo (for it's time) that absolutely nobody cared enough about to actually watch.

How you pay millions of dollars for the rights to something, and then a billion dollars making a TV show about it, and purposefully decide not to target the existing fandom is beyond me.

[KorvinStarmast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGOf_IGLA

That's an interesting discussion on the nature of the three elven rings, which will hopefully at least get passing mention even though they had to remain hidden once Sauron openly declared himself.

[Divayth Fyr]

Oof, sounds like they have messed up the whole full of Numenor pretty badly. Seriously, it had everything you needed already without needing to make changes.

Changes for the sake of changes seems to be a common theme nowadays....

Actually, it came to my mind that, according to the Unfinished Tales, some Druedain lived in Numenor and retained their distinctive characteristics for thousands of years, finally leaving and going back to Middle-Earth before the Fall. So Numenor wasn't a completely homogeneous population, and, if black Edain also lived there, it's not impossible that Miriel had one of them as an ancestor she didn't share with Ar-Pharazon.

Still, how common would be mixing of those two people? Druedain we see later on were rather... reclusive, and the descendants of Numenor apparently valued the purity of blood, particularly when it came to the royal line...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGOf_IGLA

That's an interesting discussion on the nature of the three elven rings, which will hopefully at least get passing mention even though they had to remain hidden once Sauron openly declared himself.

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the show made them weapons of war, openly used against Sauron...

[Fyraltari]

Still, how common would be mixing of those two people? Druedain we see later on were rather... reclusive, and the descendants of Numenor apparently valued the purity of blood, particularly when it came to the royal line...

Leaving aside that it's really silly to complain about the looks of fictionnal people who belong to a fictionnal ethnicity...

The Numenoreans are a people of mixed ancestry already. The people of Haleth's description in particular more-or-less matches Mediterranean phenotypes, so dark-skinned Numenoreans shouldn't be that uncommon.

[runeghost]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGOf_IGLA

That's an interesting discussion on the nature of the three elven rings, which will hopefully at least get passing mention even though they had to remain hidden once Sauron openly declared himself.

Sharing some head-canon regarding the origins of the Three, particularly Narya.

The Three were made as a Celebrimbor's great work, the pinnacle of his craft. Everyone else making rings: Sauron, the other Jewelsmiths of Eregion, maybe even Saruman, made rings for themselves. Celebrimbor probably wasn't making three for himself. Obviously he was far from selfless, so Vilya, "the Chief of the the Three" was near-certainly made with himself as the intended wielder. And Nenya seems very likely to have been purpose-made for Galadriel, with who Celebrimbor had a complicated relationship. (In parts of the Legendarium, he leads a revolt that ousts her - presumably non-violently - as the ruler of Eregion, and also makes the Elessar for her afterwards. So making her a Ring seems pretty in-character.) But that leaves the question, who was Narya for?

It seems unlikely to me that he was putting so much of himself into a ring that he intended to give to some distant elven lord like Gil-Galad, Cirdan, or Elrond. Sure, that's where Vilya and Narya ended up once he realized the magnitude of his mistake, but I doubt that's where he intended them to go. Again, he obviously wasn't originally planning on leaving himself Ring-less - if Narya had been intended for someone else, he would have sent it to them, not held onto it and then sent it away at the same time as his own Ring. It's possible that Narya was intended for some character absent from the page, but that seems unlike Tolkien. There's also the point, as mentioned in the above linked video, that Narya seems different from Nenya and Vilya - it doesn't (that we see) do the time-changing, world-preserving effect of the other two. It kindles hearts, and may have an affinity for fire in its beneficial aspect.

To me, the conclusion seems obvious: Celebrimbor intended Narya as a surprise present for his good friend, Annatar. Narya was made for Sauron. Which makes for a very Tolkien-feeling symmetry when it ends up on the hand of a different Maia, one who is truly well-intentioned, and who uses it to aid the eventual overthrow of Sauron.